Jump to content
Mopar1973Man

CR Injector failures and upset owners

Recommended Posts

I know of now 3 common rail owners getting upset and either wanting to sell there truck or just park it and let it rot. All 3 owners of injector failures of one type or another. When they find out the price of injectors they are not willing to pay the price to replace them. Sad to say I'm finding more and more 3rd Gen being parked or sold out here because the cost of injectors just isn't worth it. Like I talked to one gent locally yesterday I warned him a year ago about the grid heater light being on is a warning for excessive fuel return from failing injectors. His truck barely made it back to town and parked it for now. Day before I talked to another gent with common rail with over 300k miles on the injectors and wonders why it running funny. Top it off his transmission is also fried need rebuilt. Got another one south of me I've been trying to get him to replace his injectors before damage occurs but he continues to drive the truck even though it's getting harder to start and the smoke quantity is increasing. 

 

I know a majority of these owners are looking back now towards the older generation like 1st and 2nd generation trucks. They still want a good diesel but don't want the high cost of injectors. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like the majority are just negligent owners. I don’t know many 1st & 2nd gens that run like a top with 300k on the injectors. Only positive is not paying an arm and a leg for new ones for the older trucks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I think it's a sad thing when a world famous engine becomes so molested by EPA causing it to cost more than its worth. An eco friendly truck is one you can keep on the road.

 

 

 Amount of money flow thru the economy is directly correlated to the amount of waste and air/ water pollution. So every cost incurred by EPA drives up the very thing they try controlling.

 

This discussion also reveals why Kelly Blue Book had to raise prices on 2nd Gens two times.

      

Edited by JAG1
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hate to post this being not in 2nd gen forum but...

 

When wife and I were full timing in our RV couldn't tell you the amount of times at a campground someone would stop by and tell us how sorry they were they traded in their 1st or 2nd gen and now not happy.  Not so much with people with low miles but people over 150,000 or so.  Then usually they go on talking about how good it rides or how much more comfortable etc.  Some are mega dollar new trucks.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What bad is most of these people I'm talking about I have told them numerous times that injectors are 100k to 150k mile item that needs to be replaced. Then they typically get this blank look like I didn't know that. Then when you show them prices on CR injectors vs 24V injectors then they get pissed off and ask "Why are my injectors so much more?" Then you go on to explain about CR injectors and how they work and then the light pops on. But now its just too late. I'm sure two of these trucks are now parked and either to rot or to be sold cheap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By chance any link to write up on differences.  I just know $$$ difference not tech differences.  Would be nice to know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yup I've rebuilt a few CR 5.9 and 6.7 engines because of injectors failing mechanically. Ive also rebuilt a 6.7 Powerstroke and a LML Duramax from mechanically failing injectors. Broken rings caused by over fueling is what I have found most. Also fuel pools in the EGR cooler of EGR engines causing run aways if not caught in time.

 

Unfortunately CR injectors are maintenance items just like spark plugs in a gas engine and I recommend injector rebuild or replacement every 100k miles for the smaller CR diesel engines regardless of performance. My advice is if you notice fuel knock, ATD plugging rapidly (frequent regens needed), or heavier than normal smoke is to park the truck immediately till injectors are replaced. 

 

Maybe even check with injection shops that rebuild injectors. Central Motive Power in Albuquerque is who I use and haven't had a failure in any of the injectors they've rebuilt.

 

MVIMG_20180503_152203.jpg.acb3d6bb83764bd71890c795f7a365ae.jpg

This is a typical CR injector failure for any CR diesel engine if not repaired when the warning signs present themselves. I'd have to say the most common warning signs are smoke and fuel knock.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This 08 3500 6.7 I've been working on, got a new set of injectors last spring at 108k mile mark.  I will warn those that have CRs and are looking to buy injectors..  STICK WITH BOSCH OEM/REMAN buy REPUTABLE builders (I solely use Antrim Diesel in PA for all injector and pump repairs/replacements.)

$25-2800 for a set of injectors is outrageous, even from my perspective.  

Built a 5.9 CR for a guy's 05 2500, $6000 build and installation.  He bought Advance Auto replacement injectors after being suggested not to..  685 miles on the engine, and BOOF...  Injector failure wiped #2 piston and cylinder and valves..  AAP warrantied the faulty injector only.  $3500 more to the shop so we could fix his engine..  So in 3 weeks, a poor decision cost him a little better than $12K.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kind of like the 2005 Dodge 3500 I was supposed to finish out but end up with Moparmom's medical issues. That truck the owner had a bad injector(s) heard it knocking and continued to drive it home. Next morning it wouldn't start he had clearly wiped out at least 1 or 2 cylinders. Just barely crossed 112k on the clock original mileage POOF! Ate the engine for at least 5k worth of damage. Needed to cylinders sleeved then at that point might as well rebuild the entire engine. Then plus the injectors on top of the 5k. Ughh... Sad I had to have him tow it out of here being I'm taking care of MoparMom dialysis treatments. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Kind of like the 2005 Dodge 3500 I was supposed to finish out but end up with Moparmom's medical issues. That truck the owner had a bad injector(s) heard it knocking and continued to drive it home. Next morning it wouldn't start he had clearly wiped out at least 1 or 2 cylinders. Just barely crossed 112k on the clock original mileage POOF! Ate the engine for at least 5k worth of damage. Needed to cylinders sleeved then at that point might as well rebuild the entire engine. Then plus the injectors on top of the 5k. Ughh... Sad I had to have him tow it out of here being I'm taking care of MoparMom dialysis treatments. 

I say he'll need a complete rebuild with atleast a .030" oversized bore and pistons. If his crank looks like the others I've built the mains will have to be cut .010" with new rod and main bearings, then rebuild the cylinder head. If he has a shop do the work for him he's looking at $8,000-$10,000 out the door with a 6 pack of injectors and that's assuming cam, tappets, oil pump, push rods, and connecting rods are in good shape and re-usable.

 

An easy way to test if rings are broken is to remove both valve rockers from the cylinder you're testing and then use a rubber tipped blow gun that will seal against the injector seat in the head so compressed shop air can be used to pressurize the cylinder. If the cylinder doesn't hold pressure there is either a bad valve which can be heard with air escaping through the manifolds or broken rings which will be heard by air escaping into the crank case.

 

It's funny how injectors like the one below will rarely cause engine damage when they go. I kinda wish cam actuated electronic injectors would make a come back.

IMG_20180831_101929.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

odd, my 04 has 260K OEM injectors, my 08 has 195K oem injectors. quality fuel, good filters. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Consider yourself lucky. Filter changes help but fuel quality went to crap in 07 with the introduction of ULSD. I'm not sure if adding additives to increase lubricity would prolong the life of a CR injector. Most CR junk I work on still has DPF and SCR and most lubricity additives would plug the DPF.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Killer223 said:

odd, my 04 has 260K OEM injectors, my 08 has 195K oem injectors. quality fuel, good filters. 

 

Just like one guy in Riggins, ID with 318k on the OEM injectors. Just lucky.

 

Then I've seen them right at 112k miles and the injector wipes out an engine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Since were on the topic dealerships are stocking/selling "6-packs" on injectors. They range from 2100 to 2400 plus tax and obviously a core charge. OEM reman etc etc. They wind up coming from Fred Jones which used to be Tracy years ago and beyond that I'm not sure if they build them or if someone does it for them and they just stock them or what.

 

For now they're only available for 2003 to 2012 trucks.

Edited by 2000Ram2500
years

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well a common rail Ford owner learned today he needs buy a Dodge. He brought in his 6.4 International powered F250 with a CEL. We ran diagnostics and found low rail pressure and cylinder imbalance faults. We started disassembly and found lots of metal shavings within the fuel system. Quoted 8 injectors and a HPFP. After removing turbos we found both turbos have excessive shaft play and oil in compressor housings and in the CAC so 2 new turbos are needed.

 

Total for new fuel system and 2 new turbos is.... $10,218.xx.  If you ask me it's more than the fully loaded 4x4 crew cab short box 2008 F250 6 speed manual with 102,000 miles is worth.

 

Today's lesson kids is DON'T BUY A FORD THAT HAS A POWERSTROKE ENGINE!!! 7.3 excluded.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, 2000Ram2500 said:

Since were on the topic dealerships are stocking/selling "6-packs" on injectors. They range from 2100 to 2400 plus tax and obviously a core charge. OEM reman etc etc.

2

 

That's the problem those injectors are poorly remanufactured and typically have a shorter lifespan. It's only best to buy NEW injectors if possible. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 9/15/2018 at 9:59 AM, 04Mach1 said:

Consider yourself lucky. Filter changes help but fuel quality went to crap in 07 with the introduction of ULSD. I'm not sure if adding additives to increase lubricity would prolong the life of a CR injector. Most CR junk I work on still has DPF and SCR and most lubricity additives would plug the DPF.

What a sad state of affairs. A shame to do that to what was once a great bit of engineering.

Edited by JAG1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

That's the problem those injectors are poorly remanufactured and typically have a shorter lifespan. It's only best to buy NEW injectors if possible. 

 

I guess we'll see. I have seen once only now that one out of the set will be bad within a month of install but they havent had these out for very long to see if theres a bunch of issues with them or not. I would hope they arent cheaping out on them they're putting Cummins and Mopar on the labels as if they're good high quality. Like i said though Fred Jones is where they come from so its gonna come down to either where they get them or where they're getting there parts to reman these. It wouldnt surprise me to find out its cheap stuff going on there. I've seen a few times now factory mopar boxes with a giant "MADE IN CHINA" label on them like there not even hiding it with a small label on the part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

It's very cool that you guys seeing these things first hand are able to share with us on this forum. Thankyou.

 

04Mach1, did you determine the source of the metal fragments or shavings in the fuel system?

 

Also do you know who built the turbos?

Edited by JAG1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@JAG1 The most likely source of the metal was from the high pressure fuel pump. Most likely cause of the HPFP failing was water in the fuel. We started troubleshooting by testing the frame rail transfer pump which turned out to be putting out 0 psi. We removed the frame rail transfer pump to find the housing full of water and trash. We also noted that it had Napa 33963 fuel filters which are sourced from Wix installed which nowhere resemble the OEM Motorcraft fuel filters. Due to the difference in filter sealing features of the Napa branded filters water and trash got past the frame filter and to the engine mounted filter. Again the Napa / Wix filter did not have OEM type sealing function and water and trash got past the engine mounted fuel filter. The fuel filters had only been installed 3,000 miles before. Now for the fuel, he filled the truck up with fuel at a well known but old Conoco gas station that is only a mile away from our shop the night before failure. We dropped the fuel tank and pumped the fuel out the tank into a white plastic drum. After the fuel settled there was atleast 4 or 5 gallons of water and dirt at the bottom of the drum. He is talking to Napa that sold him the filters and the local Conoco where he bought the bad fuel to see if they will help with the cost of repair. I know this definitely put a sour taste in my mouth towards Napa branded Wix  cartridge type filters. I don't think I'll ever be able to install another Napa filter in a customers vehicle again let alone my own vehicle.Screenshot_20181006-173330.png.19af9f294bd1cd375ff82da5d3cd3a4d.png

Screenshot_20181006-173709.png

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well that is pretty much crap all the way around there. I wish him luck on getting some help paying for the repairs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

That is a sad state of affairs and hope people own up to their causing it. I began to be suspect of Wix a couple years ago for no reason other than I saw  they were made in one of the third world countries. Can't remember, but the reason I looked was because the quality seemed to be more light weight or cheap for some reason when picked out of the box. Now even more thankful your sharing this experience.

 

While becoming friends with the pump guy at my local Chevron, he told me that the owner never fills the underground diesel tank full and tries to slowly get rid of whats on the bottom of the tank. Went on to say that I should not be filling up there anymore. I don't know how true that was, but my clear filter bowl used to have some sediment and little bits of water I had to drain off about every two weeks.

 

Edited by JAG1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Update on the CR 6.4 Powerjoke. Finally got the customer convinced installing old turbos that were leaking oil was a very bad idea and engine run away would be imminent. I got the new turbos installed and it's running again. Customer stated truck hasn't ran as good as it is now even when it was new. He's not even upset about the cost of over $10k for the repair. 

 

My advice to him was to own and drive the truck for a while longer to recoup some of the repair cost and then sell it. I told him I wouldn't push ownership past another 50k miles.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×