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NightHawk

Smarty S03: Tuning & Testing of Can-bus Fueling

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I hate to say it but Banks Gauges are not that great of a quality gauge. Being that it relies on the Bank Tuner to produce the signals. So running a Smarty tuner I highly suggest you use only the FUEL only tunes from the Smarty. I've seen a few of these Banks tuners are they are weird animals for tuners. 

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On 9/18/2017 at 6:31 PM, Me78569 said:

 

 

I dont have a smarty anymore, but if you look through the various logs I posted and compare RPM to timing I didn't ever see much difference.  This is one area I wish the people that know would go into more detail.  

 

I can say that I dont notice a big difference in offidle smoke when I do timing adjustments on the Quad.  I think %5 of the smoke issues are timing and %95 are fueling being too rich


I think it does have an effect. I can't run Timing on 4 on SW9, but I can on SW5.

I also discovered that most of my smoke is due to abnormal shifting patterns.
 

On 9/20/2017 at 8:49 PM, jlongjohn said:

Dripley,

 

I have not investigated the gauges much other than seeing where they are powered and grounded. I can obviously see the EGT sensor in the manifold, but does anyone know where the boost and trans temp come from? Is the boost from the map sensor and trans temp from the 8 pin plug on trans? Or does the boost come from ECM and trans temp from PCM? Thinking new gauges might be a good investment. 

 

It it is running good now upon startup and for a while down the road, after at temp for a while (like 30 mile trip to work) it starts not fueling. Seems like no fuel=no boost. Or can anyone tell me, does the boost value impact fueling in the injection pump or is it a byproduct?

 

thinking I want another tuner just to have something that displays all the sensor values from ECM and PCM 

 

I would follow the wiring to be sure where it is going to the motor.

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Hello Brian from SMARTY !

No gloves required over here.

Just a bunch of good heads.

SW7 - TM3 - T3 - D1 Present settings

 

Edited by jag
add info
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@BrianAtSmarty any experience with Banks gauges? Also for the new SmartyTouch do the sensor values come direct from the sensors to the tuner or does it use the PCM/ECM connections? 

 

Thanks!

Edited by jlongjohn
Fat fingered the damn touch pad again....

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The touch uses the OBD and j1939 port to read the sensor data other than EGT, that comes from the probe.

Edited by Me78569
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I'm currently running SW5, TM3, T4, and D4 and she sounds like an animal. I wonder if @BrianAtSmarty could elaborate on what the Timing setting does in comparison to the SW#.

I've noticed that Timing on 4 is quite doable on SW5, but SW9 runs like ****, and @Mopar1973Man thinks that it is negative torque from to much timing? Timing on 3 works good with SW9, even thought SW9 seems to keep the smoke down.

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12 hours ago, jlongjohn said:

@BrianAtSmarty any experience with Banks gauges? Also for the new SmartyTouch do the sensor values come direct from the sensors to the tuner or does it use the PCM/ECM connections? 

 

Thanks!

Hi John,

Nick told it correct.

 

And the Banks gauges I installed on my near new 89 and I paid too much for being uneducated back then. Re-branded auto meters back in those days with a stiff price tag. They worked well as long as I owned that beast.

12 hours ago, pepsi71ocean said:

I'm currently running SW5, TM3, T4, and D4 and she sounds like an animal. I wonder if @BrianAtSmarty could elaborate on what the Timing setting does in comparison to the SW#.

I've noticed that Timing on 4 is quite doable on SW5, but SW9 runs like ****, and @Mopar1973Man thinks that it is negative torque from to much timing? Timing on 3 works good with SW9, even thought SW9 seems to keep the smoke down.

Good morning Pepsi,

Timing raises in steps with each SW level increase.

 

Thank you!

 

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@pepsi71ocean  My truck seems to hit that negative torque point at 20.5* of timing at ~1700 rpm when at cruise.  The truck has a pretty hard time transitioning from cruise to "performance" if my timing is up that high.  

 

I know not all trucks are the same, but that might help with a point to gauge off of.

 

 

Edited by Me78569

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2 hours ago, BrianAtSmarty said:

Good morning Pepsi,

Timing raises in steps with each SW level increase.

 

Thank you!


Now is there a multiplier that the Timing (0-4) effects the SW#'s by. I noticed that Timing 4 says "wild" but is that a constant change, so saying SW5 with Timing 4 is not the same as SW9 with timing on 3 for example?

 

I'm trying to figure out what would be optional for me to run with this truck for timing when towing and in general running around.

 

It has been surmised that timing retards as boost climbs (with RPM), but I'm wondering if the timing moves say the whole SW timing map. Meaning the SW# timing changes if you change the Timing #


I think another way to put it is, does Timing 2 for stock injectors, or Timing 3 for larger aftermarket Injectors mean anything? Like do I need to run timing on 3 because I Have 100hp injectors.
 

2 hours ago, Me78569 said:

@pepsi71ocean  My truck seems to hit that negative torque point at 20.5* of timing at ~1700 rpm when at cruise.  The truck has a pretty hard time transitioning from cruise to "performance" if my timing is up that high.  

 

I know not all trucks are the same, but that might help with a point to gauge off of.

 

I noticed the same issue with my trial runs with timing on the different power levels.  I found that SW7 runs like crap on Timing with 3 or 4, but SW7 with timing 2 seemed to run good.

My wonderment is the effects that the Timing has on the different SW levels. I will tell you that the truck on SW5 with T4 is an animal compared to SW9 with T3, (T4 is way to much)

 

Edited by pepsi71ocean

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I'm in the process of a comprehensive write up. I've been spending allot of seat time tuning the truck with testing.

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8 hours ago, BrianAtSmarty said:

Good morning Pepsi,

Timing raises in steps with each SW level increase.

 

Thank you!

 

 

I will be slightly harsh and say, if you don't share more information/be more open about improving the S03 tuning capabilities then why did this get moved into the vendor's section for support?  The S03 is old, there is nothing secretive now that we can data log the VP trucks let along use the UDC pro.  So help us out vs. being all shaddy and provide actual information that can be used to not only improve how the product is used but also how it is represented in the aftermarket world.  I can almost guarantee that the more you help out on how to properly tune the trucks with revo the more people will be interested in buying one. 

 

 

Lets start by answering these simple questions.

 

1. Is the Duration say level 4 the same amount of fuel over stock in SW 3, 5 & 7, just a different curve?

 

2. Is Torque management the control of the fueling curve, but total fueling stays the same in say SW 3, 5 & 7?

 

3. The point of the different SW is to change the power curve/area under the curve, ie higher # = more aggressive curve?

 

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I have to agree with Nighthawk. I was hoping that this thread would finally shed some light on what the Smarty is trying to do and how to use it as a tuning tool. But despite all the data logging there seems to be just as much speculation and confusion as every other thread I have read on it. The fact that the descriptions of settings are so vague and the variability in their precieved enhancement is causing me to question it's usefullness. To me, it is useless to say that every truck is different and requires a scattershot tuning method of trial and error to find the right settings. We know the effects of various modifications and if we actually knew what we were changing we could actually apply the correct adjustment and avoid the downfalls ie. Smoke, hunting cruise control, etc. 

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Well I hope the data logging can help you guys figure out what does what, the info is there you just have to sort through it. 

 

 

Hopefully brian can help  with the questions at hand.  I did not datalog every combo, just what was asked.  

 

 

The "every truck is different" talk is actually very true.  This is a result of the method of the injection system.  However we can still rely on trends of what a setting does to tune with.  

 

A great example is Mikes truck likes 21*-22* of timing at cruise state ~65 mph.  My truck however HATES that much timing.    BUT we know that we need more timing in that region when it comes to altering the stock timing command.

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3 hours ago, NightHawk said:

 

3. The point of the different SW is to change the power curve/area under the curve, ie higher # = more aggressive curve?

 

  

 

The point of the SW levels increasing, without REVO, is to adjust how much TPS input is needed before full fueling is reached.   Here are 4 logs from each SW level,  I tested how much snap TPS would be needed to max fueling.

 

SW3 - even at %100 TPS offidle no max fueling

sw3.PNG

 

 

SW5 Took %50 TPS offidle to max fueling

sw5.PNG

 

 

SW7 took %40 TPS offidle to max fueling

Sw7.PNG

 

 

SW9 Took %30 TPS offidle to max fueling.

sw9.PNG

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2 hours ago, Me78569 said:

  

 

The point of the SW levels increasing, without REVO, is to adjust how much TPS input is needed before full fueling is reached.   Here are 4 logs from each SW level,  I tested how much snap TPS would be needed to max fueling.

 

SW3 - even at %100 TPS offidle no max fueling

sw3.PNG

 

 

SW5 Took %50 TPS offidle to max fueling

sw5.PNG

 

 

SW7 took %40 TPS offidle to max fueling

Sw7.PNG

 

 

SW9 Took %30 TPS offidle to max fueling.

sw9.PNG

 

The tps to fuel is what i was trying to hint at when it comes to fuel curve, think we're on the same page.  

 

I have two questions, have you done the snap with a stock tps/fuel % map just fun? With the TM defaults change per SW, thinking outloud. You change TM to set number, reperform all tests...how does the tps curve look?

 

I changed to SW5, TM1, T2 and D4 this Sunday and noticed two things. The pedal feel/tps curve felt almost the same off idle but mid range picked up smoke over SW3. I bet if i kicked back to D3 the smoke would leave, which brings to question on how D#s impact tps/fuel%.

 

🤔

Edited by NightHawk

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12 hours ago, Me78569 said:

Well I hope the data logging can help you guys figure out what does what, the info is there you just have to sort through it. 

 

 

Hopefully brian can help  with the questions at hand.  I did not datalog every combo, just what was asked.  

 

 

The "every truck is different" talk is actually very true.  This is a result of the method of the injection system.  However we can still rely on trends of what a setting does to tune with.  

 

A great example is Mikes truck likes 21*-22* of timing at cruise state ~65 mph.  My truck however HATES that much timing.    BUT we know that we need more timing in that region when it comes to altering the stock timing command.

Every engine is a little different, agreed. Age, state of tune, perfromance modifications all have an effect. The trend aspect is more what I was getting at. As in your example we know we want more timing there. But without extra equipment to read actual timing how do we know what we are adding and where with the Smarty alone to achieve the result we are looking for or even how they transfer from one sw# to the next. I guess the frustration has to do with the lack of specificity in what is happening.  Perhaps this is more than should be expected from the Smarty and it's intended purpose as a more general tuning tool.

 

Anyway, keep up the good work wish I had time to do it.

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8 hours ago, NightHawk said:

 

The tps to fuel is what i was trying to hint at when it comes to fuel curve, think we're on the same page.  

 

I have two questions, have you done the snap with a stock tps/fuel % map just fun? With the TM defaults change per SW, thinking outloud. You change TM to set number, reperform all tests...how does the tps curve look?

 

I changed to SW5, TM1, T2 and D4 this Sunday and noticed two things. The pedal feel/tps curve felt almost the same off idle but mid range picked up smoke over SW3. I bet if i kicked back to D3 the smoke would leave, which brings to question on how D#s impact tps/fuel%.

 

🤔

Yes i have, there are datalogs of it in my datalog article.  I cant post graphs later but you can go look now if you want.

9 hours ago, NightHawk said:

I have two questions, have you done the snap with a stock tps/fuel % map just fun? With the TM defaults change per SW, thinking outloud. You change TM to set number, reperform all tests...how does the tps curve look?

Here's a Stock WOT from a stock, VERY Smokey on my truck

stock.PNG

 

 

Here's My Quadzilla's Daily Tune, Only dark haze leaving a light at WOT

Quadzilla Daily.PNG

 

And here is the 2 canbus curves for the Quad vs Stock. Both are matched to RPM and TPS being at %100 from the above graphs.

 

Stock Vs Quad.PNG

 

 

Note the difference in smoke output doesn't take but ~%10 more fuel.  Stock would fail emissions here, my daily would not.  

 

 

Now compare the Smarty curves to the stock style curves. It is fair to say that hte SW settings are very fuel aggressive compared to a stock curve. 

sw3.PNGSw7.PNGsw9.PNGsw5.PNG

53 minutes ago, Direwolf said:

Every engine is a little different, agreed. Age, state of tune, perfromance modifications all have an effect. The trend aspect is more what I was getting at. As in your example we know we want more timing there. But without extra equipment to read actual timing how do we know what we are adding and where with the Smarty alone to achieve the result we are looking for or even how they transfer from one sw# to the next. I guess the frustration has to do with the lack of specificity in what is happening.  Perhaps this is more than should be expected from the Smarty and it's intended purpose as a more general tuning tool.

 

Anyway, keep up the good work wish I had time to do it.

Haha very little good work coming from me these days.  I don't have a smarty to log anymore for you guys, I am just pulling data out of the logs that I posted prior.  

 

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Sorry im new to all this,i just been using the set settings and zero revo stuff.would i benefit from adjusting things?not too sure how i feel about messing with timing ive heard thats a headgasket killer.like i said im new to this sorry if i sound stupid just trying to learn

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13 minutes ago, Jonny said:

Sorry im new to all this,i just been using the set settings and zero revo stuff.would i benefit from adjusting things?not too sure how i feel about messing with timing ive heard thats a headgasket killer.like i said im new to this sorry if i sound stupid just trying to learn

 

What are your mods?  

 

 

No being stupid, we are all trying to figure out what does what exactly.  

 

The Timing on the base SW levels seems very high.  If you look at the logs above you can see 18* of timing by 1400 rpm at %100 fueling.  However I don't know where timing reach dangerous on our trucks.  I don't think that timing is a bad thing, but I don't like to see that much timing unless load is low or rpms are above ~1800.  

 

BUT that is just my opinion, based on nearly no evidence beyond watching what OEM does.   If people aren't blowing heads off left and right I doubt it can be too dangerous.

 

 

If you can puts your mods in your sig we can help more.

 

 

 

Edited by Me78569

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Sorry i need to figure out how to put mods on my sig...truck is a 00 with 63 68 turbo,arp 2000 studs,103lb springs,hdpushrods,125hp injectors,airdog,dd clutch

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