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I would try to bump your timing up to 18 or so degrees. At 330BAR your about 3 degrees retarded, so your timing is really about 13 Degrees not 16. It maybe worth pushing it forward a few degrees to change your timing. As even my Smarty doesn't go farther then 18.25*

Questions.

 

1. Is this under boosted applications only? Does the bucking get worse as the boost goes up, or is it rpm dependent?

 

2. do you hear any mechanical timing knock?

3. Does the thumping go away if you lay off the throttle enough to kill the boost?(Like maybe a wrist pin is going south)

4. Have you considered putting in a lock up switch and testing to see if it happens in 2nd as well?

5. What are your line pressures in the transmission as well? Trying the rule out TC shudder, as my truck was bucking from the torque reversals hitting the TC as low line pressures.



I'm not entirely set on the idea that this is strictly injector related since it was happening before as well, however, I did go through this before with my older injectors as Mike can tell you, I had a load based pinging that was due to an injector that was acting up. I was able to diagnose it by fooling the truck into 3 cylinder high idle and then swapping the injectors till the thumping went away. When DAP looked at it the pintel failed on the injector.

Edited by pepsi71ocean

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46 minutes ago, pepsi71ocean said:

I would try to bump your timing up to 18 or so degrees. At 330BAR your about 3 degrees retarded, so your timing is really about 13 Degrees not 16.

no way no how

 

there is no noticable difference in timing based on pop of 330 vs pop of 310.   that 1* per 10 bar is myth.

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6 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

no way no how

 

there is no noticable difference in timing based on pop of 330 vs pop of 310.   that 1* per 10 bar is myth.

 

I'm not so sure Do you have any information to back this up?

I'm unsure since that the timing pressure curve has to go up exponentially as pressure rises. He's swinging some big injectors 250hp injectors IIRC. I'm thinking that stock maybe his injectors were 300 bar, or maybe 310. Although I believe Jkidd mentioned in a previous thread that pop pressures on 250's is about 315 BAR stock?

 

I have been wondering this, but I've had several injector shops agree with the timing bump theory. I've been told that you can get an injector to put out 100hp's worth of fuel, but you can have different internals that will make it different. But the one things that they have stated is that the time to build the pop pressure from 300 bar to 330 bar is much higher then from 280 to 300. The fluid compression is what I've been told is the major issue.

 

 

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A couple of thing

 

1. I hear no audible difference at idle between the 300 bar and the 350 bar.  I ran these back to back.  350 bar should be ~5* of timing difference.  There is a VERY audible difference in that much of a timing swing. having played with timing that much it was very apparent that there was not a big difference in overall timing at idle.

 

2. when I compare idle state between 300 and 350 bar I see only a %3 diffence in duration command to keep the same idle.  Again if there was that much delay in the fueling I would expect that duration command to be alot different to keep the same overall fuel injection the same.  

 

3. 5* of timing difference on a cold truck would result in heavy white smoke.  I know this because I did it during the trial and error of making the V2 tuning.  going from idle of 12* to idle of 7* made the truck idle terribly.  My idle with 350 bar was no different than stock bar.

 

 

 

Keep in mind that you are only thinking about the starting point of the injection event.  The actualy combustion event is what matters.  With higher pop you are moving the front and end of the injection event, I am not sure the actual combustion event changes a significant amount. the finer spray would lead to the combustion event happening sooner as well, offsetting the delay of the injector opening.

Biggest thing, is there way no real difference in how the truck ran with 350 bar vs 300 bar.  I noticed because I was doing logging and testing, but the average joe would have no idea.

 

Edited by Me78569
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On 12/3/2018 at 11:03 AM, Me78569 said:

A couple of thing

 

1. I hear no audible difference at idle between the 300 bar and the 350 bar.  I ran these back to back.  350 bar should be ~5* of timing difference.  There is a VERY audible difference in that much of a timing swing. having played with timing that much it was very apparent that there was not a big difference in overall timing at idle.

 

2. when I compare idle state between 300 and 350 bar I see only a %3 diffence in duration command to keep the same idle.  Again if there was that much delay in the fueling I would expect that duration command to be alot different to keep the same overall fuel injection the same.  

 

3. 5* of timing difference on a cold truck would result in heavy white smoke.  I know this because I did it during the trial and error of making the V2 tuning.  going from idle of 12* to idle of 7* made the truck idle terribly.  My idle with 350 bar was no different than stock bar.

 

 

 

Keep in mind that you are only thinking about the starting point of the injection event.  The actualy combustion event is what matters.  With higher pop you are moving the front and end of the injection event, I am not sure the actual combustion event changes a significant amount. the finer spray would lead to the combustion event happening sooner as well, offsetting the delay of the injector opening.

Biggest thing, is there way no real difference in how the truck ran with 350 bar vs 300 bar.  I noticed because I was doing logging and testing, but the average joe would have no idea.

 

 

This is really interesting to note. As for me the only difference I've noticed is that my S03 burns almost clean. I see very little to no smoke, Unlike before where she would roll coal constantly. This truck you need to make it roll coal, and she'll do it. The pedal is very forgiving about coal and spool up. The shifting is more firm as well.

This is is why I'm still puzzled about the effects of raised pop pressure on the truck.  I'd like to pick your brain about writing an article about raising pop pressure for the Smarty trucks. I feel like people will find that useful, especially for guys like me who still run the S03 with larger injectors.

 

 

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better atomization.  I dont think it has anything to do with timing.     

 

I noted a difference of smoke output related to fuel duration of ~6-10% 

 

IE: a truck with 330 bar pop could run %6-%10 more duration across the board without smoke compared to someone running 300 bar.  

 

 

 

I think raising pop pressure is not something you should be recommending to people.  I noticed harder starts when it was cold at 330 bar.  To the point of being dangerous if you needed to start the truck and it was cold, IE below 20*f  

 

It is also widely unknown what, if any, the long term issues of increased pop is.  i noticed a better running truck at 330 bar with the 7 x .012's but I dont recommend people do that because I have no idea what the issue might be on the system as a whole ~12 months down the road.  

 

 

 

I liked what it did for my smoke output, but I think a WAY better solution for guys having smoke control issues is to upgrade their tuning.    The S03 is not tuning for the current era.  I kinda regret ever posting anything about pop pressure, it was not my intention to suggest to people to try it, it was only because I was bored and wanted to mess with it.

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3 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

better atomization.  I dont think it has anything to do with timing.     

 

I noted a difference of smoke output related to fuel duration of ~6-10% 

 

IE: a truck with 330 bar pop could run %6-%10 more duration across the board without smoke compared to someone running 300 bar.  

 

 

 

I think raising pop pressure is not something you should be recommending to people.  I noticed harder starts when it was cold at 330 bar.  To the point of being dangerous if you needed to start the truck and it was cold, IE below 20*f  

 

It is also widely unknown what, if any, the long term issues of increased pop is.  i noticed a better running truck at 330 bar with the 7 x .012's but I dont recommend people do that because I have no idea what the issue might be on the system as a whole ~12 months down the road.  

 

 

 

I liked what it did for my smoke output, but I think a WAY better solution for guys having smoke control issues is to upgrade their tuning.    The S03 is not tuning for the current era.  I kinda regret ever posting anything about pop pressure, it was not my intention to suggest to people to try it, it was only because I was bored and wanted to mess with it.

 

Don't regret it. There's nothing much about it on the other forums.

 

I haven't seen any issues myself, but Maybe that is a mixture of fueling and commanding based on a programmer?  I haven't had any issues yet and mine fired right up without grids at 17F out.  But That maybe also because of the smarty?

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cranking as close to open loop as you can get, I doubt your truck cranks at a different duration / timing than mine did.  I doubt smarty messed with cranking fueling and timing.

 

likely has to do with with the size of the injector.  it got MUCH harder to start near that 20*f mark, also consider I am much higher in altitude.    Point being that I have had reports of this same issue from others as well, I can't suggest it to anyone knowing that it does cause starting issues in the cold.  the other member in canada that popped his own injectors ran into the same issue.  

 

It was like a light switch, just a few * difference and there was no issue, then bam issue starting.  

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

cranking as close to open loop as you can get, I doubt your truck cranks at a different duration / timing than mine did.  I doubt smarty messed with cranking fueling and timing.

 

likely has to do with with the size of the injector.  it got MUCH harder to start near that 20*f mark, also consider I am much higher in altitude.    Point being that I have had reports of this same issue from others as well, I can't suggest it to anyone knowing that it does cause starting issues in the cold.  the other member in canada that popped his own injectors ran into the same issue.  

 

It was like a light switch, just a few * difference and there was no issue, then bam issue starting.  

 

 

 

See that's where I was wondering if this is related to Injector size. I do believe that popping 75's to 330 bar would post an issue, unlike my 100's or 150s per say. My truck fired right up at 17F without grids. Which has me tossed.

You are running 100's or 150's?

Edited by pepsi71ocean

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Interesting. 

I’m in Canada. 

All my 12v injectors - VE as well as P have always been POP’d 10% higher, both stock and larger/worked units. 

No issues starting in 0F without grids. 

The slightly higher POP does help with atomization. 

Timing, injection event and duration all play a role. 

 

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I was running 250's  or whatever you call 7 x .012's   

 

 

the 330 bar helped with smoke control, but I still had to pull duration down by ~%30 offidle to run smoke free. 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, ofelas said:

Interesting. 

I’m in Canada. 

All my 12v injectors - VE as well as P have always been POP’d 10% higher, both stock and larger/worked units. 

No issues starting in 0F without grids. 

The slightly higher POP does help with atomization. 

Timing, injection event and duration all play a role. 

 

whats stock bar on ve pumps?  ~250 bar for vs and ~270 bar for ppump?     even at %10 above that you are well below where I was seeing issues.

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Well I have tried everything and can't get rid of fthe bucking. I've replaced injectors with the stock ones and still does it, disconnected the Quadzilla and still does it, did the apps relearn and no help. So I'm down to the Vp44 now. So I'm going to replace it and see what happens. I have read alot of forums and the one thing that keeps being said over and over. No codes and bucking. So I will keep you posted. As far as having the injectors poped to 330, I'm very pleased with the idle, smoke is non existent unless I want.it, and so far my milage has increased by 3 mpg. All this with the pump acting up. 

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Just a question. 

 

You guys having the issues, what are your idles like?

 

The reason I am asking this my old truck with ddp 150's and current truck with DAP injectors, the idle was/is erratic. I always attributed that to a little more fuel. You can hear it but doesn't register on anything. 

 

Now, my old truck with DFI 100's and my old fun truck with DFI 6x13's were utter sewing machines. Flawless idle. 

Aaaaand the fun truck was beyond heavily fueled for a 24v. 

 

My current truck with the DAP's will idle ok for a while but then gets scribble scrabble for a bit then back ok. Similar to old ddp 150's.

 

Another question. 

 

How did this issue start out? Was it it gradual then got worse? Or full blown somethings wrong?

 

The reason I am asking this. I have started noticing a sensation when not driving on cruise control that is similar to driving into a head wind that lets up for a bit then you get hit again. The fuel pressure is usually fine but that damn FASS pump is another story.

 

It does not do this on cruise control so I am thinking something apps related...hopefully. 

 

 

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On 12/8/2018 at 11:59 PM, mossyoak71 said:

Well I have tried everything and can't get rid of fthe bucking. I've replaced injectors with the stock ones and still does it, disconnected the Quadzilla and still does it, did the apps relearn and no help. So I'm down to the Vp44 now. So I'm going to replace it and see what happens. I have read alot of forums and the one thing that keeps being said over and over. No codes and bucking. So I will keep you posted. As far as having the injectors poped to 330, I'm very pleased with the idle, smoke is non existent unless I want.it, and so far my milage has increased by 3 mpg. All this with the pump acting up. 

 

your 7x.012 are set to 330 bar correct? Have you noticed an increase in spool up?

 

28 minutes ago, Ben said:

Just a question. 

 

You guys having the issues, what are your idles like?

 

The reason I am asking this my old truck with ddp 150's and current truck with DAP injectors, the idle was/is erratic. I always attributed that to a little more fuel. You can hear it but doesn't register on anything. 

 

Now, my old truck with DFI 100's and my old fun truck with DFI 6x13's were utter sewing machines. Flawless idle. 

Aaaaand the fun truck was beyond heavily fueled for a 24v. 

 

My current truck with the DAP's will idle ok for a while but then gets scribble scrabble for a bit then back ok. Similar to old ddp 150's.

 

Sounds dumb but I noticed a similar issue with my idle when my injectors were popping off low, but it was also effected by my smarty settings.

 

Increasing the duration to much would replicate the idle you speak of. I suspect it is because the VP-44 is pumping ever so slightly more fuel until the idle pop is pushed forward until the engine burps out the excess fuel from the injector lines. I've noticed this issue is less prevalent when the Duration REVO is lower, if i set it too low to where i run out of fuel on heavy acceleration then the issue goes away completely.

 

I'm unsure if this is an issue in general since the VP trucks have the ability to control fueling. Then again this is just a theory.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, pepsi71ocean said:

 

your 7x.012 are set to 330 bar correct? Have you noticed an increase in spool up?

 

 

Sounds dumb but I noticed a similar issue with my idle when my injectors were popping off low, but it was also effected by my smarty settings.

 

Increasing the duration to much would replicate the idle you speak of. I suspect it is because the VP-44 is pumping ever so slightly more fuel until the idle pop is pushed forward until the engine burps out the excess fuel from the injector lines. I've noticed this issue is less prevalent when the Duration REVO is lower, if i set it too low to where i run out of fuel on heavy acceleration then the issue goes away completely.

 

I'm unsure if this is an issue in general since the VP trucks have the ability to control fueling. Then again this is just a theory.

 

 

 

 

All I have are injectors. No electronics. 

 

The other trucks were straight smarty 9 and 8.

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11 minutes ago, Ben said:

 

 

All I have are injectors. No electronics. 

 

The other trucks were straight smarty 9 and 8.

 

Is it all injectors, I'm kinda confused? I don't know if my smarty makes it worse and its already there. When I get my truck back in running condition I'll have to pull the smarty and see if there is a lope. I do know my truck knocks the no1 cylinder is slightly off, but It's been that way since I bought the truck at 44,000 miles.

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35 minutes ago, pepsi71ocean said:

 

Is it all injectors, I'm kinda confused? I don't know if my smarty makes it worse and its already there. When I get my truck back in running condition I'll have to pull the smarty and see if there is a lope. I do know my truck knocks the no1 cylinder is slightly off, but It's been that way since I bought the truck at 44,000 miles.

@pepsi71ocean

 

Current truck stock with DAP injectors only. No electronics.

 

Old truck was a myriad of combos but final one was DFI 100's,Super B, Smarty 9, TST Comp

 

Little fun truck was Dragonfire Pump, DFI 6x13's, Edge Juice Hot, Smarty 8, S366 over HT4B. 

 

All manual transmissions. 

 

The DFI trucks with the Smarty idled flawlessly. 

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Posted (edited)
On 1/5/2019 at 2:51 PM, pepsi71ocean said:

 

your 7x.012 are set to 330 bar correct? Have you noticed an increase in spool up?

They do spool the twins quicker, I just ordered a VP44, so hopefully it will be here Friday so I can get it in this weekend. It is starting to feel like I'm back in my rodeo days. 

My truck idles fine, and revs fine, it's just the constant speed it wants to buck. Give it the go pedal and it stops.

Edited by mossyoak71

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8 hours ago, mossyoak71 said:

My truck idles fine, and revs fine, it's just the constant speed it wants to buck. Give it the go pedal and it stops.

I'm curious about end result, I had pretty much the same issue with mine and between fixing the alternator and changing injectors so far it's been good to me.

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2 minutes ago, Dieselfuture said:

I'm curious about end result, I had pretty much the same issue with mine and between fixing the alternator and changing injectors so far it's been good to me.

I've done all the above, only thing left is the VP. I have blueish smoke and black smoke most of the time. Even with the Quad I can not stop it from smoking. So we will see come this weekend, fingers crossed

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9 hours ago, mossyoak71 said:

I've done all the above, only thing left is the VP. I have blueish smoke and black smoke most of the time. Even with the Quad I can not stop it from smoking. So we will see come this weekend, fingers crossed

 

Blueish smoke isn't a good sign by any means, I'm unsure where your getting your oil burn from. What is your compression at, and have you done a leak down test yet?

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