Longer cranking...

[BBHD]

My in tank harness was the same as yours @notlimah. I just clipped the wire out of the plug behind the fender liner, capped it, sealed it and heat shrunk it. It is a dead wire in the harness as you have it unhooked now. I think Dodge used a couple different harnesses for their in-tank "fix". I just installed the same fass150 kit as ours on my uncles 01' he picked up a month ago. His retrofit harness for the in-tank pump did not go into the big plug behind the fender liner. It was a stand alone harness similar to the fass. 

[dripley]

Thanks @BBHD, that would clear up the confusion. Mine was like your uncle's. 

[notlimah]

Thanks @BBHD at least that confirms what I originally thought, that's its pointless keeping it. Just threw me off seeing it go right into that plug under the fender well! Makes ya think twice!

 

Well my startup issue is now down to about 5-6hrs of sitting nose uphill in my driveway and I'll have the longer cranking. The hardest part for me to wrap my head around is how suddenly it came back. It went from starting fine no matter how long it sat uphill or downhill to overnight going right back to how it was. Doesn't seem to be an over pressure issue as I pull power to the FASS and it still took longer to start. That makes me feel like it's either something electrical, or maybe my overflow valve being sticky or something? Could it be an APPS on its way out? Cam position sensor? Of course there's still the chance it's either the crossover tube O-rings or injector O-rings so that's still on the agenda, just don't have time to get either of those taken care of.

 

So for now I'll just have to deal with it being how it is. Park on level ground or maybe just carry a 19mm with me incase I need to crack injector lines to get it to start. Unless someone has any crazy ideas of what could be going on, this is where I'm at with this for now.  

Edited August 1, 2016 by notlimah

[notlimah]

So couple updates here...

 

1. I got a new spring and ball from FASS for my return line. My fuel pressure was bordering 15-16 psi and I didn't like that. Plus when I attempted to adjust my spring by stretching it out it seemed to make my pressures even more all over the place. It went from 19 now back down 15-16. I looked at the old ball and it has some indentations which I'm thinking adds to the fluctuating but I'm wondering if that could be causing a slight leak in return and causing the hard starts. We'll see once I have a chance swap them out.

 

2. Also it really seems like my lift pump won't do its 2 sec prime when my fuel tank is around 1/4 tank. No matter how long the trucks sits, uphill or downhill it won't prime. Once the truck starts there's a slight maybe 1 sec delay until fuel pressure builds. It's almost as though the lift pump isn't getting power. Bumping the starter doesn't build pressure higher then 1-3psi during these times either. As soon as I fill up, in the next start up or two, it's back to priming 2sec at key on. Really weird! But as long as it's still starting fine, and it doesn't seem to be an ECM issue since the WTS is functions as normal, I'm just going to keep driving!

 

I have some other things I want to try here in the next couple days so I'll keep you all posted on my findings.

[notlimah]

Ok, I changed out my return spring and ball from one supplied from FASS. Great customer service from them, just called and told them I was seeing irratic fuel pressure numbers as well as lowering numbers and they sent a new one free of charge.

 

The springs themselves were practically identical. About 1-1/8th  of an inch. It was the balls that looked completely different.

 

 

As you may have heard, FASS sometimes has reported issues with the return ball creating grooves in itself from the return spring causing irratic fuel pressure readings. I'm also hoping/wondering that maybe this could have been the cause for my loss of prime. We'll see! 

 

 

In the bottom spring and ball set you can clearly see the indent the spring has caused. I'm hoping that with the new smooth ball it won't get caught in the spring and keep my pressures more solid and as a bonus, fix my fuel leak. But I may be stretching a bit on that last one. 

 

Anyways, as always, I'll keep you all posted.

Edited August 22, 2016 by notlimah

[leathermaneod]

Hopefully this takes care of things for you. Hard stars are one really annoying problem with these trucks. Mine randomly has a slight hiccup after sitting overnight lately. This morning was the worst though, it actually cranked for a half second longer than normal. Idk what's up with that....hopefully it fixes itself or was just a fluke because I have no desire to tear into the fuel system again and I definitely do not have the time right now lol. I also had a really weird occurrence on my way to work today. I put the clutch in, and let the engine idle as I rolled up to a stop light, but my rpms remained a little high, about 820 or so. Very odd considering this was after the coolant temp was all the way up. It seemed to continue to do this as I let it idle all the way down between shifts. But then when I got to work, a few miles down the road, it seemed normal again and when I pulled into my spot and stopped, it was definitely idling normally, right about 800. In just hoping this isn't a pending ECM issue between this and the hard ish starts. No codes though, check with scan gauge this morning.

[notlimah]

Weird stuff that's for sure. I know even on mine (auto) when I let all the way off the gas and coast my idle seems to stay slightly higher then when I get close to stopping it will drop back down to normal idle rpms.

[leathermaneod]

Yeah idk what to make of it. Maybe it's normal and I just never noticed it before, or maybe it was just a fluke. Hopefully it's nothing bad lol

[notlimah]

Might just be nothing. I'd just keep an eye on it and see if it keeps up or if it goes away. Same thing I've had to do with my problem. At a certain point I just said, I'll figure it out when I can since most other ways to fix this would mean tearing into the engine more then I was capable of doing right now. We'll see though, truck fired up right away this morning so maybe its cured, but maybe not haha

[notlimah]

Alright guys,

 

I know this sounds familiar, but I think I've finally found the root cause of my problem. That stupid ball seems to have been the problem the whole time!

 

I replaced the ball and spring and it's been a week now and no issues. The truck has been parked on average 8-12 hours parked uphill in my driveway where before it would cause longer cranking, but this time, no problems at all. Immediate start up. I've also let it sit for at least 48 hours with no issues.

 

So it seems that the ball in the return line can cause hard start issues that are identical to what we would typically see when the banjo bolt washers on the back of the head, fuel T grommets, and crossover tube O-rings.

 

This would also explain why I originally thought my problem was fixed before because I rotated that ball around at the same I replaced the fuel tee grommets so I had thought the grommets were the issue at first, but once that ball either rotated or indented again, the same problems came back.

 

Anyways, just wanted to pass the word along as I've done EXSTENSIVE research on this problem and have never read of anyone reporting back that this was the root cause of their issue. So hopefully this will help someone in the future because I've been chasing this issue for quite a while now!

[notlimah]

Well this problem has come back up. Almost a month to the date. I'm almost 100% sure that the return ball is indented again and causing this.

 

I called FASS and talked to them but they didn't offer any solutions. I told him that I was seeing the exact same symptoms I was seeing prior to replacing the last spring and ball and he said well I can send you out another spring and ball but it's unlikely that you got two bad ones. I'd tend to agree but it also seems weird that the these check balls are going bad as quickly as they are. He asked what suction system I was using and I told him I was using the Drawstraw v system and he was quick to blame that for being the problem, saying that he's heard of people having issues before running this setup because running the 150 with that setup causes too much cavitation. I asked him if he could explain how drilling a hole in the tank and sticking a 1/2in tube down it is any different then drilling a hole in the fuel module and sticking a 1/2in tube down it? He couldn't answer that, nor could he answer why one would cause more cavitation then the other. Basically just BS'n me and trying to point the finger at any other product then their own. I then asked if I got the fuel pressure regulator from them if that would fix it and he said "well yea, you'd be able to get rid of the spring and ball so that wouldn't be an issue anymore" to which I replied, if that's truly the case, then it can't be an issue with Vulcan's Drawstraw then right? Again, no answer.

 

So he's going to send me ANOTHER (read third) check ball and I'll try that out, although I don't think it'll work.

 

I then called Eric at Vulcan and told him everything that just happened and he said the same things as me, BS! But Eric being the stand up guy he is, still wanted me to double check some things on the parts he sold me so he had me fill up my tank (I was just under 1/2 tank) and said to see if it does it again tomorrow morning after it's sat. He's thinking that their MIGHT be a pin hole in one of the fuel hoses in the module that could be causing it to let air in once the fuel level gets below it. I highly doubt this is the case, and I think he does too, but it goes to show how much he stands behind his products that'd he'd even offer that as a possible solution.

 

Anyways, I'm sort of ranting here a bit since you can click page one and see how long I've been dealing with this issues, I've about had it with dealing with this! I've narrowed it down to two possible solutions. One is I try and different check ball, like the ones Eric sells for the Airdog system. They are identical in size and purpose, but called two different things. Second is getting the FASS fuel pressure regulator, which I really don't want to get, since I already spent a pretty penny on the pump, another 140 just to get this issue resolved that shouldn't be happening in the first place is ridiculous IMO.

[leathermaneod]

Sounds like it's time for a Fuel Boss....

I am very sorry to hear about this though. No reason you should pay that much for a product and have so many issues with it. 

[notlimah]

Yea, it's really more annoying because the pump is working fine 99% of the time, and I know why it's not the other 1% but FASS doesn't really seem like they're willing to do anything about it. Talking with Eric thought and we came up with some possible ways to fix it. It seems like the difference in check balls that FASS and Airdog use are quite significant so I'm going to try that out as well as a couple other things.

 

I was also noticing slightly higher fuel pressure when I'm on the throttle so I'm trying to see if maybe that's adding to any of these issues. Going to check my alt voltage and see if it's increasing with RPM, also going to replace the VP's overflow valve and see if that might be getting stuck shut or something causing the high pressures to show.

 

Although things are fairly manageable since I know it's the check balls fault, if things go downhill from here, then it's definitely time to rethink my current fueling system.

[leathermaneod]

If you are somehow able to show that it is the check ball, maybe by substituting the Airdog one, and FASS still wont help you, I would go to BBB with this. I bet that would get them to change their tune! Its ridiculous that you pay up to $700 for a fuel system and then have even little quirks like this. FASS didn't just start out, they've been doing this for quite some time now and theres no reason for this. Maybe they are using a cheap supplier for the check ball and its too soft, or maybe its something with the tolerance in there allowing the spring to be stretched as the ball pushes into it. I always thought they should have a better regulator system on those things anyway. Theres no reason you shouldn't have an adjustable regulator like their other pump without the filters. 

[notlimah]

Yea we'll see how far this needs to get, but for now I just want to solve this issue. 

 

Im going to do some more research of my own in Viton vs Buna plastic balls. You can read up more HERE but basically from what I've read so far, Viton seems to be slightly tougher and resistant to more substances. According to Eric, Buna and bio diesel don't mix well and will weaken the ball. This doesn't neccesarily mean adverse effects on the fuel pump system, but it's degrading a component for sure.

 

As far as pumps and companies, I don't expect any lift pump company to have zero issues with their systems. They're just too complex to mass produce without some minor issues here and there. My problem is standing behind the product and at least giving the customer the feeling that they've exhausted all their efforts just as must as the customer has and I didn't get that with FASS. I think their product is great, just not completely satisfied with their customer service.

 

If they did cut corners in check ball manufacturing to save a buck then that's on them, but they should be willing to take the hit when problems related to that start being reported back.

[rancherman]

Inertia  within the pipe  will cause  'hammering'   just  ask  anyone  who has   put an  un dampened  FP  gauge.

You are supplying  via a half inch  tube,    the  inertia  within that  large area is just like a tsunami wave.      When it  gets  to  the ball or even before with   fittings, smaller  lines, etc...,   the  area decreases,  which means  the speed  increases...but the weight or inertia of  the large 'heavy' draw straw supply is  still pushing..  creating 'shock waves' if you will.. not far from a ram-jet type  situation.     and    that little ball  is getting a workout. (I'd bet it's  BUZZING  quite  wildly)  Not to mention any impulse waves created by the  rotor itself, which may or may not  traverse  backward.  I didn't read back on  what  pump you have,  but in a  150 or 200 gallon per hour system,  the speed  within that circuit  has to be  fairly  fast.. 

As far as the  'Viton, verses Buna N,      both are  diesel  'resistant'..  it's  the additives  that  we put in our fuel that   is  a little  'hard' on  Buna N   stuff.. 

Why yours  and not  about  1000 other guys  who have the same setup?   Bad luck with   poor quality balls  2x in a row... sure sure,  could happen I suppose. 

I'd suspect  an air leak first..  which the  system is  taking care of, and sending back to tank.    even the most  minute amount of  air on the suction side of  any  pump  make things quite violent. (hydraulically  speaking)

 

 

[notlimah]

Yea I understand that the ball is definitely going to be moving around a lot in there, but one month at two balls each seems sorta suspect to me. 

 

As far as Buna and Vitons individual strength, I should've mentioned that I was more concerned about 'additives' like you mentioned. I only run 2stroke but maybe that's all it takes to degrade it. I plan on doing a small experiment with both once I the mail shows up. 

 

Are you saying that there might be an air leak suction side which would be causing extra cavitation causing premature wear on the ball? If that were he case I really don't know where it could be coming since there's only two fittings between the pump and tank. Either way, other then taking them apart and re-doing it, I'm not sure how I could even tell if that was causing as issue.

[rancherman]

3 days ago,  I  was  wishing  I had  my   video camera with me;

 

I   was  removing  water from  a  ditch  with  a  small   semi trash pump.    Basically  just   pumping it  over the road to the  other  ditch.

There   was  about  3 hours of  pumping,  my little  pump  pumps just a tick over 9000 gallons per hour.

2 inch lines,   in and out.

 

Depth of  water was about  2 feet,  at the start.      Keeping the  suction side out of the nasty mud  was  a handful for me,  I had to  keep my  hands on it the whole time.

Point here is;

I was  amazed  at how  hard it was  to keep it  from   'WHIRLPOOLING'..    Even  the     tiniest  miniature   'tornado'..   and I could  hear  the  little  Honda  engine  load  get significantly easier.

.... easier load=  less  gallons per minute,  efficiency  went  south.

I tried   vertical,  horizontal  positions   with the suction tube.   various  depths too.      Invariably,  it   always   started a  tiny  white  tornado...     injecting a  tiny amount of  air  into the  line.

Lightbulb went off,     how  is  our  systems, especially   the  HP  pump models, with a draw straw,   any different  than  this??   I even  cut off the end of my  suction  hose  at an angle to see if it  would  help with the vortex effect..     It only   delayed it from  forming,  eventually  the vortex got just as  bad  as  the  uncut  version.

now,  keeping  my hose as  deep as possible  was the only way  to  MINIMIZE  the  whirlpool,  it never eliminated it.   These tanks are extremely shallow..  LONG,  but  shallow!   Cut that depth in half... and  I can  see how easy a whirlpool can start!   I  truly  think that original  sock on the  end is  more for  breaking up this effect,  more than being a pre-filter!  (but  I'll concede  that OEM  pumps are far less GPM  than  what  we are pumping!!!)  

My  thoughts  here are;  find some sort of  diffuser  on your draw tube... say a  larger  outer sheath with multiple holes  cut into it...  and/or  never let the  tank get more than half empty.

Fuel conditioners,  mainly the  flow  'winterizers'..   or  'cleaners'... with  benzenes,  alcohol,,  I'm sure I'm missing  half a dozen, LOL,    are  what's eventually  hard on the buna-n   products. 

Just out of curiosity,   how long did it take  for the original ball,  to  start forcing you to crank longer?   I  realize it took you some time to discover the  grooved ball..   

I'm  wondering if  FASS  went with a larger ball to  get  a more 'flatter, larger radii  ball.. which wouldn't  cut into the sealing area as aggressively.  ( can you see if the  sealing part, or 'margin' if you will,   has been  properly  machined?)

Can you tell if it  was  the spring,  or the sealing  lip  that was making the groove?? 

First thoughts  would be to replace with a steel ball!  but  I'm sure that ball's inertia  would  pound out it's environment  in short order!

Edited September 21, 2016 by rancherman

[Mopar1973Man]

That what I love about the Ol' AirDog 150. My draw draw is within 1/16 from the bottom I rarely ever let the tank to drop below 1/4. I never have slosh issues where the pressure gauge drops. Even then the air is purged back off to the tank again not interfering with engine function. The biggest problem here is the install of the drawstraw and how everyone tends to cut them too short. 

 

[notlimah]

You make a lot of good points @rancherman! The beauty of Vulcans drawstraw V is it uses the stock fuel modules but gets all of the restrictive features the module had stock. I still have he screen at the bottom of the tank but I did drill a 3/4 in hole in the bottoms bucket of the module as per Eric's instruction. 

 

From the research I've done, back around '08 FASS was supplying kits with 3/4in Buna balls but once reports of the balls being sucked or pushed back into the pump they started equipping the pumps with 5/8in Buna balls. 

 

So as per Eric's instruction, he wanted me to fill the tank all the way up and see if this issue would duplicate itself. Well the truck started up about as normal as it could for it being a little more chilly then previous days!! Super unexpected! I'll have to talk to Eric about what he thinks is the next step.

 

What's odd about this start up was I noticed my grid heater cycling and when it would cycle and pull the voltage down, I noticed my fuel pressure would INCREASE! How is this possible?