Top hat valve seal and valve train

[Dieselfuture]

Has anyone used or know of a good loctite that can bond Vinton and metal for high heat. I'm probably going to try using something to keep new seals from poping up. My new seals will be made from Vinton and head is cast, I'll clean it up really good and hope for the best.

Edit, Has anyone used loctite 266

http://www.loctite.co.uk/loctite-4087.htm?nodeid=8803867197441

Edited August 7, 2018 by Dieselfuture

[mossyoak71]

11 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

Are you using top hat without machining the lip of the head? And how do yours fail, get tore or wear out.

I hope this thread gets someplace lol.

No, not yet I accidentally ordered them. The intake side still looks new. My exhaust seals look like a beaver got in the valve cover and just chewed them up. I've noticed that if I don't get over 35 psi they last but as soon as I have a couple of good hard 50+ psi runs then the start the slightest smoke then it just gets worse in time. Bugging the death out of me. So I'm watching this!!?

Edited August 7, 2018 by mossyoak71

[Dieselfuture]

1 hour ago, mossyoak71 said:

I've noticed that if I don't get over 35 psi they last but as soon as I have a couple of good hard 50+ psi runs then the start the slightest smoke then it just gets worse in time. 

That seems to be a common problem. My take on this is when truck was new it was used as intended with 20psi of boost for a long time everything had time to wear in place. So with time gap between seal and valve stem got looser and by the time dumb kids  got a hold of it and put injectors and turbos and tuners on, seal had enough blow by and it didn't work it's way up to get smashed by retainers. Idk I'm just guessing, but it had to be a problem and people started to use top hat seals. This goes for trunions too newer trucks have an oil gally to prevent scoring on roker and trunion. Same with roker bridges on newer stuff they are stiffened with webbing and not just stamped. 

So for now the question remains on what monkey glue we need to use to get away with regular seals.

[Mopar1973Man]

58 minutes ago, Dieselfuture said:

So for now the question remains on what monkey glue we need to use to get away with regular seals.

 

 

You asked... 

[Dieselfuture]

I knew someone would mention it lol. But seriously need something to keep them in place and something that doesn't cause damage to engine later if it ever got hard and got out.

[Mopar1973Man]

The only thing I can think of is a form of loc-tite. It would have to bond to the metal then bond to the valve seal without affecting the seal itself. 

[Dieselfuture]

Yes sir, I've been reading up on it but nothing set in stone yet. Loctite 680, 518, bla bla bla trying to find something that will work metal to rubber  (viton) 

You guys should really check out this place for all your seals needs.

https://ussealparts.com

VS-C59AV intake

VS-C59BV exhaust

VS-C59LV later model top hat

is might have intake and exhaust backwards but you'll need 12 of each, I got 14 just in case. 

[dave110]

I'll try to dig around here in the industrial field, but I remember at our Loc-Tite seminar the one point the guy pushed about what makes Loc-Tite work is absence of air, presence of metal. Loc-Tite won't harden if you let the cap off. It hardens when someone touches the tip to metal instead of staying away and dropping it on, and then puts the cap on. I doubt there is a Loc-Tite the way we think of it that will work, although they do make some glue products too.

Wonder if something like Lions Head gasket cement would work? It's a more pliable type of adhesive. Not sure how much heat it would stand. Loc-Tite doesn't like alot of heat either.

Edited August 8, 2018 by dave110

[dave110]

Took a look at the Lions Head bottle and it says it's not bothered by gasoline, oil, and specifically mentions diesel oil being OK. Just thinking, what about one of the many Perma Tex products? They're made to bond dissimilar materials in oil and heat and are pliable enough to handle he heat cycles where a super glue type thing gets hard and cracks. All you really need is a little extra grip to hold them in place.

Another thought. Have you contacted the seal manufacturer to see what they say? If this is a common issue surely somebody has a fix for it. Just throwing some ideas out there to try to help.

[Dieselfuture]

13 minutes ago, dave110 said:

Another thought. Have you contacted the seal manufacturer to see what they say? If this is a common issue surely somebody has a fix for it. Just throwing some ideas out there to try to help.

Yes and funny thing was he said I'm first who's asking him that lol, he's basically said I shouldn't have a problem with his regular seals that i listed above as they are better and if fitment is good no need to worry. I explained the whole deal on these heads and how they are smooth with no grove for seal to grab on to and that I can't use top hat seals because of a lip that seal rests on, that lip needs to be machined off for top hat to sit flat on bottom. Then I asked if he could make me some seals if I gave him dimensions, he said yes  but then said I'll need to get at least 15000 so he can make a die. Well I'm not about to open a shop to sell seals, which I thought would be in demand on our heads. So if we can get someone like dap call him and place an order, anything is possible. I think he said cost will be around. 30 some cents a piece at that quantity, so even if you sold them for $2 a piece to eliminate this problem, you'd still be making good money. And I know right now I would pay $5 for top hat seal that would fit without machine work. 

[Dieselfuture]

Just got off the phone with local shop, they now said to use PIONEER T-51444 for valve seals when applicable. So I got a 50ml bottle coming, not cheap ether. I hope this will do it with regular seals, so I don't have to make a mess grinding. I told them I was going to use a whole saw ant slip it over guide and grind that lip off, they said I was nuts and should bring the head in for machining, I said if I would of know last summer I would of had them do it then, 80 bucks, no brainer really. And they do use top hat, they must of been too busy to mention it last time idk.  They also do buy a bunch of stuff from Manton and the usseals. He said he doesn't want me to use this PIONEER T-51444 because it will be a bic.. getting them off next time, I said good because it will be you who have to pry them off next time I bring the head in  I guess we'll see if this crap works, I really don't want to use a whole saw and dremol, or do I 

[Mopar1973Man]

Always a catch...

 

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/pioneer-inc--4618/unclassified-16437/154fbd6278d2/pioneer-inc-metal-lock/t51444/5585201

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by Mopar1973Man

[Dieselfuture]

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Always a catch...

 

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/pioneer-inc--4618/unclassified-16437/154fbd6278d2/pioneer-inc-metal-lock/t51444/5585201

 

Yeah I seen that too, called them they said it was a special order about 20 plus freight, so I just got it on eBay, whatever... I just need something that will work. If they don't come off easy I don't care, I'm sure I can pry them off if I had to and peeling rubber off guide shouldn't be that hard. 

[BBHD]

I know I'm going to need to do this sooner than later.

Edited August 9, 2018 by BBHD

[mossyoak71]

19 hours ago, dave110 said:

Took a look at the Lions Head bottle and it says it's not bothered by gasoline, oil, and specifically mentions diesel oil being OK. Just thinking, what about one of the many Perma Tex products? They're made to bond dissimilar materials in oil and heat and are pliable enough to handle he heat cycles where a super glue type thing gets hard and cracks. All you really need is a little extra grip to hold them in place.

Another thought. Have you contacted the seal manufacturer to see what they say? If this is a common issue surely somebody has a fix for it. Just throwing some ideas out there to try to help.

I'm going to try the Lions head. Cheaper than a head and removing it for the work. Fingers crossed!!!? 

[Dieselfuture]

2 hours ago, mossyoak71 said:

I'm going to try the Lions head. Cheaper than a head and removing it for the work. Fingers crossed!!!? 

I wonder if it has holding power or is it just more for filling gaps, I know it's kind of sticky and if you let it sit long enough it actually does get pretty hard. This other stuff that the shop told me to use metal lock he's actually some sort of retainer. Wish there was an easy answer to all this. Can believe that someone didn't make Top Hat seals to go on this heads, although there are some top hat seals that look like they may work on that US Seal website but it would take trial and error to figure it out. For example this one, and there are other ones that look like they may fit over the lip. Dimensions are in description

 

http://usseal-eok.com/vs-292p.html

Edit,

Basically type in in the search field top hat and a whole bunch of different ones come out then all we got to do is see which one would fit by dimensions

Edited August 9, 2018 by Dieselfuture
Spelling

[mossyoak71]

1 hour ago, Dieselfuture said:

http://usseal-eok.com/vs-292p.html

Edit,

Basically type in in the search field top hat and a whole bunch of different ones come out then all we got to do is see which one would fit by dimensions

Edited 55 minutes ago by Dieselfuture

I just ordered the others but I will order 1 of these and while I'm doing them I'll check it out. 

[Dieselfuture]

10 minutes ago, mossyoak71 said:

I just ordered the others but I will order 1 of these and while I'm doing them I'll check it out. 

So looks like vs-292p is poly (?) and vs-292v is viton (fkm) are the closest for fitment. I'm thinking about ordering some myself, viton would be better so vs-292v should be the winner if they fit. The only thing is guide size is listed as .460 and ours (vs-c59bv) are .479  

[mossyoak71]

1 hour ago, Dieselfuture said:

vs-292v is viton

So just ordered 24 of the regular ones and 1 of these. The whole order was only $22. With shipping. Think we've been getting ripped off from other companies. (Parts stores). Just had to set up an account with them under my farm.

[Dieselfuture]

35 minutes ago, mossyoak71 said:

So just ordered 24 of the regular ones and 1 of these. The whole order was only $22. With shipping. Think we've been getting ripped off from other companies. (Parts stores). Just had to set up an account with them under my farm.

Yes, I've been screaming about them since I found out lol. Good people and awesome product. My machine shop also gets their seals from there, go figure. 

So I just got off the phone with Shawn (who said that you just spoke with him too ) and we did some more measuring, looks like vs-292v is the winner. It will be a little tight on the guide but should fit. 

I ordered 28 so I can have few for practice, and if they don't fit then it's only money that I've been wasting latly. But if they do fit, then I can open website to sell these lol. But no seriously I'm  that they work with little to no modification, he said I could shave a little rubber off inside and they should work according to rest of dimensions. 

Now I won't be sleeping till hopefully Saturday when they show up.