Kinda No Start Condition (Broke Down 4 months)

[livewire]

Going to try to put all the information into the first post so it will all be in here:

 

Truck -    2001 Dodge Ram 2500 extended cab, 5.9L Cummins, 113,000 miles (Barn Find)

 

I have had this truck since 78,000 miles, driving it two years now.

 

About 3 months before I bought the truck lift pump was not working and the guy (that found it in a barn) kept driving it around with a hard start condition for about a month before putting on an Airdog on the frame. He owned the truck for 3 months.

 

I buy the truck, runs great for a year and starts having a dead pedal issue. It was throwing codes for TPPS and the P0216 code. Replaced TPPS with a timbo unit. Problem was good for about two months and then came back with a vengeance and made truck almost undriveable during a warm day, cool or cold day, dead pedal 1 or 2 times.

 

Broke down and bought a Injection pump (IP) from Thoroughbred Diesel (TB Diesel) and installed it, ran better than ever for 6 weeks and then one day while coming thru Knoxville Tn, hauling a car on a trailer, it just died in 6 lanes of traffic. Long story short, I got it home and started diving in, truck was not throwing any codes, first thing I did was bought a FASS fuel stem and draw straw and installed it because the Airdog was working but making a really bad sound (beer can in dryer) and I wanted the filtration system of the FASS as well. I was not getting any fuel thru the injectors, 1 and 4 would push out some foamy fuel but nothing with any kind of pressure. The truck would startup sometimes when cold,and run for 5 -10 min and then shut down never to start again that day.

 

After I determined that I was getting good fuel to the injection pump, I looked into the IP, talked to TB Diesel and troubleshot some stuff with them and they agreed the pump had failed. Took it off and shipped it back, they tested it 2 times and said it passed with flying colors. They sent the pump back and I installed it, opened up all the injectors but #2 and bled the air out and trucked fired up like a champion, truck ran for 45 minutes while I was reinstalling bed from where I had installed the draw straw. I shut off the truck for 15 min to install two bolts near exhaust, truck never started again. But did throw a DTC Code P1689.

 

Talked to TB again, and they rented me a Breakout/test box to run on the IP to see if it was the problem, as long as the box was hooked up the truck would start great and as many times as you wanted, messed around with it for 2 days trying to get it to overheat and shutdown as before, no hiccups at all,  ran for over 2 hours on test box, but the high idle button on the test box would kill it if you pressed it. TB didn't think that was a problem and recommended I look into a short in wiring/ECM now that the P1689 code was present.

 

Tested out the injection control circuit using a couple of posts on here about the P1689 code, sent the ECM off to be tested they confirmed it was faulty and sent it back, finally gave in and ordered a new ECM and installed it yesterday, it was a plug and play unit and the truck started up the first time great, I shut it off after running for 15 minutes, started back up, but had a little bit of hesitation. It threw on some check engine lights and when I went to check the DTC's with my smarty, it said ECM Changed and had a P1694 code, smarty was still VIN locked to old ECM. I reinstalled my old ecm/core this morning restored the ecm and pcm to stock (unlocked the Smarty from the truck) and then reinstalled the new ECM and trucked had a hard start condition but finally fired up. Ran it for about thirty minutes with air on, accelerated nicely, it would rev up to 3000 rpm no problem, went to test drive the truck, as soon as I took it out of park went dead, will not even offer to start back. No DTCs, I checked fuel at the injectors #1 and #4 pushing out foamy fuel again, nothing out of #3 no pressure. Lift pump is maintaining 12-14 psi when it sits idling.

 

I have went over the wiring on this truck, checked every ground I can find, test lighted the IP plug, checked bottom of fuse box for corrosion, swapped out relays, Batteries were installed new about 6 months ago but had both of them tested, check my battery cable ends. I am at the end of my rope, i suspect a short in harness, but how do I find it? I did unhook the batteries each time before working on any electrical connection. 

 

Any help would be great, one guy asked me if my Brake lights worked???? I have not verified that but I have checked numerous grounds, I found one unhooked on under the brake controller, but it appears to have never been attached to anything. it was coiled up and wire tied together.

 

Please Help??

 

Edited August 25, 2018 by livewire

[Guest 04Mach1]

I would be looking for bad fuel lines and fuel line connections. Foamy fuel is a strong indication of your lift pump sucking air instead of straight fuel. Giving the fuel tank a little positive pressure with shop air will usually show any fuel line or fitting leaks.

 

You could try unhooking the lift pump and try to start the engine. If the engine starts easily there may be too much pressure on the inlet of the VP causing hard start and no start issues. Your lift pump should not operate in a engine off or engine start state. The lift pump should only be on in an engine run state.

 

Also if you don't have a fuel pressure gauge after the.final fuel filter I recommend getting one installed. You want no less than 14 psi of fuel pressure going into the VP at wide open throttle and no more than around 20 psi at idle to ensure long VP health.

[JAG1]

Just a couple tips;

 

When you get it running the next time try removing the fuel cap to see if problem goes away as you may have a clogged tank vent. This combined with air sucking into the fuel lines on the suction side could be compounding the trouble.

 

Make sure factory fuel filter cap has the o ring set correctly and is torqued to 25 lbs. I once had your symptoms due to thinking it was 'tight enough' after checking, it revealed that was my problem

 

Foamy fuel could be that the return fuel is affecting what the draw straw is lifting up if too close. Not sure on this one though as the drawstraw when the tank is full should be plenty deep into the fuel and away from air mixed fuel.

 

The quick connect fuel lines can sometimes be a problem and since changing out my fuel system from inadequate in tank system to Vulcan Raptor 150 and 1/2 inch all the way, I've been chasing air suction problems during cold temps and fuel being thicker. I know its weird...... It used to suck air and bounce around all the time, but with each change and improvement made to the lines while hunting this down, made for better behavior of the F/P gauge. Cutting out the quick connects and getting the right size hose clamps helped after having wrong size clamps. making sure everything is tight. I even had to emery cloth the new VP fuel inlet fitting since that weeped fuel.

 

Both my second gens have the return fuel going into the fill neck using the fill vent on the side. Which in turn allowed me to use the factory return nipple on tank module for more reliable tank vent. Tank vent is run up high with a piece of tubing near the fill neck with a small gas filter attached to the end. This helps insure that hot fuel and air mixed fuel does not get picked up by the drawstraw.

 

For whatever its worth I hope this helps.

Edited August 27, 2018 by JAG1

[livewire]

Ok after checking everything again I can get the truck to start after winding it over for a long time, takes several tries. Once it starts it will idle for a long time, once you put it in gear and start trying to back up it will start bucking and cutting out, if it goes dead it is very hard to start, could a bad injector sticking open cause this to happen? When backing up the hill from my shop, it will start surging and bumping the RPM gauge away. If you hold it at a steady RPM it will run and then just stumble a couple of hundred rpm, just a hiccup. when you put it into drive it goes dead almost everytime. I have a FASS 150 mounted on the frame beside the fuel tank, it is a strong steady supply of fuel to the VP44. The fass system has the fuel filter and water remover/separator on it. It removes the air from the fuel and returns it to filler neck. Tank is venting well, I have also had the fuel cap loose during this whole process. I installed a manual gauge about 12" before the VP44, it builds up to about 18 psi and maintains that during running, but it does not pump as long as the switch is forward while starting. Tank is 3/4 of the way full I had filled up about 110 miles before the breakdown.

 

What to do next??????????????????????????????????

[Mopar1973Man]

Loss of prime... The the lift pump is suppose to run 50% duty cycle during starting. Typically about 7 to 12 psi during cranking.

[livewire]

How is it losing its prime, sucking air?? After the truck broke down I installed the new fuel supply system. Draw straw, FASS system all the way to VP44 with 1/2 fuel lines and checked return lines all the way to tank still no start. i had the bed off during this process, the return line has a nice flow back to the tank when running?

[Mopar1973Man]

Suction lines will never leak outwards or drip they will constantly suck air in allowing fuel to return to the tank causing loss of prime. In other words if air is introduced the injectors will not fire. Air is compressible.

[livewire]

Ok my truck has been broke down for several months, I took it to a diesel mechanic about 2.5 months ago. He has not been able to spend much time on it, (he works on big rigs with contracts) so I got back on it this week.

 

He was under the impression that the injectors were bad because the truck would smoke terrible when first started and constantly smoke, just a little at idle, but would smoke pretty good if you laid into it and ran it between 2000  - 2700 rpm until it cleared the loaded up fuel out, the longer it sat and idled the more it loaded and up until you run it hard. I went ahead and threw a new set of injectors in and it did nothing, no improvement. It needed injectors as two were in bad shape, really clogged and both of these, number 2 and 4, the hold down clamps were loose as well, bolts were literally loose/backed off on the clamp. So the truck now has a FASS draw straw and lift pump mounted near tank and a new injector pump and new +75hp injectors.

 

When the truck starts, (hard to start lots of cranking) it will run until it gets to operating temp and then it will shut off, after this is will not start back. No fuel thru injector pump as it will not smoke at all or even try to start. We did some circuit testing and found that the voltage on the injector pump plug ground (7.4V) was out of range after the truck shut down. We pulled the connectors out of the VP44 connector and checked those, we checked for shorts and loose connections. all the time we were working on it, the voltage would get closer and closer to the proper value as the truck cooled off. (checking ground with test light off of hot battery cable that tells voltage) After completely cooling (12.3V on ground), the truck starts back up and runs until it gets hot again. I had checked the ohms on the coolant temp sensor in the beginning and it checked ok when the engine was cold and the gauge shows proper temperature in cab as well. After it shut down, the guy helping me was checking voltage values again, he unplugged the coolant temperature sensor, when he did the open door bell chimed when he unplugged the sensor. We tried starting the truck with the ECT unplugged and it will start and run like a sewing machine as long as you start it with the throttle wide open and hold it at a High RPM but it will not idle, we hooked the ECT back up and it shuts down and would not start back. We checked the ECT with the engine hot and had 2.81 K-ohms, after removing it from the engine it was closer to the required values (175 - 244 k-ohms) but still low like 78 K-ohms. I ordered a new ECT this afternoon. Would this cause my truck to malfunctions this drastically, we monitored the truck with a scan tool and the ECT never showed out of range and the entire Injector pump to Cam sensor to ECT to MAP sensor circuit stayed in range according to the mechanic. I never got to use the scan tool on it myself but that is what he checked when he first got the truck. it seems that something is cutting the fuel off at the injector pump. I know #5 pin on the VP44 connector is the fuel stop but will the ECT cause it to do this?

[dripley]

Any trouble codes?

[OBS_Chummins]

I am researching almost the exact same problem on my 01 24v. I saw on one of the other posts they are talking about shitty factory grounds running to the passenger battery that supply the pcm, vp, ecm, and fuse block. That might be my next plan unless someone has better ideas. It seemed like my truck was more likely to act up when i wiggled the wires going around the alt. Mine also seems to have more issues warmed up like you described though. It also used to have foil on the wire going over the alt to the passenger battery from a previous owner which also brings me to this conclusion.

 

Possibly something in the alternator heating up and causing electrical noise as it warms up? You wouldnt think it would make it difficult to restart though. Mine either fires right back up or doesnt fire at all.

Edited December 27, 2018 by OBS_Chummins

[livewire]

I'm not getting any codes whatsoever. Thats why I am looking into a ground problem. My 2001 has a large bunch of grounds under the driver battery that become a corroded from battery acid but it didn't fix my problem.

[dripley]

9This might be long shot but have you checked your alternator for stray AC voltage. @Mopar1973Man has an article and as usual I cannot find it. You need a volt meter that will read AC millivolts. With the engine idleing place the positive on the alternator output stud on the back of the alt and the negative on the - battery terminal. You should be below .05 volts AC not DC. Stray AC voltage can make thes trucks do funny things. It really messes with the electronics and can cause pre mature failure of the components. Even if it is not the problem it something you needto know anyway.

 WT's ground mod is a good way cut down on the noise. That is what @OBS_Chummins is talking about.

 

[livewire]

Put in the new Engine coolant temperature sensor. No change in starting, seems to idle better once started but still shut down after getting hot and won't start back. 

Edited December 28, 2018 by livewire

[Dieselfuture]

Try running cold water over vp44 when it does and see if it helps.

[OBS_Chummins]

Still nothing?

[livewire]

After 363 days I got it going.

 

Well, after quite a bit of beating my forehead into the ground, I did a gasoline in my fuel test, had over 50% Gasoline in the tank. I had filled up, added enough Dieselkleen to treat 25+ gallons. I then ran north 250 miles and picked up a Car on a trailer and headed home the next morning, on May 11th I stopped at the Davey Crockett TA Travel Center in Johnson City TN, topped off the tank from the big rig pumps "17.8 gallons - $3.18 a gal" I have the receipt. I added the rest of the bottle of dieselkleen and made it 70 miles south and was parked on the side of the road. I guess when i first checked my fuel for gas, on the side of the road. I could not detect any gasoline over the smell of the DieselKleen, it was overpowering everything on the smell test.

 

I did do the re-grounding procedure and eliminated the ground passing over the alternator. It has total eliminated the TC lockup problem that has been so aggravating. Not really that hard and i put on all new solder on battery clamps and lugs, really cleaned everything up nice.

 

I did have this thing to 2 different mechanics, 1 checked the fuel, never figured anything out. The other kept it locked up in his yard for 4-5 months and i had to hire a roll back to winch in to where we could load it and get it out of there. He never worked on it.

Edited June 10, 2019 by livewire

[Mopar1973Man]

On 6/10/2019 at 11:41 AM, livewire said:

added enough Dieselkleen to treat 25+ gallons.

Should of been 2 cycle oil. DieselKleen doesn't have any lubricant.

 

 

[JAG1]

What a frustrating pile of effort and mess you went thru. All because someone put gasoline in the fuel system. Probably had plenty of garbage down in the tank after sitting so long before it was found in a barn. Did you remove the screens in the tank? Them things hold the garbage and reduce fuel supply.

 

BTW, my fluctuating high and low fuel pressures were from a new style regulator on the new Air Dog 150. MoparMan suggested I turn pressure adjustment up and down while running. Wife watched the gauge and went up to 25 back down to 9 at idle many times. This caused both my erractic pressures to settle down on both my 2nd gens. I was so crazy getting after and trying everything since everyone/ me thought it was air.

 

Are you using 2 cycle oil now?

[Mopar1973Man]

What I told @JAG1 is cycle the regulator full both directions to free up the valve inside. Once he screwed it out all the away and back up in pressure it became more stable. The adjustable regulators on the new AirDog's tend to hang up and do weird things.

[JAG1]

Weird too is the fact the test gauge shows different from the cab gauge. I think different brands will read different pressures as both my gauges are direct mechanical no isolators on either truck. The test gauge is a very reliable shop testing gauge that is oil filled and has a pressure release button and drain. one gauge is 4.5 lbs higher than it shows in the cab and is 'HI' brand and the other, Isspro shows one psi higher than actual. I have trusted Isspro brand for many years. Just tossing info here.