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xc2

Today my Fass Died and now I'm standed

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So I'm going down the interstate in my 1998.5 24v and noticed 0 (zero) fuel pressure. Pulled over as soon as I could and shut down. My FASS usually makes noise. Now it is silent. It's dead. Here is what I know:

 

- Its getting electrical current. Upon bumping the starter, the test light (at the lead that goes into the pump motor) turn on for a bit and then goes off. So the wire to the pump it hot.

- It's not a fuel line clog. The truck does run after all. In fact, I didn't notice anything wrong such as lack of power or stumbling. And I'm towing a largeish RV. The gage was the only thing to indicate problems.

- Tried the loosing of the three bolts at the 'T". Nope. Nope. Nope. No debris binding things up. It's still dead.

I'm reasonably sure that I need a new pump motor.

 

So I'm in a bad place right now. On the road between one place and another. I have about 1000 miles to go before I arrive at my destination and can order parts. In the mean time, why can't I just reconnect the factory lift pump and be on my way? I already went to Orielly's and got a new replacement for the Carter pump that is still attached to the frame rail. So here is what I'm thinking:

- Replace the Carter pump that lives on the frame rail. It's still there, but disconnected. Well the wires are still attached but I'm assuming these were disconnected at the harness when the FASS was installed. I got a new one because who knows if it even works. I bought the truck with the FASS installed and I'm pretty sure its been there for quite some time. The old pump has opened to the air without fuel lines attached.

- Cut the wire that goes to the FASS (between the disconnect plug and the pump motor) and runs these wires the the "new" factory pump.

- Cut the FASS rubber fuel line and attach it to the new pump. Will the FASS rubber fuel line fit the nipples on the factory pump? Will this pump draw fuel from the tank and through the broken FASS? Again, fuel seems to be getting to the VP44 as the truck does run.

- I've had this truck for less than a year and as far as I can tell, the factory fuel heater/filter/water separator had been deleted. I've traced the rubber fuel line from the VP44 to the FASS and I'm not seeing any of this stuff.

Is a good idea or really bad idea? The fuel pressure sending unit seems to be attached to the FASS, so I would have no way of telling for sure if any of this is working.

This way I can get to where I'm going and deal with the FASS repair when I'm not on the side of the road and parked somewhere I'm not supposed to be. Either I fix this in the morning or call a tow truck.

 

Other questions:

- I can't say for sure how long I was driving without fuel pressure. By the time I noticed the gage, I'd say less than 4 miles. Maybe I another 4 before that, but my fuel pressure gage is not in a place where I can keep a close eye on it. I can't say *for sure* how long I drove it like that. Did I fry my VP44?

- As stated above, the truck still runs, drives and pulls, but I'm in a really bad place to be dealing with this. If I'm unable to get the factory replacement pump going, there is an RV park about 1.5 miles away. If I were to tow my trailer there, would I fry the VP44? What about to a RV park 10 miles away (no hills, 45MPH county back roads) where it would be more easy to deal with?

- Is there ANYWAY to tell the condition of the VP44 now that it's been driven without fuel pressure?

- If the VP44 did end up getting damaged, what happens next? Would it give any indication of impending doom, or am I going to be on the side of the road with no warning? No doubt in the middle of nowhere, or in a really bad place, with a toy hauler in tow.

 

Summary: My FASS pump is dead. I would like to reconnect the stock lift pump and be on my way rather than spend the next week in Utah waiting for a new FASS pump motor. However, if this means frying my injector pump (or attempting with one that is dead and doesn't know it yet) and not making it to Oregon for work next Wednesday, I don't want to do that. I'm more than willing to admit defeat and attempt the journey next weekend.

 

What would you do?

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 You could install the oe style pump and maybe some one has a test gauge to check out what pressure it is putting out.  That could get you to where you are going. As far as driving it to the rv park, probably not a good idea but a choice you will have to make the call on that. Lost my lift pump about 3 years ago and have no idea how long I drove it with no lift pump. I was in a situation I had to drive it some more and did, quite gently I might add. I was not towing anything at the time. It is still a risk and you could end up with a blown VP also. Good advice, Dont drive it. If need dictates you move it, what risk level are you willing to take?

 As far as the fuel lines fitting, all depends on the fuel line size and the replacement pumps inlet and outlet. It should not be difficult to adapt something to make it work. There is a chance the the power to the Fass will just swap over to the new pump if the fass accepts the oe connector. It also sounds like you will by pass the the filters when connecting the new pump. Are there not filters at the Fass pump?

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Yes, there are filters on the FASS.

 

I was hoping to leave the FASS connected to the fuel line. So tank ----> FASS ----> (new) factory pump ---->  VP44. In other words, I'm just going to cut the fuel line, attach to the factory pump. The VP44 seems to be able to suck fuel through the FASS and it's filters, so I'm thinking this will be okay. The wiring connector is different, but it is very clear which is (-) and (+). So the wires going in the the FASS motor will be cut post connector and then attached to the factory pump post/nuts. There is a reason that FASS provides it's own harness, so this is why I'm wondering.....

 

How's your VP44 doing now? Did it get damaged due to driving without a lift pump? 3 years without any problems?

 

 

Edited by xc2

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1 hour ago, xc2 said:

 How's your VP44 doing now? Did it get damaged due to driving without a lift pump? 3 years without any problems?

  Had my 3ed Carter lift pump go out when pulling my 5er. I watched the fuel pressure gauge go between 0 and 5 psi, mostly at 0, for 300 miles.  That was in the fall of 2012.  4 1/2 years later no problems with the VP. 

   If you have another pump put it on, check fuel pressure and go.  If the (new) factory pump you have is a Carter the fuel pressure at idle will be around 14-15 psi and wot is about 10 psi.  

Edited by IBMobile
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To help the VP44 dump in a quart of 2 stroke oil (TCW3) to every tank of fuel. That helps the VP a lot as they were originally designed for the higher lubricity fuel before the ULSD junk.

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8 hours ago, xc2 said:

How's your VP44 doing now? Did it get damaged due to driving without a lift pump? 3 years without any problems?

 

3  years later and no issues with my VP. Cant help but think when it does go, how much longer might it have lasted. Just pure speculation on that though.

 

Good advice above also.

 

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I had about the same happen to us with RV. And it broke at an RV park.  Couldn't work on it myself.  We had to have it towed to mechanic, that was only one in town.  He did a hack job, said it was fuel module and dropped tank then and would only install Airdog, filled tank back up with red dye fuel and etc...so I know what your gong thru being broke down.

 Good thing you can work on it yourself.  My carter only produces 7 or 9 psi.  Vulcan says that is about right, and good enough to get you some place to replace your FASS pump.   During regular business days call FASS and talk to Rick at 636 377 2140.  Explain problem to Rick, you only need to buy replacement pump.  Which is lots cheaper than entire system.  As most will try to sell you entire system.  You probably only need pump.  Not mounting hardware,  hoses, brackets, relay etc.  You can have it shipped overnight to a UPS store, if one is handy. 

 

Also here is FASS pdf instructions.  Don't overlook the "bucket test" on page 6 on instructions to confirm your what is wrong.     http://www.thoroughbreddiesel.com/performance_images/fass/FASS-Technical-Guide.pdf

 

We now travel with extra carter pump under back seat as my system goes from tank to pump to VP44. Being we ended up with a Airdog, Vulcan has a set up that now if pump fails all I have to do is disconnect hoses from airdog pump connect hoses to carter pump and same with wiring.  Vulcan recommended it, for people that work in middle of nowhere, like oil fields, etc...works great.   Still get a little diesel bath but not to bad. 

 

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I installed 1/2'' shut off valves either side of lift pump and pre filter to stop the bath and not loose prime while changing. I also carry an extra Carter behind the seat.

 

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*Stranded, not standed. Boy am I tried.

 

The first task of the day was to deal with the different sized fuel lines. The FASS runs 1/2 inch lines and the stock has 3/8. I stopped by an Ace hardware and found a 1/2 barbed adapter with the correct threads for the old pump found on the truck. I thought I was in business but the new pump had a smaller holes for the fuel line nipples. OGGGGG.... back the the parts store.

 

Then I spent most of the day running around Ogden playing games with O'reilly's. The first pump they sold me wouldn't accept ANY fittings. We tried all kinds of stuff - this pump must have metric threads?!?!? I don't know - just wasn't working. So we looked up at another pump and that one came with fittings, but they didn't have it in stock. So I jump on the motorcycle and ride 38 miles to a store to exchange. I expected fittings for 3/8 fuel line - and ones I got at Ace don't fit this pump either. OUG. So there is another Ace nearby so I go there. End up making my own 3/8 to 1/2 converter out of brass plumbing parts. Back to O'reilly's to to exchange this pump. But there is a problem - this pump had clearly been installed and then returned. Smelled like diesel and all of the bits were in a zip lock sandwich bag. OUG. I can't be messing around with a possibly bad pump, so I have the parts guy look around near by stores for another one. Back on the bike for another 20 miles to a store that has another one.

 

I just got back to the trailer and was relieved to find that my rig hasn't been towed. I fired up the genny and AC. I'm going to rehydrate, after my 100+ mile ride and cool down before I go install the Carter. I'm need to chill for a bit before my "diesel bath".

 

Hopefully my next update will be from 100 miles down the road......

 

015point9 - thanks for the info. I'll give Rick a call later in the week when I'm somewhere that I can deal with the FASS. And yeah, when this is all said and done, the replacement Carter is going to be kept around as a backup.

 

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this is why i think the in tank pump is best. 98% of all parts houses will have it on the shelf.  they have proven to be very reliable.

where are you broke down at?

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10 hours ago, Killer223 said:

this is why i think the in tank pump is best. 98% of all parts houses will have it on the shelf.  they have proven to be very reliable.

where are you broke down at?

I have one I pulled out. If you want it for free it's yours. Send me PM with address, I will ship it to you.

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15 hours ago, JAG1 said:

I have one I pulled out. If you want it for free it's yours. Send me PM with address, I will ship it to you.

Lol, I got my old air dog rebuilt and ready to be a back up, but hopefully my new fass 150 will last more than few years. They really need to figure out that little seal that separates motor from pump, then it mill be a long lasting pump. Ether one for that matter. Not sure if I want to drop a tank in middle of nowhere. 

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Okay, I got the Carter wired and plumbed up. Turns out the lines are 3/8 after all. I must of gotten confused with return line to the tank. Anyway, so I bump the starter. Nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada. At that point I say about every cuss word in existence and make up a few more. So I hot wire it the FASS - bingo! The FASS's demise was greatly exaggerated! Man, I must of misdiagnosed the wiring. But now the truck won't even start. Its dark. I'm tired. I call it a night. Of course I say lots of unkind stuff about myself for prematurely ruling out a wiring problem.

 

So the next day I run into town to get a 3/8 union to undo the cut fuel line thus bypassing the Carter I didn't need in the first place. It's there as a spare if I ever need it some day...... Got the air purged from the fuel lines and the truck fired right up. fewwwwa..... Okay, what's up with the wiring? I used a test light the other day and just grounded it to the frame, just because the alligator clip wouldn't fit in the pump's electrical connector. Must be a bad ground, right? So I dig out  the multi-tester, bump the starter, and check the voltage. I mean I check both the (-) and (+) at the connector. 12 volts.... Huh? So I start the truck and test the lead again. This time it shows 14+ volts. What the?!?!?!? So I plug in the FASS and NOTHING. What the?!?!?! So I unplug it, test again and now it's showing about 4.5 volts. Ahh, I think I'm very close the the root cause! So, doesn't the ECU control the fuel pump? Is it a bad relay? Corroded connections somewhere?

 

Whatever, I'm done being stuck on the side of the road and laying in the dusty dirt underneath my truck. I got one of those cigarette lighter plugs with attachable leads, so I run the wires out the back window and down to the FASS. BAM! 17lb of pressure! I clean up, put away the tools. load the Yamaha into the toyhauler, take a quick shower and was on my way. That was about 400 miles and 2 states ago.

 

I know enough to be dangerous, but boy did I sure learn a lot. Yeah, the road service subscription and my credit card could have solved the problem for me, but what fun is that? Besides, I'd just be sitting around waiting for a shop to open somewhere I didn't want to be.

20170703_130058.jpg

Edited by xc2
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I learned something from you now with this experience too ya know..... Always carry a wore out extension cord in the truck to make hot wire positive/ negative if ever I need to bypass the relay or the ECM. Good thinking xc2. Appreciate you sharing this story.

 

I like where your fuel pressure gauge is..... mines in the same spot on my 01 truck.

Edited by JAG1

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22 minutes ago, xc2 said:

So, doesn't the ECU control the fuel pump? Is it a bad relay? Corroded connections somewhere?

The FASS should be powered by a relay triggered by the ECM. That seems to be standard practice for the AD and  FASS full replacement systems. I mounted mine on the firewall drivers side and IIRC thats where the instructions said put it. Might have to follow the wire from the pump back to the relay. If every thing is working right you should be able to here it click at key on.

 Also when check the voltage key on no engine start you would see battery voltage at the connector. Start the engine and you will get whatever you alternator is putting out. Cant explain the 4.5v .

Edited by dripley

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I think those relays may not be 100% reliable so I carry an extra one, but another way is to cross the correct two pins on the relay and it can be hot wired that way. IBM told me which two pins to do a test ( should have wrote it down). There is also an electrical diagram on the relay that will tell you also

 

Dripley, you said ''powered by the relay'', but it's powered by the battery when the relay is triggered by the ECM I know you know this Boss... just want to clarify..

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Guess I should have said thru the relay. Nice catch there buddy.

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Dripley, I know, I know, your minds been on settin' up the rocket launcher for the fourth right?   . :lol3:

 I can understand....... Remember.... I'm the guy who was tellin a guy how to pull injectors on a 12 valve first gen but the thread/ subject was on  24 valve second gen forum. :whistle:

 

 

9 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

Lol, I got my old air dog rebuilt and ready to be a back up, but hopefully my new fass 150 will last more than few years. They really need to figure out that little seal that separates motor from pump, then it mill be a long lasting pump. Ether one for that matter. Not sure if I want to drop a tank in middle of nowhere. 

Too bad they haven't learned a way to separate the two areas of the pump via a longer shaft and two separate 'O' rings. If it leaked fuel it would leak onto the ground and give a signal it's time to change the 'O' ring.

Edited by JAG1

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1 hour ago, JAG1 said:

 

 

 

Too bad they haven't learned a way to separate the two areas of the pump via a longer shaft and two separate 'O' rings. If it leaked fuel it would leak onto the ground and give a signal it's time to change the 'O' ring.

There is actually a small hole drilled right by that seal, that's how I knew mine was bad, but I think in most cases it gets plugged with dust and doesn't leak or most of it goes to motor. When I took mine apart, hole was partly plugged, and it wasn't dripping on the ground it was just damp on top of the filter housing, got lucky I was under truck an happen to see it.

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11 hours ago, JAG1 said:

IBM told me which two pins to do a test ( should have wrote it down). There is also an electrical diagram on the relay that will tell you also

   JAG1 no need to wright it down.  You can find it in this article.

 

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IBM, I know you got internet while on the road. I may have to finally join the human race after all and do something about it.

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