Longer cranking...

[notlimah]

Is that an extra hookup on the quad? Or does it pull the info from the computer on the VP?

[BIG-BLACK-DODGE]

2 hours ago, notlimah said:

I saw FASS setup to read fuel temps on a 4th gen I believe but it was showing how well their fuel heater worked.

 

The way how I understand the VP44 overflow valve working is that it wont be cycling fuel through the pump to cool it unless its at 14psi or higher. Otherwise fuel is just flowing through the pump to supply the engine as needed.

 

I do agree that on a low tank of fuel or longer trips that fuel will get warmer then shorter trips with high fuel tank levels, but even the fuel leaving the engine and going back to the tank and then directly back to the VP would cool off quite a bit I'd imagine.

 

But the fuel sits in the pump for how long before itbis burned? Not long i would say. I have fuel temp on my Edge Juice and after driving for a while snd then i stop, **** truck off, come back in 15 min and the fuel temp is 20 degrees higher sometimes. As soon as i fire it up it starts to drop. And my fuel pressure at idle is 13-15 psi... Any throttle at all and it drops to 11-13 so in that case it is saying no fuel is being returned to the tank because it's not 14psi or higher correct? Yet my fuel temps drop... That's because new fuel is being introduced from the tank and the other fuel is being burned up in the engine.

 

as for my  theory of the fuel being heated in the tank when over 14 psi fuel pressure's are used, I have a story to back that up. 

My buddy was living in his toy hauler for the winter.   He had a woodstove in his toy haulier and what he did was he built a tank that went right on top of the stove  ( just a little tank) and it had a sensor inside the tank so that when the water would get hot enough it would turn the water pump on and pump the water down into his water tanks which were below the floor .Then the water pump pumped new colder water from the same tank back up towards the woodstove. 

 Well after a few hours of this he started to notice that the whole tank of water was warm and in fact it was even heating his floor, he was just expecting it to stop the water from freezing not actually be warm to the touch. So the same thing is happening in my mind if you were constantly pushing fuel through a heated injection pump and back to the tank .

 

 

2 hours ago, dripley said:

14 PSI is where the overflow is fully open. Some fuel constantly flows thru for cooling. That is my understanding. Someone correct if I am wrong.

 

That would make sense to me because the way the stock feel pumps work they rarely see 14 psi  other than at Idol .

[leathermaneod]

There is also the theory that inlet pressure at the vp44 has little or nothing to do with output pressure, but rather that output pressure is created by the internal vane pump. I'm not saying it's true, and I don't think it's been proven, I wouldn't bet $1000 on it, but it's interesting to think about and maybe why the original fuel pressure spec was 10 psi....

[Me78569]

Fuel temp is read directly from the vp44 on the quad.

 

Fuel returns to the tank via 2 methods, overflow from the injector pop off and through the overflow.  The majority of the fuel returned to the tank is from the overflow.  Dodge said that "very" little fuel is returned to the tank via the injectors.  

 

Fuel can always flow through the vp44 regardless of running state, but at 14psi and above the most possible fuel is flowing through the system

[BIG-BLACK-DODGE]

Hey 

9 hours ago, notlimah said:

Is that an extra hookup on the quad? Or does it pull the info from the computer on the VP?

 

Hey what temperature is it where you are? 

I notice on my truck that if it's warm my truck definately starts better....?

hopefully this isn't my rings going...?? 

The only thing i can think if is metal is expanding because it's warm and it's sealing something.? 

I don't think it's my rings because i fired it up in the winter and turned it off imediately then let it sit for an hr and it fired right up no stumble or hick up or long cranking. 

I should plug it in over night then see if it fires right away... Ya i will do that, you should too just for kicks. 

Edited July 7, 2016 by BIG-BLACK-DODGE

[BIG-BLACK-DODGE]

I went out today and the temp of the engine was 69F on my Edge. I Cycled the key and BOOM, fired instantly..truck was pointing just slightly up hill. 

You know this has been going on with my truck 

for a year. In the  beginning I tried all sorts of experiments. I heard about how these 24 valves can be finicky when it comes to battery voltage. So after I cycle the glow plugs and the light goes out I noticed that if I waited a few seconds  until my voltmeter started to climb and then if I started it then,it seemed to start faster.

 Also when I changed my starter to a brand-new one the problem seem to go away for a while??? I've tried different fuel filters as well trying to eliminate every possible thing.

 I really hope you figure yours out because then I'll practically know what's wrong with mine ha ha. 

[notlimah]

Well you can read back through this thread and myself and other members cover a lot of possibilities and options and I list what I've done to try and remedy the situation. 

 

These trucks to like to be turned over fairly quickly and low battery power can effect starting for sure, but I've never experienced anything that was truly a slower turnover which resulted in longer cranking. Mine was always longer cranking to what seemed like a lack of fuel in the lines, then it'd fire.

 

And just so your aware, the 24v doesn't have glow plugs. What's causing that drop in voltage is the grid heater drawing current to heat intake air to help with combustion on colder mornings (I believe below 65-70*??) but it pulls a lot of current which is why the voltage gauge will drop so much, and also why it cycles upon first start up on colder days, turning the grid heater on and off. 

 

Anyways, I've been doing some experimenting the last few days and I'll report back here soon with my findings. I just like to average things over time and try and bunch of different variables to see if it changes anything then let you all know!

[notlimah]

********************************************************************************************************************

                                           !!PROBLEMS FIXED!!                                           

********************************************************************************************************************

 

Well guys, it turns out it was indeed the 3 grommets that are at the fuel T causing my issue. I changed those out 3 days ago and parked it nose up hill in my driveway like I'd done in the past and what caused the hard start and let it sit for 15+ hours each time and every time she fired up almost instantly! Really happy to finally have this over with and I really hope this thread can save some people the headache of figuring out what's wrong with their trucks if they have similar issues in the future.

 

Some interesting things of note though...

 

If you remember earlier in this thread I was talking about not hearing the lift pump (FASS 150) do it's typical *brrrppp* once you turn the key and are waiting for the WTS light to go out. Normally that was with me parked nose down hill, but I thought maybe it was just because I still had my fuel leak. Well after replacing the grommets I was parking nose up hill again to test if my fuel leak was gone and the first 2 mornings, the truck would fire right up, but every time I'd turn the key on and expect the lift pump *brrrppp* It wouldn't happen. No fuel pressure bump either. So I started recalling back what was different before and realized that I was just above a 1/4 tank of fuel. Well after 2 days of starting up just fine while pointed up hill but with no fuel pressure bump I filled up my tank. Sure enough, go to start, turn key on, lift pump *brrrppp* see a fuel pressure bump and fires right up! Next day pointed nose up hill, same thing! Maybe this is just something my truck does but it seems to not want to do that when my fuel is below a certain level.

 

Anyways, thanks to everyone who's helped me trouble shoot this issue! Really glad it's over with!

 

[Mopar1973Man]

Good too hear. I know it simple process but would you make an article on where you got the seals, part numbers, and how you installed it all.

[notlimah]

Yea I can do an Article Mike. I would've taken a few more pics had I known though!

[Hawkez]

Good to hear that you got it fixed and even more glad to hear that it wasn't anything more extensive.

[dripley]

Glad you got her fixed. I can be frustrating at times.

[Mopar1973Man]

On 7/8/2016 at 0:51 PM, notlimah said:

Yea I can do an Article Mike. I would've taken a few more pics had I known though!

 

It's been approved...

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2016 by Mopar1973Man

[BIG-BLACK-DODGE]

On July 7, 2016 at 9:54 PM, notlimah said:

Well you can read back through this thread and myself and other members cover a lot of possibilities and options and I list what I've done to try and remedy the situation. 

 

These trucks to like to be turned over fairly quickly and low battery power can effect starting for sure, but I've never experienced anything that was truly a slower turnover which resulted in longer cranking. Mine was always longer cranking to what seemed like a lack of fuel in the lines, then it'd fire.

 

And just so your aware, the 24v doesn't have glow plugs. What's causing that drop in voltage is the grid heater drawing current to heat intake air to help with combustion on colder mornings (I believe below 65-70*??) but it pulls a lot of current which is why the voltage gauge will drop so much, and also why it cycles upon first start up on colder days, turning the grid heater on and off. 

 

Anyways, I've been doing some experimenting the last few days and I'll report back here soon with my findings. I just like to average things over time and try and bunch of different variables to see if it changes anything then let you all know!

Yep read the whole thing. Interesting post?

 

And did i say glow plugs? I meant grid heater and totally understand the system. 

 

So you fixed it eh! Nice. Mine has started 100% 3 days in a row now but coolant temp was 69-71F last few days too.

And you say you never felt anything wet around the "T" fitting? Mine is dry as a popcorn fart but i do smell diesel fuel the odd time. I'll be changing mine out first and see if that was my issue too. 

The only thing i can think is that if it's cool enough the Rubbers shrink a bit and don't seal??? ( if it turns out thats my issue) 

I tried all these little experiments and just as i thought i figured it out i'd have the problem again. Mine is definately not as pronounced as yours which makes it even harder to diagnose. 

 

 

[notlimah]

In my experience outside or coolant temp didn't make things better or worse in starting.

 

The fuel Tee never appeared or felt wet. I suppose the rubber could expand or contract due to hot or cold but no way to really tell. Chasing these fuel leaks especially in the return lines is really difficult.

 

Is your problem only showing up when your trucks pointed nose up hill for a few hours or more? Or does it happen no matter which direction your truck is pointed?

[leathermaneod]

If you only notice this issue when the truck is "cold" I would try to make note of if it makes a difference wether the grid heater runs or not. I always notice a little slower start if my Grid's run. Just due to they batteries being slightly depleted I guess. I've experimented with my mpg fooler and the truck will start quicker without the Grid's even down to about 40°. i believe Grid's will run if iat temp is below about 65°.

[dripley]

With a small air leak the engine is always going the be cold for it to happen. It could take several hours for it to leak down enough to cause the hard starting. It is also possible for air to leak in and fuel to NOT leak out. 

[BIG-BLACK-DODGE]

14 hours ago, dripley said:

With a small air leak the engine is always going the be cold for it to happen. It could take several hours for it to leak down enough to cause the hard starting. It is also possible for air to leak in and fuel to NOT leak out. 

Yes i'm pretty sure that's my issue.

15 hours ago, notlimah said:

In my experience outside or coolant temp didn't make things better or worse in starting.

 

The fuel Tee never appeared or felt wet. I suppose the rubber could expand or contract due to hot or cold but no way to really tell. Chasing these fuel leaks especially in the return lines is really difficult.

 

Is your problem only showing up when your trucks pointed nose up hill for a few hours or more? Or does it happen no matter which direction your truck is pointed?

 

It has to sit at least 10-12 hrs for the issue to show up. It's always pointing ever so slightly uphill. Last 4 days now started great lol

[notlimah]

Yea sounds like your having the same issue as I was. I bet if you parked up a steeper hill it would happen sooner.

[BIG-BLACK-DODGE]

Geeze it has started perfect now 5 days in a row...

i did set the valve and they were pretty loose so maybe that plays a roll too? But i'm sure my problem is same as yours.

i'll know one day here when it's cold enough. 

Where did u get your rubber o-rings or what ever they are? Right from Cummins?