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NightHawk

Smarty S03: Tuning & Testing of Can-bus Fueling

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So I have compared timing on the logs at 60 mph 1700 rpm + - 5 rpm and timing on sw1-sw7 sits at 18.35* if fueling is around 1300-1400.  

 

It is hard to tell on sw9 as the truck was a little to jumpy to get a stable speed, but I see a 18.28* at 60 with fueling at 1100 rather than 1300-1400

 

It is hard to tell for sure but I am not seeing much difference in the timing...someone else feel free to look

 

 

 

SW1 Cruise 60 mph

SW1 Cruise.PNG

 

SW3 Cruise 60 mph

sw3 cruise.PNG

 

sw5 cruise,  rpm's and speed were dropping, but you can see at the start of the log 1700

sw5 cruise.PNG

 

 

Sw7 cruise

sw7 cruise.PNG

 

SW9 cruise

SW9 Cruise.PNG

 

 

It is worth noting that at cruise state, on my truck 65 mph ~1200 fueling command the Smarty is actually not timing aggressive when you compare it to the edge comp or the old ADR tunes.   I would be curious to see the timing command on a truck with smaller injectors that required a bigger fueling command to move down the road.  I know timing would be higher, but how much I am not sure.  

 

Stock timing would be in the 17-18* region for my truck no at 65 mph. I see my best mpg when I am near 20-21* of timing at 65.  

Edited by Me78569
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Today on the way into work I ran sw3 and did 0-55 %30 pull and a 35-55 %30 pull 

 

Then I did sw3 T3 in the same situtation, then I did a 1000 rpm OD locked converter %30 pull to 55 

 

Building the logs now.

 

@pepsi71ocean  I am going to continue with this testing process unless you give me some sort of plan you want me to follow.   IE: 3rd gear 35 mph do this until this.  and also a plan on what levels you want me to run that will help you figure out what changes do what.

 

 

 

Heres the low RPM pull to simulate what @NightHawk does when he posted above.  

sw3t3 1000rpm od pull.PNG


FYI this same pull on stock tuning work result in timing be at 11*-12* across the whole graph.  so we are talking a 6-7* timing advance at 1100 rpm.



Here's data from the 35-55 pulls.  I messed up the log some as I didn't use enough throttle on sw3t3 you can see that in the canbus fueling and also the timing amounts.  I highlighted similar rpm points.    

Note orange as condifions are very similar and green and grey are closer, but canbus is starting to drift. %5 throttle difference in this situtation resulted in a %10 increase in fueling.  
sw3 vs sw3t3 35-55.PNG


My thoughts looking at this is I think the low rpm section of the maps are nearly identical between defualt sw3 and Sw3 T3, but as rpms climb above 2k rpm I am seeing a bigger jump in timing on sw3, note the last yellow line.  Pretty similar conditions, but .5* difference in timing.  SW3 T0 appear to have higher timing up top. 


I might try to rerun this in a more controlled situtation as I am not entirely happy with the differences in the run. 




Here is the 0-55 at ~%30 throttle for sw3T0 vs SW3t3  I am pretty happy with the run and the way I was able to keep things lined up.  The starting from a stop logs are much easier to match up.

However I cannot say I really see a difference when you factory in the rpm differences between the runs.   I see timing within 0.10* at multiple places 

SW3T0 VS SW3T3 0-55.PNG

And the data
SW3T0 VS SW3T3 0-55 data.PNG


At this point I really cant say the revo timing change from T0 to T3 did anything. Note the 3rd gear shift point,  drop to 1670 on the left and 1680 on the right, within %4 fueling difference and timing difference is 0.04* with rpms being 10 apart.  


Thoughts on this log?  Issues? Am I alone in not seeing a difference between T0 and T3?   the logs in the 35-55 mph range show a .5* difference after 2k rpm, but I am not sure I am close enough on conditions to call it one way or another.  

 

Keep in mind as well that these tests are all in the increased load area of the map, we are not testing steady state timing etc.   So the difference might be at another place in the map that we are not aware of. 

 

 

Full logs

sw3t0 0-55.csv

sw3t0 t3 0-55.csv

sw3 35-55.csv

sw3 t3 1000lockedod.csv

sw3 t3 35-55.csv

 

Edited by Me78569

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15 hours ago, NightHawk said:

There are a lot of great points in this thread and its a bummer the Smarty refuses to jump in to address some of the concerns.

 

Thank you for the invite to join in. That is much appreciated. I've linked this thread to the top and asked for a response so I hope to have something for you.

 

Thank you much, Gentlemen!

 

 

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26 minutes ago, BrianAtSmarty said:

 

Thank you for the invite to join in. That is much appreciated. I've linked this thread to the top and asked for a response so I hope to have something for you.

 

Thank you much, Gentlemen!

 

 

Thanks for linking it to the powers that be.   We can only see so much from even the datalogging.  I think what they ultimately want to know is what is the result of changing the Revo Settings.  IE, does T3 have more or less overall timing that T2 or T0.  Are those timing changes in 1 area of the map or is the entire map different?  

 

Etc. 

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Thank you Nick! Gentlemen!
 
I am not a professional tuner writing tunes for a living nor do I pretend to be one. Also I am not a qualified UDC Pro trainer.
 
As to our Catcher tuning, we do not have those tuning specifics publicized. And we do not dial in tuning for each individual customer and truck, but give those adjustable parameter options to the end user to fine tune his own truck, and Smarty does not do Custom UDC Pro tuning for end users. We do however offer a tuning platform offering everything one needs in the UDC tables and parameters. I would advise those gentlemen wanting the ability to make the best tune for their individual trucks to utilize the Smarty Touch UDC Pro platform. We have some good knowledge here on this thread, With Nick, Michael, and several of you other gents who have the ability to utilize the Touch/UDC Pro to best achieve the desired goals. You have EVERYTHING you need right there.
 
The older S-03 platform that was released 15 years ago was a great platform and ahead of it's time. One can utilize the "Basic" UDC on the S-03 to help to optimize tuning for the VP but to compare this 15 year old platform, even with the addition of the UDC "Basic" to what we have available to us in UDC Pro with the Touch, well, one can not compare to the advancements of the Touch and UDC Pro. The ultimate answer to what you gentlemen want is in the UDC Pro with the Smarty Touch platform. 
 
Thank you Guys!
 

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No arguements that udc pro / touch / mm3 is a great tuning platform with a wide range of applications.    That's up to the end users if they want to go down that road.  

 

I understand completely the role that smarty / yourself play in the tuning of hte devices.  You build the platform other people use it.  

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Wow, allot of stuff in here. 
 

@Me78569 Turn on the revo for TM, and set it down to 3 and see if your cruise control issues go away. I suspect that it will. Smoke control set your Duration to 3 or 4 and that should clear it up.

I am really courious to see what the effects are between the following.

 

SW9, TM3 T4 D4 <-Negative torque on truck I think too much timing.

SW9 TM3 T3 D4 <Spool is fairly good on this level, smoke what less smoke then with SW7

 

SW5 TM3 T4 D4 <-This is what I'm currently running and hit 17.5mpg keeping the truck under 65/68. EGT's are the lowest as well cruising. 

I'm couriers to see the difference between the SW5 and SW9, as SW9 it was evident there was too much timing, unlike SW5. With all of the other revo settings the same. I tried SW7, but the best luck I had was T3, but it ran funny the whole time.

 

This goes into my theory that Timing can be higher the lower the SW#, rather wise the higher the SW the lower it must be to compensate. As for Duration somewhere in the 3 to 4 range is good for 100hp injectors. I believe that larger injectors it needs to be higher, because lowering Duration seems to increase smoke and decrease pulling power under boost. 

Torque Management it seems that the higher the number the more pre boost smoke exists, It is odd that my truck on TM6 rolls coal, on TM3 it seems to be fairly controllable, on TM2 I need to adjust my TV cable for proper shifting, but as Dynamic Pointed out in my other thread that my valve body is most likely screwed up. Which would effect the whole test, because of the stacked shifting I have.

 

@NightHawk Did you try Upping the SW from 5 to 7 to see what it changes with your smoke issues, while leaving the rest of the revo the same.

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1 hour ago, BrianAtSmarty said:

 

 

Thank you Nick! Gentlemen!
 
I am not a professional tuner writing tunes for a living nor do I pretend to be one. Also I am not a qualified UDC Pro trainer.
 
As to our Catcher tuning, we do not have those tuning specifics publicized. And we do not dial in tuning for each individual customer and truck, but give those adjustable parameter options to the end user to fine tune his own truck, and Smarty does not do Custom UDC Pro tuning for end users. We do however offer a tuning platform offering everything one needs in the UDC tables and parameters. I would advise those gentlemen wanting the ability to make the best tune for their individual trucks to utilize the Smarty Touch UDC Pro platform. We have some good knowledge here on this thread, With Nick, Michael, and several of you other gents who have the ability to utilize the Touch/UDC Pro to best achieve the desired goals. You have EVERYTHING you need right there.
 
The older S-03 platform that was released 15 years ago was a great platform and ahead of it's time. One can utilize the "Basic" UDC on the S-03 to help to optimize tuning for the VP but to compare this 15 year old platform, even with the addition of the UDC "Basic" to what we have available to us in UDC Pro with the Touch, well, one can not compare to the advancements of the Touch and UDC Pro. The ultimate answer to what you gentlemen want is in the UDC Pro with the Smarty Touch platform. 
 
Thank you Guys!
 

 

I think everyone in this thread understands that you offer more customizeable tuners and that we're using the older one. What we want to know is in that 15 year old technology is how, what and by how much is each setting changing?

 

Right now we 'tune' with arbitrary numbers and what's labeled in the user manual and back of the S03 and what we'd like is to know what the artibrary numbers hold value wise?

 

Is that just something you guys will never disclose?

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2 hours ago, pepsi71ocean said:

Wow, allot of stuff in here. 
 

@Me78569 Turn on the revo for TM, and set it down to 3 and see if your cruise control issues go away. I suspect that it will. Smoke control set your Duration to 3 or 4 and that should clear it up.

I am really courious to see what the effects are between the following.

 

SW9, TM3 T4 D4 <-Negative torque on truck I think too much timing.

SW9 TM3 T3 D4 <Spool is fairly good on this level, smoke what less smoke then with SW7

 

SW5 TM3 T4 D4 <-This is what I'm currently running and hit 17.5mpg keeping the truck under 65/68. EGT's are the lowest as well cruising. 

I'm couriers to see the difference between the SW5 and SW9, as SW9 it was evident there was too much timing, unlike SW5. With all of the other revo settings the same. I tried SW7, but the best luck I had was T3, but it ran funny the whole time.

 

This goes into my theory that Timing can be higher the lower the SW#, rather wise the higher the SW the lower it must be to compensate. As for Duration somewhere in the 3 to 4 range is good for 100hp injectors. I believe that larger injectors it needs to be higher, because lowering Duration seems to increase smoke and decrease pulling power under boost. 

Torque Management it seems that the higher the number the more pre boost smoke exists, It is odd that my truck on TM6 rolls coal, on TM3 it seems to be fairly controllable, on TM2 I need to adjust my TV cable for proper shifting, but as Dynamic Pointed out in my other thread that my valve body is most likely screwed up. Which would effect the whole test, because of the stacked shifting I have.

 

@NightHawk Did you try Upping the SW from 5 to 7 to see what it changes with your smoke issues, while leaving the rest of the revo the same.

 

 

can you outline steps you want in the test?  Are those the only 3 settings you want run?  it is a lot easier if I have detailed directions for the situtations you want to see.

 

 

I am really not concerned or interested in solving these issues on my setup, only dataloging the settings you want data logged.  

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50 minutes ago, BrianAtSmarty said:

Good afternoon notlimah!

 

I am not aware of any plans to publish these details in our manuals in the near future.

 

Thank you much!

 

 

UDC Pro offers a ton but it's only on a touch which is of no use without one hence the request for help on our antiquated S03.  I would be willing to consider UDC Pro over a Quad if you gave a trade in option for an S03 to make the purchase enticing. 

 

Is that a lot to ask for, of course. As an alternative you could just let us use UDC via a S03 as flash module. I have no idea why this isnt supported since you can overwrite the S03 with a custom tune.....then flash a truck now.

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@pepsi71ocean I ran the 3 revo settings you wanted.  If you want me to do more sw9 testing I will need to pull fueling down by %50 in order to actually be able to drive it.  

Here was something interesting I found in Sw5TM3T3D4

sw5smoke.PNG

So I was pulling away from a light, ~%25 throttle only haze.  I reached lockup in 3rd ( where I circled in red) and the truck blew a thick cloud of smoke as RPMS fell.  The drop in rpms on this tune caused a significant spike in fueling.  


Here are some videos to show you the smoke output at %30 throttle on those 2 sw9 levels.    
 

 

 

 

The thing to take out of those videos is my useable throttle input to leave a light is 0-~%20 .  if I want to be smoke free I can't use more than that.   The current Quad tune allows me to use %100 tps input on take off with only haze.  So the quad gives me 4x more resolution to my throttle input offidle. 




Here is SW9TM3T4D4 35-60 mph pull ~%30 throttle
sw9tm3t4d43560.PNG

Here is SW9TM3T4D4 0-55 mph pull ~%30 throttle
pt1
sw9tm3t4d4pt1.PNG
pt2
sw9tm3t4d4pt2.PNG
pt3
sw9tm3t4d4pt3.PNG


Here is SW9TM3T3D4 0-60 

pt1
sw9tm3t3d4pt1.PNG
pt2
sw9tm3t3d4pt2.PNG



here is sw9tm3t3d4 35-50 mph pull %30 throttle
sw9tm3t3d43550.PNG

next we are going to compare timing between sw9tm3t4d4 and tm3t3d4





Here is the compare for the 35-60 mph pull on sw9tm3td4 and tm3t3d4  I hate to say it, but again I see nothing that supports that the revo timing settings actually change timing in the area of the map we are looking at.  Same thing, compare lines that have similar rpm tps and fueling, then look at the timing for both.  
compar t3 and t4.PNG


Again this lines up perfectly with the datalog I took awhile ago comparing timing  I see no difference in "passing" situtations.
revocompare.png



as always here are the full data logs so you can verify my findings and use the logs to help you.

heres the tc lockup causing smoke
sw9smoke.csv

sw9tm3t4d4

sw9tm3t4d4055.csv

sw9tm3t4d43555.csv

sw9tm3t4d41.csv

 

sw9tm3t3d4
sw9tm3t3d4065.csv

sw9tm 3t3d4.csv

Edited by Me78569
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SW5TM3T3D4 


Here's a 35-50 mph pull

Sw5tm3t3d4 35-50.PNG


I wasn't able to get much more on sw5tm3t3d4 but here are the datalogs
sw5tm3t3d435-55.csv
sw5tm3t3d4.csv



So @NightHawk and @pepsi71ocean

I took a compare of sw5tm3t3d4 and sw9tm3t4d4 and sw9tm3t3d4  35-50 mph on each pull all %30 throttle
sw5sw9sw9 compare.PNG


again I am seeing no evidence that timing is being changed from timing settings or between sw levels.     I hate to say it, but I have yet to see anything in the datalogs that shows me that the S03 uses more than 1 timing map across the board when you are in the passing area of the map.  

@pepsi71ocean   Any thoughts after the logging in regards to what the Revo Timing setting does?  Am I alone in wondering what the difference is? 

Edited by Me78569

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10 hours ago, pepsi71ocean said:

This goes into my theory that Timing can be higher the lower the SW#, rather wise the higher the SW the lower it must be to compensate.

I beleive this is %100 related to TPS input needed to move down the road.  The timing tables are clearly related to rpm and fueling / tps input.  I don't believe the timing tables are different, I think the amount of throttle input you use on various levels result in a different output timing in a given situtation because you might need different tps % on different levels for the same conditions.

 

As SW level goes up you get more fueling across the board, this means you need less throttle to move down the road and timing drops on the smarty when you use less throttle.  

 

I was driving down the road on sw3 and tps was ~%15 and timing was sitting right at 18.5* at 65 mph.  sw9 only required %9 throttle to move down the road at 65, but the lower TPS input resulted in timing being at 16*, if I came up to a hill and I increased TPS to %15 without rpms increasing timing would come up to match the same timing amout at sw3 at 65.  

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@pepsi71ocean 

So on my way in to work I wanted to try a different area of the map for timing, to see if we could spot a difference, and I found something very interesting...and a little sad, and I kinda know why the S03's upper end performance is lacking.

It appears that timing on the S03 is related to rpm vs egnine load ( we knew that)  HOWEVER,
.
..
.
..
.
that once load goes to nearly %100 timing is static at 18.02* of timing.  2 runs SW5TM0T2D0 and SW5TM0T4D0



max throttle timing..PNG


I would love to have a theory as to why timing is stuck at 18.02* of timing when TPS goes to max.  

If we look at the OEM tuning OEM tuning is ~3.5* higher on %100 throttle, BUT it is still dynamic.  Note the last half of hte graph has steady fueling, but increasing rpms, and oem timing is increasing.  Compare that to the S03 and you will see that timing is static even though rpms are climbing.


stock.PNG

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Oh this is great. Wonder what kind of non-technical response we will see from Smarty. Just what we always want. A static timed vp!!!!!!

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8 minutes ago, jlbayes said:

Oh this is great. Wonder what kind of non-technical response we will see from Smarty. Just what we always want. A static timed vp!!!!!!

every time you get rilled up with Smarty stuff I can't help but think of this LMAO

394.jpg

Just trying to get to the bottom of what the settings do.  That's it.  

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1 hour ago, Me78569 said:

@pepsi71ocean 

So on my way in to work I wanted to try a different area of the map for timing, to see if we could spot a difference, and I found something very interesting...and a little sad, and I kinda know why the S03's upper end performance is lacking.

It appears that timing on the S03 is related to rpm vs egnine load ( we knew that)  HOWEVER,
.
..
.
..
.
that once load goes to nearly %100 timing is static at 18.02* of timing.  2 runs SW5TM0T2D0 and SW5TM0T4D0



max throttle timing..PNG


I would love to have a theory as to why timing is stuck at 18.02* of timing when TPS goes to max.  

If we look at the OEM tuning OEM tuning is ~3.5* higher on %100 throttle, BUT it is still dynamic.  Note the last half of hte graph has steady fueling, but increasing rpms, and oem timing is increasing.  Compare that to the S03 and you will see that timing is static even though rpms are climbing.


stock.PNG

 

Well thats really interesting....high timing @ low rpm then just flatline up top.  We as in the entire S03 owners community owe you big Nick and simple thank you seems not enough for all the work you have invested.

 

I have one last request, but could you log SW04? Since the even is no timing add but i could still control fueling, seems like the best option. More fuel with oem timing control to me gets more power without pushing things too hard.  I think TST and FSM were on to something since both leave timing to the oem control, only add fuel.

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@NightHawk

Please specify what settings on sw4 and what conditions.  Again I am making up my own conditions because no one has given me a do x y and z.  That makes it difficult to get info that if helpful.  Do you want the typical 0-60  %30 throttle and 35-55 %30 throttle?  I am guessing you will see sw5 fueling, but it will be good to compare sw4 and sw5 to ensure they are the same.

you're welcome, just trying to clear the air some.  I enjoy understanding how our trucks work.   I gotta say I am %100 stumped by the WOT timing being static.

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1 hour ago, Me78569 said:

every time you get rilled up with Smarty stuff I can't help but think of this LMAO

394.jpg

Just trying to get to the bottom of what the settings do.  That's it.  

 

It's not even hate at this point. Just utter disgust from the company that jumps and shouts we have the best but you cannot know what it is. Then we get datalogs of the "best". ELL OHH ELL

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15 minutes ago, notlimah said:

Honestly sounds like the best way to use the Smarty without worry of timing being too outta control is to just run even SW settings and leave it be.

well the timing down low is a little high and doesn't pull like I would like, but thats my opinion.  

 

If we want to talk about performance side of things I can't see a good reason to hold timing so low at WOT regardless of rpm.   


A 2nd gen truck really needs some timing tuning.  There is a lot to be gained in terms of MPG and performance by smoothing out the timing curve in the passing situtation and cruise situtations at speeds higher than 55 mph when you look at stock timing. 



count me as confused to say the least.

Edited by Me78569

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I would encourage you to dig into the logs yourself and see what the results are and see if your opinion on the matter changes vs what my opinions have been.

 

I can't be the only one making opinions on the data.  

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