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Fuel Article - Choosing a Tuner for a VP44 Cummins

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Posted (edited)

This article was created to shed some light on the facts for tuners on a VP44 Cummins.   

Here is a quck list of features for various tuners so you can compare.   The $K / Redline /TST PMCE are not included as they are a special breed of tuner that people run for a specific reason.  



Not all tuners are equal and there are a lot of opinions as to "what is best"  Use this to figure out what is best for you and your truck. 
tunercompare.JPG

Quadzilla ADR tuning video

ADR tuning reference guide 

 

Here is the Edge jwa cts2 User manual
https://edgeproducts.com/installation_guides/AttitudeCTS2_D10012600_REV00.pdf

Here is the Edge Comp User Manual
https://edgeproducts.com/installation_guides/30300.pdf

Here is the Edge ez User manual
https://edgeproducts.com/installation_guides/30200.pdf
 

Smarty / MM3 info can be found at
https://smartyresource.com/
 

TST Comp manual
https://www.tstproducts.com/pdffiles/remote45c.pdf

 

 

tunerCompare.xlsx


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Edited by Me78569
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4 hours ago, Me78569 said:

lolol yea  I needed a chart to show something other than emotion to people.

 

Thanks for posting this.  If I ever figure out what I should do for just a little bit more power towing I'll be needing chart.

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Posted (edited)

Interesting. 

 

Some holes in that chart isn't there? 

 

Doesn't quad claim 180hp for the Adrenaline V2 as the PM3 Comp? Heck isn't the edge Hot Comp up there too?

 

Per TST's website. 

 

"The PMCE (Competition) adds 180 HP and 450 lb-ft Torque (on level 9) for the standard engine.  The HO (High Output) engine (2001-2002) already has 245 HP and the PMCE (Competition) does not make as much of a difference and adds 80HP and 310 lb-ft of Torque.

 

The PM3 starts cutting back at 3000 RPM.  The PMCE (Competition) starts cutting back at 4500 RPM."

 

At least Chappel is honest that the PM3 Comp doesn't add much to an HO pump. 

 

The Smarty POD is custom tuning in a sense it not? And software #0 whacks the power to half of a stock truck. So essentially a valet mode?

 

The Vp44 record line is good. There comes a point where less is more. 

 

ETA - and where are we finding the quad for that price? I cannot find it anywhere for under the advertised price on their site.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ben

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Posted (edited)

I mislabeled the tst line.  The comp is out of stock and I am not sure if they sell them still.  The pm3 is what I was looking at I guess.

 

Even then I really doubt the quad or tst comp add 180 hp over stock.  If we went off of what the hp from the marketing department says the edge comp would be 120hp, edge cts without hot unlock is 120hp, with hot unlock lvl 7 then 150 hp, quad is 180 and tst comp is 180.  That's not not truthful from what I have seen.  Point is all wiretap boxes add somewhere in that 120-150 hp over stock.  The Dyno they run on is what makes the difference.

 

Dap has quads for 675$ as that is the map price.

 

 

I am willing to update whatever in the chart, but I don't want to get into the difference between pm3 vs comp etc as it gets too big. I also don't want to go purely off of marketing.  Also where do you see the specs on the tst website for the comp, I only see the pm3.

 

As for smart pod, that's not a 2nd gen feature, I did however mark those fields with * and explained what the s03 and udc pro and mm3 offer.  Check the comment field to the far right.

 

Input at this point?

 

 

 

Edited by Me78569
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TST,

With Mark being a Cummins engineer for 33 years, I'm sure he knows what's up. He is honest about the hp loss due to the HO pump, haven't seen that from the others who claim.

He is a very interesting person to talk to & pointed me in the right direction on how to help eliminate the shudder from the TST PMCE.

Since this mod & recently picking up a Ts MVP, (smarty s03 for sale) the shudder is not even a thought anymore & the truck has never felt this strong. EVER!

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6 hours ago, Me78569 said:

I mislabeled the tst line.  The comp is out of stock and I am not sure if they sell them still.  The pm3 is what I was looking at I guess.

 

Even then I really doubt the quad or tst comp add 180 hp over stock.  If we went off of what the hp from the marketing department says the edge comp would be 120hp, edge cts without hot unlock is 120hp, with hot unlock lvl 7 then 150 hp, quad is 180 and tst comp is 180.  That's not not truthful from what I have seen.  Point is all wiretap boxes add somewhere in that 120-150 hp over stock.  The Dyno they run on is what makes the difference.

 

Dap has quads for 675$ as that is the map price.

 

 

I am willing to update whatever in the chart, but I don't want to get into the difference between pm3 vs comp etc as it gets too big. I also don't want to go purely off of marketing.  Also where do you see the specs on the tst website for the comp, I only see the pm3.

 

As for smart pod, that's not a 2nd gen feature, I did however mark those fields with * and explained what the s03 and udc pro and mm3 offer.  Check the comment field to the far right.

 

Input at this point?

 

 

 

 

 

I agree and apologize for coming off a little confrontational. Wasn't my intention. 

 

I appreciate the work you've put into this and with the tuning/tutorials for the quad. 

 

In this day and age the quad is absolutely the way to go with what you are able to do. 

 

Thanks again.

 

 

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Canned tuners like the Edge Comp that do not allow custom tuning are built mostly for stock injectors. Using a canned tuner like an Edge Comp with larger injectors tend to have issues with smoke control and timing not meeting the amount of fuel being injected. 

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6 hours ago, jag said:

TST,

With Mark being a Cummins engineer for 33 years, I'm sure he knows what's up. He is honest about the hp loss due to the HO pump, haven't seen that from the others who claim.

He is a very interesting person to talk to & pointed me in the right direction on how to help eliminate the shudder from the TST PMCE.

Since this mod & recently picking up a Ts MVP, (smarty s03 for sale) the shudder is not even a thought anymore & the truck has never felt this strong. EVER!

The comp might do 180 hp I dont know, but I have trouble with that number because there is no timing adjustment going on and no canbus adjustment going on.    the  PMCE may be that fuel aggressive, but consider that the Quad 4K allows the user to demand 6000 us worth of fueling via wiretap and it is still a 180 hp box with timing and canbus tuning.   

Not trying to bad mouth any tuner, but wiretap is wiretap.  all it does is pull to ground for a set us once the psg stops.  

check post 1 for updates.

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6 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

all it does is pull to ground for a set us once the psg stops

 

all the wiretap does is pull to ground for a set microseconds once the PSG module on the VP44 stops.

 

Just to clarify your last state a bit more. 

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and I have always wanted to sit down with Mark over at TST, that dude knows alot of stuff that I am curious about.  

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On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 8:14 AM, Me78569 said:

The comp might do 180 hp I dont know, but I have trouble with that number because there is no timing adjustment going on and no canbus adjustment going on.    the  PMCE may be that fuel aggressive, but consider that the Quad 4K allows the user to demand 6000 us worth of fueling via wiretap and it is still a 180 hp box with timing and canbus tuning.   

 

That's what the Ts MVP does I recently picked up & installed.

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Posted (edited)

 I understand that.   I believe 180 hp when stacked with a ts mvp, not so much without it. I just don't think there is enough stock timing at 1800-2400 to make huge power increases. 

 

Stock timing at wot in that range is 12* compared to the 18-23* that the edge runs or the smarty asks for.

 

I don't believe that you have 280hp over stock by simply adding a tst comp and ts mvp though.  See what I mean?

 

 

Quote

 

Edited by Me78569

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Me78569 said:

 I understand that.   I believe 180 hp when stacked with a ts mvp, not so much without it. I just don't think there is enough stock timing at 1800-2400 to make huge power increases. 

 

Stock timing at wot in that range is 12* compared to the 18-23* that the edge runs or the smarty asks for.

 

I don't believe that you have 280hp over stock by simply adding a tst comp and ts mvp though.  See what I mean?

 

 

 

You don't. At all.

 

Unless you're some gunsel doing bubba math spouting off numbers when you ask him what he's done to his truck. 

 

Down the road I am excited to get a Quad and see if the rawness of the good old school boxes can be replicated without the smoke. And I thoroughly believe it can be. 

 

A lot of credit needs to be given to Quad for stepping up the game for the dinosaur 24v. It defines the middle child syndrome. 

 

I will not lie that I am not seriously intimidated by the whole tuning aspect. I am.  I just keep re watching @Me78569 videos hoping something sinks in. 

 

Edited by Ben

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1 hour ago, Ben said:

A lot of credit needs to be given to Quad for stepping up the game for the dinosaur 24v. It defines the middle child syndrome.

 

There is a lot of history of what happened with Quadzilla. It a nutshell Jacob from DAP bought Quadzilla and fired it back up and Spencer runs the show for Quadzilla now and Me78569 is the software guru behind the scenes that made the Quadzilla what it is today. 

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On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 8:50 AM, Me78569 said:

 I understand that.   I believe 180 hp when stacked with a ts mvp, not so much without it. I just don't think there is enough stock timing at 1800-2400 to make huge power increases. 

 

Stock timing at wot in that range is 12* compared to the 18-23* that the edge runs or the smarty asks for.

 

I don't believe that you have 280hp over stock by simply adding a tst comp and ts mvp though.  See what I mean?

 

 

 

I would think that is nowhere near that number. Maybe 175 - 200 hp max ????  

Then lets use the Smarty S03 for the canbus fueling with no timing added. 

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8 hours ago, jag said:

 

I would think that is nowhere near that number. Maybe 175 - 200 hp max ????  

 

that's exactly what I am saying.  It is well established that on a stock injector truck a canbus only tuner does about 65 hp over stock.  So that 200 hp from the tst /ts stack means that 135 HP of that 200hp is due to the TST comp to hit 200 hp more than stock.  200-65=135hp

 

that's why I say that all wiretap tuners add 120-150 hp over stock and that I don't believe a TST comp will do 180 hp on a stock injector truck with no timing and canbus fueling stacked with it.  It just does not make sense that a TST comp adds that much power on a stock injector truck without being stacked with something.

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You sure have a weird way of doing math.

Where are the Quads dyno results?

Mark laughed when he was told about adding timing box to the TST. (Really, you guys are never happy)

Seeing it just doesn't make sense to you, why don't you contact Mark at TST before cat calling on his product.

Better to know the facts first.

I see by your readings that you really don't like the TST or Smarty. 

 

 

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The only thing I am saying is it does not make sense when we look at numbers for a wiretap only box to add 180 over stock on a stock injector truck.  Same for the quad 180 hp over stock is marketing with help from a nice Dyno. You admitted that 280 hp from stacking the tst with ts was too high and then said 175-200hp over stock is what you guess.  If the comp did 180 by itself you are suggesting that the ts MVP adds between -5 and 20 hp.  That's what doesn't make sense.

 

  So how much does the ts add and how much does the tst add?  My math isnt weird it is adding the marketing claims of the tuners.

 

I am more inclined to say the ts adds roughly 65 hp and the tst adds 120-150 hp to make up a total of 180-200 hp over stock

 

I don't like the s03, mostly because marketing behind it.  Also because it has very misleading levels and it also sticks timing at 18.02* at wot and %100 duration.  It adds nearly 20* at near idle and %100 duration.  It's all datalogged.

 

Udc pro and mm3 are really cool. 

 

 I have no issue with the tst it's a very good wiretap box.  It's smooth and pretty smoke free.

 

 

If mark laughed about timing boxes that makes me very curious, there are significant gains with timing.  I repeatedly data logged nearly 1 second faster 0 to 60 by going from stock timing to maxing out timing.

 

I am not speaking out of my butt it is all datalogging info.

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I know I have a bias to quadzilla, I wrote the thing it is allowed lol, but I really did try VERY hard to open up as much data and info as possible to explain the black box of the vp44 system.    

 

 

I am not Cat Calling TST, the revised version of the chart has the correctly labeled pm3 and info that is correct for it WITH a notation about the Comp and redline and Quad 4k.  It is as factual as I can make it.    If you have something to add or edit please let me know.   I am not interested in a Quadzilla or nothing type topic, I think I have proven that.     

 

 

 

 

fYI here is a Quadzilla dyno vs stock because you asked ( I dont know why)

dynorunSvsP.jpg

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/98-5-02-performance-parts-discussion/229737-please-post-dyno-results.html#post2460183  Not from me or anyone related to quadzilla.  

 

150 hp over stock 43x ft/lb   over stock

 

another Quad

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/98-5-02-performance-parts-discussion/229737-please-post-dyno-results-4.html#post4273350

332 HP 952 TQ      I dont believe the torque numbers for a second.   

 

Another quad

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/98-5-02-performance-parts-discussion/229737-please-post-dyno-results-5.html#post4392607

300 hp 715 tq.  Again huge difference in 3 stock injector trucks with the same tune.

 

 

 

Edge stock injector

 

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/98-5-02-performance-parts-discussion/229737-please-post-dyno-results-2.html#post2536280

 

360 hp and 74x ft /lb

 

another edge stock injector

 

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/98-5-02-performance-parts-discussion/229737-please-post-dyno-results-2.html#post2536280

 

374 and 895 ft /lb   

 

 

 

 

All stock injector trucks, and VASTLY different number between them.  All dyno numbers prove is that they are unreliable when you are measuring using 2 different dynos.    we are talking about %20 difference in numbers between the same setup trucks.  

 

as another example TST's hp chart shows a stock truck at 170hp to the wheels, the first dyno sheet shows 210 hp to the wheels, my truck did 195 hp to the wheels for emissions.   We are talking about a 30-40 hp difference in starting dyno numbers that is being used as a baseline. for all these HP over stock numbers.  

 

 

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