NightHawk

Smarty S03: Tuning & Testing of Can-bus Fueling

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NightHawk    55
NightHawk

HI Everyone,

 

As noted in the other thread, I am opening this one to review/discuss how to get the most street friendly Can-bus fueling out of the Smarty S03 Programing. I recently switch from a piggy-back type programmer to the S03 and noticed a large difference in the power ban. While the S03 programming has gotten flack over the years for being dirty/smoke tuning, I believe that has to do more with User operation rather then the programing itself. The information from the Smarty Website is posted below to get this thread started and to use as reference when talking the tuning.

 

S03 Street Friendly Can-bus Fueling to Me = Good power curve, good spooling and low smoke as possible. While can-bus isn't ever going to win compared to wire tap in the fueling department, I myself will never wire-tap because I don't feel its needed to reach my goal of creating a “hot” fun street 2nd gen that does the tasks of towing/hauling and general adventures (camping/hunting/skiing etc.).

 

I am currently running default SW# 4 programing with almost zero smoke levels compared to stock but much improved power. My truck breakdown is: SOVP, Stock Injectors, Manual Tune in ECM, HY35 Turbo and Swapped Nv4500.

 

Standard Smarty Programing (As taken from Smarty Website, please refer to website for further details)

 

SW# 1 : Fuel Saver (high timing/low fuel HEAVY TOWING is not recommended with this software.
SW# 2 : Only more fuel and Boost fooling
SW# 3 : Like # 2 + added timing
SW# 4 : “Soft” CaTCHER no added timing
SW# 5 : Like # 4 + added Timing
SW# 6 : Mild CaTCHER no added timing
SW# 7 : Like # 6 + added Timing
SW# 8 : CaTCHER no added timing
SW # 9 : CaTCHER with Timing

 

Revo Software Adjustments (As taken from Smarty Website, please refer to website for further details)

 

Torque Management – Available in 6 Settings

 

# 0 - Default
# 1 - Stock
# 2 - Mild
# 3
# 4 - Moderate
# 5
# 6 - Wild
( aftermarket clutch / AT Transmission recommended )

 

Injection Timing– Available in 4 Settings

 

# 0 - Default
# 1 - Stock
# 2
- for stock injectors
# 3
- for aftermarket Injectors
# 4
- for fuel economy

 

Injection duration– Available in 5 Settings

 

# 0 - Default
# 1 - Stock
# 2
- Mild
# 3
# 4
# 5 - Long

 

 

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NightHawk    55
NightHawk

Had a chance to put some freeway and country road miles on the SW4 setting. All driving conditions were stock smoke levels and the truck kicked back better mileage then with the piggyback box setup.  Freeway cruising, mixed city and country roads netted back 20.2mpg where the other box was high 18s.

 

A few hard facts for SW4:

Flat Freeway egt @ 60 = 550

Flat Freeway boost @ 60 = 3-5

Climbing egt @ 60 = 800 (950 with piggyback box)

Climbing boost @ 60 = 10 (12 with piggyback box)

 

 

I am going to try SW6 next to see if that is when the smoke appears.

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TFaoro    1,160
TFaoro

Oops, missed this when you started it. 

 

My main question to you is why aren't you running any timing? A timing bump definitely will increase your mileage. 

 

Are you changing any of the revo settings or leaving them all at default? 

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TFaoro    1,160
TFaoro
2 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

Still running stock injectors?  

 

On 10/29/2016 at 3:08 PM, NightHawk said:

truck breakdown is: SOVP, Stock Injectors, Manual Tune in ECM, HY35 Turbo and Swapped Nv4500

:thumbup2: 

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Me78569    1,897
Me78569

thanks. I see that now haha, must be that funky text.  

 

 

 

Anyways @NightHawk I would expect you to be able to run pretty much any canbus box turned up without any smoke.    way back when I had stock injectors I could run the quadzilla turned up with only haze down at sea level.   

 

 

I wish you had a way to data log so we could see how changes to the revo stuff altered things.  

Edited by Me78569
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NightHawk    55
NightHawk
35 minutes ago, TFaoro said:

Oops, missed this when you started it. 

 

My main question to you is why aren't you running any timing? A timing bump definitely will increase your mileage. 

 

Are you changing any of the revo settings or leaving them all at default? 

 

My research has not found much experiments on what each setting drives like compare to another.  I was planning on going thru all the non-additional timeing first then repeat with the timing tunes.  I have left all the revo items on default for now, that is the next step.  Wanna follow on your rig, have your tried SW4?

 

27 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

thanks. I see that now haha, must be that funky text.  

 

 

 

Anyways @NightHawk I would expect you to be able to run pretty much any canbus box turned up without any smoke.    way back when I had stock injectors I could run the quadzilla turned up with only haze down at sea level.   

 

 

I wish you had a way to data log so we could see how changes to the revo stuff altered things.  

 

Well not to argue but part of this thread is to find out why the smarty canbus is more smokey over the piggyback setups. 

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Me78569    1,897
Me78569

If you talk nicely to Tyler you might get him to Data log some baseline info from the smarty using the quad set to lvl0.  

 

We could compare the canbus fueling message vs rpm vs boost vs tps for both setups.    We should be able to find if the smarty is fueling hard lower than others etc.  

 

 

Thing I do know in regards to smoke and the smarty, Tyler did data log some timing for me and found that the smarty likely to sit between 17* and 24* of timing all the time, correct me if I am wrong @TFaoro 

 

Down low that will produce smoke.  The ecm commands as low as 10* in stock form.  I noticed a reducting in smoke by pushing that down to 8* when TPS was high and Boost was low.  

 

 

Don't get me wrong I love that you are doing this,  The more info we have the better, no if's and's or but's.

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TFaoro    1,160
TFaoro
18 minutes ago, NightHawk said:

Well not to argue but part of this thread is to find out why the smarty canbus is more smokey over the piggyback setups. 

That's exactly what data logging would allow. 

 

14 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

If you talk nicely to Tyler you might get him to Data log some baseline info from the smarty using the quad set to lvl0.  

Sure... annoying to drive, but I can do it if need be. 

 

14 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

We could compare the canbus fueling message vs rpm vs boost vs tps for both setups.    We should be able to find if the smarty is fueling hard lower than others etc.  

It does fuel MUCH harder down low, although I don't think it did ever hit the maximum of a 2 bit message (4095)

 

14 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

 

Thing I do know in regards to smoke and the smarty, Tyler did data log some timing for me and found that the smarty likely to sit between 17* and 24* of timing all the time, correct me if I am wrong @TFaoro 

Correct

 

14 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

Down low that will produce smoke.  The ecm commands as low as 10* in stock form.  I noticed a reducting in smoke by pushing that down to 8* when TPS was high and Boost was low.  

 

 

Don't get me wrong I love that you are doing this,  The more info we have the better, no if's and's or but's.

Yay for info!

 

 

@NightHawk I need to do a bit of data logging with the quad so we can work on anti-stall stuff, but after that I'll follow along with you and provide data logs. I'll get a video so you can see what aftermarket injectors are like with the smarty. 

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NightHawk    55
NightHawk

This should generate great info and hopefully clear the path to improved power for the vp trucks without a wire tap.  I am not against it but honestly, if i can hit xx hp without doing so, makes for a less complicated system.  

 

Once i get my rear driveline rebuilt (bad carrier bearing) and my front shortened i plan to move away from the stock injectors.  

 

It would be awesome to dyno the hp of stock timing vs. Modified as your data logs show the computer swings things around pretty good.  At some point timing makes power but where/when it does may not help the average dd.  The SW4 without timining feels way stronger than the piggyback box which did timing.

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TFaoro    1,160
TFaoro
On 10/30/2016 at 6:39 PM, NightHawk said:

The SW4 without timining feels way stronger than the piggyback box which did timing.

I have a feeling this is due to the amount of down low fuel being thrown at the truck, but I have been wrong before. 

 

If you want some logs of certain settings / levels, etc. Let me know. 

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NightHawk    55
NightHawk

Update:

 

Drove about 50miles with the SW4 tune and today uploaded the SW6 tune.  The change was immediate in the way the truck sounded/idled and my assumption is based on the increased the injection duration.  The truck made great power, little touchier throttle and definitely a steeper fuel curve.   The smoke (over-fueling) did not show its face, however due to the data below more fuel is present.  I am waiting to get my rear driveshaft rebuilt (thinking bad carrier bearing) before i do anymore testing.


A few hard facts for SW6:

Flat Freeway egt @ 60 = 650

Flat Freeway boost @ 60 = 4-6

Climbing egt @ 60 = 850 (950 with piggyback box)

Climbing boost @ 60 = 12 (12 with piggyback box)

WOT egt (5th gear @ 55-70mph burst) = 1000-1100

WOT boost (5th gear @ 55-70mph burst) = 22 (broke the j-hook on the hy35, need to make a rev 1)

 

A few hard facts for SW4:

Flat Freeway egt @ 60 = 550

Flat Freeway boost @ 60 = 3-5

Climbing egt @ 60 = 800 (950 with piggyback box)

Climbing boost @ 60 = 10 (12 with piggyback box)

 

Edited by NightHawk

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TFaoro    1,160
TFaoro

Those numbers make no sense to me.

Because you are keeping the same timing for both tunes, the only thing that should change is the throttle response. I'd be willing to bet both levels max the can-bus message as well 

 

Higher egts and higher boost with the same amount of fuel shouldn't be making those changes.... Need some data logs to know for what the heck is going on. 

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Me78569    1,897
Me78569

Yea I am confused also.  Seems somehting is off.  If timing was the same  I would expect the cruise numbers to remain static.  

 

how are you duplicating the test?  Same stretch of road? 

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NightHawk    55
NightHawk
14 hours ago, TFaoro said:

Those numbers make no sense to me.

Because you are keeping the same timing for both tunes, the only thing that should change is the throttle response. I'd be willing to bet both levels max the can-bus message as well 

 

Higher egts and higher boost with the same amount of fuel shouldn't be making those changes.... Need some data logs to know for what the heck is going on. 

 

 

14 hours ago, Me78569 said:

Yea I am confused also.  Seems somehting is off.  If timing was the same  I would expect the cruise numbers to remain static.  

 

how are you duplicating the test?  Same stretch of road? 

 

While can-bus is being maxed out, the tuner guide by smarty always states "how they get there".  After driving each the ramp up is much harder on 6 the 4, if boost didnt flatline so quickly it would have pulled harder til peaking out.

 

Same stretch of rd, same lane of traffic and time of day.  I'm sure i am not as accurate as a data log but injection duration is much larger in the low rpms of 6 vs. 4.  To use as example, imagine at 1500rpms 4 has 110% over stock and 6 is 115% at the same tps.  More fuel at the same engine speed would run hotter since the air exchange rate isnt too different.

 

I think the lack of timing maybe pushed some of the extra fuel heat at the same rpms into the manifold driving the charger harder just due to expansion of gases.

 

To me, the suprise is the lack of smoke as some many folks have said S03 tuning can run dirty.  Honestly, i think the timing curve is what creates the issue unless sw8 creates a smoke show which is tbd.

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Me78569    1,897
Me78569

however remember you only need x amount of fuel to move down the road.  doesn't matter how aggressive the tune is or isn't. 

 

If it was really %5, as an example, you wouldn't need as much tps to move down the road at the same speed, if you did try to use the same TPS your truck should be accelerating with the more aggressive tune.  

 

 

I see this in my data logs, no matter what tune I am running my cruise fueling message is always the same.  

 

As for smoke, I think the big issue with the smarty and smoke has to do with tuning a truck with bigger than normal injectors.  

 

 

Regardless keep the good info coming!!!

Edited by Me78569

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TFaoro    1,160
TFaoro
9 hours ago, NightHawk said:

 

 

 

While can-bus is being maxed out, the tuner guide by smarty always states "how they get there".  After driving each the ramp up is much harder on 6 the 4, if boost didnt flatline so quickly it would have pulled harder til peaking out.

 

Same stretch of rd, same lane of traffic and time of day.  I'm sure i am not as accurate as a data log but injection duration is much larger in the low rpms of 6 vs. 4.  To use as example, imagine at 1500rpms 4 has 110% over stock and 6 is 115% at the same tps.  More fuel at the same engine speed would run hotter since the air exchange rate isnt too different.

 

I think the lack of timing maybe pushed some of the extra fuel heat at the same rpms into the manifold driving the charger harder just due to expansion of gases.

 

To me, the suprise is the lack of smoke as some many folks have said S03 tuning can run dirty.  Honestly, i think the timing curve is what creates the issue unless sw8 creates a smoke show which is tbd.

 

Okay, this is where I have a huge issue with smarty's explanations. 

 

How can you change the duration on a "mechanical" pump while still injecting the exact same amount of fuel? That makes no sense on these trucks. Sure in a CR you could drop rail pressure and extend duration to give the same amount of fuel but we can't. So what is this so called "duration" they speak of. Sorry about the rant, it just bothers me when companies won't explain their own products!!!!!

 

Anyway, @NightHawk I wish you could see what the stock timing was doing. Through my testing, when you have to have a lighter foot, the ecm commands a higher timing number. However, we don't know exactly how the ecm is calculating load, so if in some way level 6 was creating a slightly higher load it would reduce timing and raise egts a little bit. 

 

Very interesting stuff! Get your driveshaft fixed to you can do some more testing :drool: 

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NightHawk    55
NightHawk
On 11/15/2016 at 8:52 AM, TFaoro said:

 

Okay, this is where I have a huge issue with smarty's explanations. 

 

How can you change the duration on a "mechanical" pump while still injecting the exact same amount of fuel? That makes no sense on these trucks. Sure in a CR you could drop rail pressure and extend duration to give the same amount of fuel but we can't. So what is this so called "duration" they speak of. Sorry about the rant, it just bothers me when companies won't explain their own products!!!!!

 

Anyway, @NightHawk I wish you could see what the stock timing was doing. Through my testing, when you have to have a lighter foot, the ecm commands a higher timing number. However, we don't know exactly how the ecm is calculating load, so if in some way level 6 was creating a slightly higher load it would reduce timing and raise egts a little bit. 

 

Very interesting stuff! Get your driveshaft fixed to you can do some more testing :drool: 

 

The idea of duration could be tied to the solenoid in the vp staying closed longer which keeps the needle at the injector open longer, however I am not able to confirm.  The stock timing does seem to compensate for the additional fuel better then expected, so I wish I could data log too.

 

The driveshaft (new one piece) will be here by next weekend but with this crappy weather prob just going to detune the truck back to SW4 until further notice.  The SW6 tune is not very "street" friendly, throttle/fuel comes on too hard for my liking and not needed for my on the street.  I don't even think its worth it to try SW8....

 

It would be awesome if you could post a run of SW4 on your rig to see the results.  I plan to get a set of injectors/turbo in the future to finish up the manual conversion (along with a PCM) so should get some more good data.

 

 

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TFaoro    1,160
TFaoro
18 hours ago, NightHawk said:

 

The idea of duration could be tied to the solenoid in the vp staying closed longer which keeps the needle at the injector open longer, however I am not able to confirm.  The stock timing does seem to compensate for the additional fuel better then expected, so I wish I could data log too.

 

The driveshaft (new one piece) will be here by next weekend but with this crappy weather prob just going to detune the truck back to SW4 until further notice.  The SW6 tune is not very "street" friendly, throttle/fuel comes on too hard for my liking and not needed for my on the street.  I don't even think its worth it to try SW8....

 

It would be awesome if you could post a run of SW4 on your rig to see the results.  I plan to get a set of injectors/turbo in the future to finish up the manual conversion (along with a PCM) so should get some more good data.

 

 

What variables are you wanting to see specifically? 

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NightHawk    55
NightHawk
On 11/27/2016 at 4:47 PM, TFaoro said:

What variables are you wanting to see specifically? 

 

It would be interesting to get a data stream of the fueling curve and smoke level of a highly modified truck vs. stock fuel system. My idea is to show that one application could work well for some and others don't so people can make educated decisions.

 

Small Update:

 

I had to use the truck for some material hauling yesterday (still waiting for the new driveshaft) so on the way out had SW6 loaded but on the way back loaded up SW5 (same fuel curve as 4 but with timing altered).  As we know timing does affect performance but all i can say is wow on how much more punch 5 has over 4, I mean the truck would just scurry away down the road like no other compared to 4.  It was evening so couldn't get a smoke output visual, but this tune is probably going to be my new empty tune with 4 being my tow tune.

 

 

Edited by NightHawk

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TFaoro    1,160
TFaoro
54 minutes ago, NightHawk said:

It would be interesting to get a data stream of the fueling curve and smoke level of a highly modified truck vs. stock fuel system. My idea is to show that one application could work well for some and others don't so people can make educated decisions.

I've got some data logs of level 1 if you'd like to see them. Interesting enough, level 1 fuels harder sooner than level 3. Timing is also more aggressive on 1 than it is with 3. 

 

I can't really do smoke level. Smarty will dang near provide 90% of capable fueling off the line and with my injectors all of Denver will be in a cloud. It's really horrible on large injector trucks.

That said I had Nick make me a custom tune that didn't touch timing and only defueled the smarty. Basically whatever the smarty called for the quad would allow 50% of it. I can data log on this as it's fairly clean. When the data log is displayed, you just have to multiply the fuel message by 2 to get exactly what the smarty is calling for. 

 

The attached doc is with no quad, so this is exactly what the smarty is calling for on level 1.

Quad-0-60-level-0.csv

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NightHawk    55
NightHawk
21 minutes ago, TFaoro said:

I've got some data logs of level 1 if you'd like to see them. Interesting enough, level 1 fuels harder sooner than level 3. Timing is also more aggressive on 1 than it is with 3. 

 

I can't really do smoke level. Smarty will dang near provide 90% of capable fueling off the line and with my injectors all of Denver will be in a cloud. It's really horrible on large injector trucks.

That said I had Nick make me a custom tune that didn't touch timing and only defueled the smarty. Basically whatever the smarty called for the quad would allow 50% of it. I can data log on this as it's fairly clean. When the data log is displayed, you just have to multiply the fuel message by 2 to get exactly what the smarty is calling for. 

 

The attached doc is with no quad, so this is exactly what the smarty is calling for on level 1.

Quad-0-60-level-0.csv

 

As copied from above:

 

SW# 1 : Fuel Saver (high timing/low fuel HEAVY TOWING is not recommended with this software.

 

Fueling harder upfront (produces more torque) could makes sense for mileage, but is total fuel the same as 3 because per the language 3 has the most fuel before "catcher" gets added.

 

FYI - the csv looks like hieroglyphics to me.

 

Edited by NightHawk

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TFaoro    1,160
TFaoro
12 minutes ago, NightHawk said:

 

As copied from above:

 

SW# 1 : Fuel Saver (high timing/low fuel HEAVY TOWING is not recommended with this software.

 

Fueling harder upfront (produces more torque) could makes sense for mileage, but is total fuel the same as 3 because per the language 3 has the most fuel before "catcher" gets added.

 

FYI - the csv looks like hieroglyphics to me.

 

The bolded part is a lie for fuel. No other way to say it. 

I'm not sure what their "catcher" is, but that's a lie too. Level 1 will max out fuel.

 

I re-worked the doc, so now it should make much more sense. 

"Timestamp" is the time the data was taken, so the top one is 10:17 am

"CanBus Fuel" is the fuel message from the ECM to the injection pump. It ranges from 0 to 4,095. This is how much fuel the truck is being given at that time. 

Engine load is the % of maximum fuel, so as as example the first line: 336/4095 =  8% When this is at 100% maximum fuel is being provided. 

Timing is when the injection event starts before top dead center of the piston. 

You know EGT, throttle position, rpm, boost pressure, and vehicle speed. 

 

So the biggest thing that concerns me is when I stab the throttle at line 6. I'm going 1mph and have 0psi of boost, but the quad is calling for 85.6% of possible fueling. That is a LOT of fuel, especially for my injectors. 

 

If you look at line 14, I'm at 1434rpm, 1psi of boost and 99.8% of possible fueling. Basically it's fueling as hard as it can with no boost. 

 

I will say I do like most of the timing curve. I wish it would ramp up a bit slower, but overall it makes me happy and gives good mileage. I'm sure you'd see a significant increase in mileage if you ran a tune with timing. 

Quad-0-60-level-0.xlsx

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Me78569    1,897
Me78569
1 hour ago, NightHawk said:

 

As copied from above:

 

SW# 1 : Fuel Saver (high timing/low fuel HEAVY TOWING is not recommended with this software.

 

Fueling harder upfront (produces more torque) could makes sense for mileage, but is total fuel the same as 3 because per the language 3 has the most fuel before "catcher" gets added.

 

FYI - the csv looks like hieroglyphics to me.

 

The Smarty levels are pretty missleading from what I have seen from Tylers Data logging.  Lvl 1 is in no way low fuel, it is actually fueling based almost %100 of throttle position.  IE at %25 throttle the tune pretty much asks for %25 fueling, at %100 TPS you get %100 fueling.  

 

Fueling curves would be curious for different levels, but that's a lot of diesel to burn.  

 

@NightHawk Also remember the butt dyno is hard to read accurately.   Torque is VERY deceiving,  It is nearly impossible to know if the truck makes more torque or if the torque curve purely ramps up faster.  Faster ramp up WILL make the truck feel faster but it may not actually be.  Hard to know without logging.  

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NightHawk    55
NightHawk
5 hours ago, TFaoro said:

The bolded part is a lie for fuel. No other way to say it. 

I'm not sure what their "catcher" is, but that's a lie too. Level 1 will max out fuel.

 

I re-worked the doc, so now it should make much more sense. 

"Timestamp" is the time the data was taken, so the top one is 10:17 am

"CanBus Fuel" is the fuel message from the ECM to the injection pump. It ranges from 0 to 4,095. This is how much fuel the truck is being given at that time. 

Engine load is the % of maximum fuel, so as as example the first line: 336/4095 =  8% When this is at 100% maximum fuel is being provided. 

Timing is when the injection event starts before top dead center of the piston. 

You know EGT, throttle position, rpm, boost pressure, and vehicle speed. 

 

So the biggest thing that concerns me is when I stab the throttle at line 6. I'm going 1mph and have 0psi of boost, but the quad is calling for 85.6% of possible fueling. That is a LOT of fuel, especially for my injectors. 

 

If you look at line 14, I'm at 1434rpm, 1psi of boost and 99.8% of possible fueling. Basically it's fueling as hard as it can with no boost. 

 

I will say I do like most of the timing curve. I wish it would ramp up a bit slower, but overall it makes me happy and gives good mileage. I'm sure you'd see a significant increase in mileage if you ran a tune with timing. 

Quad-0-60-level-0.xlsx

 

Could you clarify what you were doing on line 6 & 14 as vehicle speed has me baffled. Lines 37-55 are the most interesting too me as its a steady run (assuming 4-5th gear). What i would like to know is the commanded vs. actual fuel flow as that would be boost based too (right)?

 

4 hours ago, Me78569 said:

The Smarty levels are pretty missleading from what I have seen from Tylers Data logging.  Lvl 1 is in no way low fuel, it is actually fueling based almost %100 of throttle position.  IE at %25 throttle the tune pretty much asks for %25 fueling, at %100 TPS you get %100 fueling.  

 

Fueling curves would be curious for different levels, but that's a lot of diesel to burn.  

 

@NightHawk Also remember the butt dyno is hard to read accurately.   Torque is VERY deceiving,  It is nearly impossible to know if the truck makes more torque or if the torque curve purely ramps up faster.  Faster ramp up WILL make the truck feel faster but it may not actually be.  Hard to know without logging.  

 

The Smarty Levels are misleading, too bad we don't have a dyno with no defined time to do some data logging to learn what in the world happens in the tune levels. 

 

I have been judging the different levels of the Smarty (SW's) based on my common routes i have traveled from stock auto truck to where i am now.  I can say SW4 (no timing) and SW5 (4 curve with timing) pulled all of the grades with less engine load-up (same gear) on my entire route yesterday.  That tells me more power is available or being applied during the same conditions, butt dyno one could say to me its butt driveability factor.

 

 

 

Edited by NightHawk
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