47RE advice

[Russ Roth]

14 hours ago, Dynamic said:

 They have no idea the function of that stuff, so when it comes time to diagnose something that's not right, blank stares ensue...

 

 

 

 

 

The very reason I drove across the state to have you do my tranny.  I could tell you had figured out how things worked same as Tony did.  Not sure if I mentioned the trip to Ammco and the blank stares as Tony waxed poetic about trannies.   LOL  Have to stop by sometime just to tell you that one.

[Ram Man 02]

20 hours ago, Dynamic said:

It sounds like these guys are way over their skis on this deal. They don't seem to know what they built, or how it works. This is why I rail against "box builders" so openly. When guys just start simply ordering and assembling random parts just because they are supposedly "better than stock", you end up with a conglomeration of stuff that the "builder" often doesn't understand the function of. All they know is that the instructions said to put the blue spring in the 3rd valve from the end, and to drill hole "A" to .100", and hole B to .125", etc. They have no idea the function of that stuff, so when it comes time to diagnose something that's not right, blank stares ensue...

 

Rant over. My apologies... Stepping off of soap box...

 

What is your line pressure, and what does the curve look like from idle to WOT? What does line pressure do when the TC locks up and/or when OD engages?

 

I don't mention disconnecting the alternator as a "nothing to lose" type of operation. I build 200+ 4 speed Dodges every year, and the 2nd Gen trucks are notorious for this type of thing. I'll bet I see this at least 20-25 times a year. If you've got a converter cycling issue, the likely cause is a bad alternator, and disconnecting it is the quickest, down and dirty method for tracking it down.

 

Same with setting the TV cable. Setting it by adjusting the WOT 1-2 shift is the simplest way to get your TV cable right, especially with Lord knows what done to the valve body. Every "shift kit" that I know of modifies the TV regulator in some way, rendering any manual kind of irrelevant.

 

please rant away! ive been trying my best to leave my opinion out of this thread. trust me, im not happy about the situation and i have yet to mention the name of the shop, any peoples names or anyone else ive spoke with about them, As long as theyre going to try again to fix this i will keep my mouth shut.

 

i will say they are very much a box store type and only build transmissions no R&R.

 

I will check the alternator as you described.

 

i will also go beat on it a little and see where the shift points are and report back.

19 hours ago, pepsi71ocean said:

 

WOT shift points are suppose to be about 2,800-3,000 rpm for a vp truck, and 2,500 for a Ppump. Do me a favor and follow this article, but don't change anything don't drop the pan. But as Dynamic stated we need information.

 

Your delayed shifting can be caused by a few things, but without some information were lost here. However, your shifts for 1-2 and 2-3 should be around 1800-2200 give or take. Now if you have a programmer like a smarty expect that to play with your settings, and or having a high line pressure without a fooler.

 

 

Don't make any adjustments but we need to see the line pressures at the accumulator through the test port. grab a 0-300 psi gauge from home depot for the test. It should take you 20 mins to hook up. Don't worry about dropping the pan or anything unscrew the test port and hook up the gauges. We need to see the line pressure.

 

In my youtube searching ive seen the plug you are refering to, so i was aware of it. I will look into getting a long hydraulic hose made or ill just buy multiple grease gun hoses with couplings to get the gauge into the cab.

19 hours ago, Dynamic said:

Oh boy... Yeah, let's not start cranking on the VB adjustments! That's a bit of a slippery slope, but I digress...

 

I don't really think you have a line pressure issue per se, but it would be nice to know what kind of curve you have, what kind of "shift kit" was used, and to make sure that your boost valve is functioning properly when lockup is commanded.

i will get many readings in different gears when i get a gauge figured out and report back.

 

Thank you for the help!

Edited December 9, 2018 by Ram Man 02

[CTcummins24V]

7 hours ago, Russ Roth said:

 

The very reason I drove across the state to have you do my tranny.  I could tell you had figured out how things worked same as Tony did.  Not sure if I mentioned the trip to Ammco and the blank stares as Tony waxed poetic about trannies.   LOL  Have to stop by sometime just to tell you that one.

 

The same reason I went with a Goerend valve body and then had someone who knows these trucks/trannies go through it, the 2nd time around. 

[pepsi71ocean]

3 hours ago, Ram Man 02 said:

In my youtube searching ive seen the plug you are refering to, so i was aware of it. I will look into getting a long hydraulic hose made or ill just buy multiple grease gun hoses with couplings to get the gauge into the cab.

 

You can buy the cheap nylon line, I just used greese gun hose under there just so it doesn't melt against the exhaust of chaff.

[Ram Man 02]

8 hours ago, CTcummins24V said:

 

The same reason I went with a Goerend valve body and then had someone who knows these trucks/trannies go through it, the 2nd time around. 

thats how i found this place through goerend and thats what i wanted installed but recent events and lack of my questions answered leads me to believe thats not what i received

[Russ Roth]

18 hours ago, CTcummins24V said:

 

The same reason I went with a Goerend valve body and then had someone who knows these trucks/trannies go through it, the 2nd time around. 

 

More than once I was privvy to phone conversations Dave and Tony had to bat around ideas to solve an issue one or the other had.  At one time Dave worked for Tony and apparently gives Tony a lot of credit for what he knows and has accomplished.

[Ram Man 02]

I picked up several grease gun hoses and couplings. my local home improvement store only had 0-200psi liquid gauges so thats what i grabbed.

 

I had Dan come over and watch the gauge for me so i had a second set of eyes, plus hes also curious what they did.

 

TESTING RESULTS:

 

-disconnecting the alternator made no difference.

-the middle port only read pressure in the forward gears. nothing in reverse which going back and reading i guess it was supposed to do that but it catch me off guard at the time.

-put it in drive at idle gives me 100psi.

-put the shifter in manual 1st gear and bring rpm up to 1800 gives me 122psi

-put the shifter in 2nd gear and bring rpm up to 2700 gives 144psi.

-3rd gear with converter unlocked then locking the pressure didnt change in either state. the pressure varied depending on where i had my foot/tv cable. same results in 4th.

-4th gear with converter locked at 47mph which is close to 1200rpm i rolled into the throttle pretty hard but not enough to make it downshift, until about 65mph which is close to 1800rpm, the pressure went from 110psi to 140psi.

-4th gear just cruising road speed around 1500rpm on flat roads was always between 115-120psi. pressure varied with throttle position. as this point i was just having fun watching the gauge move around.

 

Now to the serious tests:

 

i made 2 passes rolling from about 5mph pinned up to 65mph. shifted into 2nd and 3rd right around 2900 rpm everytime give or take 50. I was watching the tach and speedo while dan watched the gauge. he saw a max psi of just over the 200 mark so were calling it about 205psi. theres no stop on this gauge so the needle is able to go past 200. he said it bounced down to 200 maybe 198 psi a couple times, it must have been during shifts.

after turning around the 2nd time when i shifted in D i noticed it didnt feel right. as i took off normally i knew i wasnt in 1st gear. as i got up to speed i felt the converter lock at its normal speed so i knew we were starting in 3rd gear. it went into 4th like normal as well. I knew we went into limp mode because something similar happened to me about 10 years ago when a sensor went out and it was stuck in 3rd gear only.

 

we stopped beating on it and drove over to his house to check codes. BTW i could get 2nd when shifting down but not first which i believe are also part of the limp mode. I never shut the truck off and i gave us P1763 governor pressure sensor too high. p0500 no vss detected. and there was the companion module code which i didnt write down just tells you theres a code in the other computer.

 

the gov press code makes sense because i had it floored. but that is the first time ive ever seen it pop up because i dont drive like that normally.

 

i was reading about someone else with the same vss code after they were doing some burn outs and since i was spinning the tires some that might explain where that came from.

 

we didnt erase the codes just incase we needed them for some reason. i then shut the truck off and when restarted works like normal again so i drove home nicely and parked it. SO, thats my morning....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CTcummins24V]

I’ll let dynamic chime in but sure looks like a valve body issue. 

[pepsi71ocean]

7 hours ago, CTcummins24V said:

I’ll let dynamic chime in but sure looks like a valve body issue. 

 

I second this, But your line pressures are all over the place, Idle should be 75 psi, and driving down the road 200psi is very high. How/Why your line pressure cycle from

 

Your getting the GPS code because it is high. I don't doubt its starting in 2nd or even 3rd at this rate. But I'll give Dynamic some time to reply as he knows way more then I do.

[Dynamic]

This is where it would be very helpful to know whose valve body we're dealing with here. The wide pressure curve (100-205+ psi) and the lack of boost valve function, makes me think that it could very well be a Goerend VB. But I guarantee you that Dave Goerend would not intentionally send a VB out the door that exceeds 200 psi up top for an application like yours. That's way too much line pressure, and you run the risk of killing the Belleville in the forward clutch and over-travelling the forward piston, not to mention the governor pressure code you're constantly getting. All of the other readings you took pretty much line up with what I would expect as pressure goes up and down with throttle setting.

 

It almost seems like a Goerend VB was installed, but someone either changed the PR spring (fairly unlikely), or wound up the spring that came in it trying to "help things out" (I've seen this more than a few times).

 

*stepping onto soap box*... When a guy has no idea what is going on with the balance signals that actually determine line pressure (the spring is only a small part of what's going on in there), he needs to leave things alone...especially with a Goerend VB, a BD high pressure VB, one of my high pressure VB's, or any equivalent VB, because I can assure you that it's not stock. ...*stepping off of soap box*

 

If I were in your shoes, I would take a look at the PR spring setup and see how much preload it has. If it looks to be wound up a bunch, I'd back it off until your idle line pressure (in gear, idle, no throttle applied) reads about 80 psi. This should put you at appx. 180-185 up top, which is just about right. I would also feel a lot better if it had a pressure relief valve of some sort on the governor circuit to protect the transducer from those high pressures. Make sure that you have a Rostra HP transducer in there as well.

[pepsi71ocean]

2 hours ago, Dynamic said:

This is where it would be very helpful to know whose valve body we're dealing with here. The wide pressure curve (100-205+ psi) and the lack of boost valve function, makes me think that it could very well be a Goerend VB. But I guarantee you that Dave Goerend would not intentionally send a VB out the door that exceeds 200 psi up top for an application like yours. That's way too much line pressure, and you run the risk of killing the Belleville in the forward clutch and over-travelling the forward piston, not to mention the governor pressure code you're constantly getting. All of the other readings you took pretty much line up with what I would expect as pressure goes up and down with throttle setting.

 

It almost seems like a Goerend VB was installed, but someone either changed the PR spring (fairly unlikely), or wound up the spring that came in it trying to "help things out" (I've seen this more than a few times).

 

*stepping onto soap box*... When a guy has no idea what is going on with the balance signals that actually determine line pressure (the spring is only a small part of what's going on in there), he needs to leave things alone...especially with a Goerend VB, a BD high pressure VB, one of my high pressure VB's, or any equivalent VB, because I can assure you that it's not stock. ...*stepping off of soap box*

 

If I were in your shoes, I would take a look at the PR spring setup and see how much preload it has. If it looks to be wound up a bunch, I'd back it off until your idle line pressure (in gear, idle, no throttle applied) reads about 80 psi. This should put you at appx. 180-185 up top, which is just about right. I would also feel a lot better if it had a pressure relief valve of some sort on the governor circuit to protect the transducer from those high pressures. Make sure that you have a Rostra HP transducer in there as well.

Not to side track John, but I need to give you a ring about shipping out my valve body to you and have you do a good one over on it while I have my Dodge apart. there's things my auto is doing in D that it doesn't do in manual 1.
 

[Ram Man 02]

12 hours ago, Dynamic said:

This is where it would be very helpful to know whose valve body we're dealing with here. The wide pressure curve (100-205+ psi) and the lack of boost valve function, makes me think that it could very well be a Goerend VB. But I guarantee you that Dave Goerend would not intentionally send a VB out the door that exceeds 200 psi up top for an application like yours. That's way too much line pressure, and you run the risk of killing the Belleville in the forward clutch and over-travelling the forward piston, not to mention the governor pressure code you're constantly getting. All of the other readings you took pretty much line up with what I would expect as pressure goes up and down with throttle setting.

 

It almost seems like a Goerend VB was installed, but someone either changed the PR spring (fairly unlikely), or wound up the spring that came in it trying to "help things out" (I've seen this more than a few times).

 

*stepping onto soap box*... When a guy has no idea what is going on with the balance signals that actually determine line pressure (the spring is only a small part of what's going on in there), he needs to leave things alone...especially with a Goerend VB, a BD high pressure VB, one of my high pressure VB's, or any equivalent VB, because I can assure you that it's not stock. ...*stepping off of soap box*

 

If I were in your shoes, I would take a look at the PR spring setup and see how much preload it has. If it looks to be wound up a bunch, I'd back it off until your idle line pressure (in gear, idle, no throttle applied) reads about 80 psi. This should put you at appx. 180-185 up top, which is just about right. I would also feel a lot better if it had a pressure relief valve of some sort on the governor circuit to protect the transducer from those high pressures. Make sure that you have a Rostra HP transducer in there as well.

I only saw the governor pressure code the 1 time. its never given me that code before in the 17years ive owned the truck.

I didn't understand most of that. I don't really understand transmissions at all! I'm barely able to understand what you and pepsi are talking about. I don't even know if I took all the correct readings you were looking for? I know a few things but it barely gets me by.

21 hours ago, pepsi71ocean said:

 

I second this, But your line pressures are all over the place, Idle should be 75 psi, and driving down the road 200psi is very high. How/Why your line pressure cycle from

 

Your getting the GPS code because it is high. I don't doubt its starting in 2nd or even 3rd at this rate. But I'll give Dynamic some time to reply as he knows way more then I do.

the 200psi reading was only when the truck was floored and banging through the gears. normal driving was around 115-120psi

It was starting in 3rd after it threw the governor pressure code. I code only get 2nd gear by manually shifting into 2nd and it wouldn't go into 1st ever. after I shut the truck off and restarted, it went back to normal. I assume this is some kind of limp mode.

[Dynamic]

The pressure tests you ran were just fine. Line pressure is dependent upon throttle position, and it looks like yours is tracking just fine.

 

The governor pressure code set because of the high line pressure at WOT. No surprise there. The 3rd gear starts with that much line pressure are also no surprise.

[Ram Man 02]

cool. atleast I did something right.

 

 

[Ram Man 02]

UPDATE: For anyone that is curious or finds this later when searching.

 

My truck is back together appears to be working normal. I have only a few miles on it so time will tell if it holds up.

 

They told me there was a sticking valve in the valve body and the converter lock up clutches were glazed and slightly harder then they should be so the were replaced. they were intentionally being vague just like previously.

 

I asked who's valve body they used and he didn't answer me.

 

I asked about the dynoing process and what they are checking for along with what kind of pressures they see. (I did not mention the testing I did a month ago before removal). he said their dyno only has so much power and if they apply full brake with the converter locked it will stop the dyno before my clutch was slipping so that's why I had issues after it was installed in the truck and why the shaking got worse with load. so that part made sense.

as for line pressures he said at idle it could be between 90 to 120psi, which I thought was a large range BS answer and at WOT it could be as high as 250psi. Again very vague answers but that was what I was seeing.

 

I also noticed when putting it back in the truck that someone wrote SONNAX with a permanent marker on the converter and wiped it clean with some kind of spray but I could just barely see it still. So is it possible they are using all sonnax parts for this thing???

 

Over all I'm not happy but I guess I not mad either since they stepped up with it 1 month out of warranty. Since this is hopefully over with now, The name of the shop is Dynotec in Jordan,MN. I honestly cant recommend anyone doing business with them. Now this whole situation might have been a fluke and I just have bad luck, I'm not sure. But if this gives me problems again I might just cut the converter lock up wire, or i will most likely end up just trading the truck in. *end rant*

 

I want to thank everyone for their help. I truly mean it! This forum has been extremely valuable!!!

Edited January 15, 2019 by Ram Man 02

[Mopar1973Man]

8 hours ago, Ram Man 02 said:

I want to thank everyone for their help. I truly mean it! This forum has been extremely valuable!!!

 

Thank you for the wonderful comments for the M73M site and gang...

 

8 hours ago, Ram Man 02 said:

Over all I'm not happy but I guess I not mad either since they stepped up with it 1 month out of warranty. Since this is hopefully over with now, The name of the shop is Dynotec in Jordan,MN. I honestly cant recommend anyone doing business with them. Now this whole situation might have been a fluke and I just have bad luck, I'm not sure. But if this gives me problems again I might just cut the converter lock up wire, or i will most likely end up just trading the truck in. *end rant*

 

I would contact @Dynamic and talk to Jon about this. I'm sure he can help sort this out for you. Jon is an awesome transmission guy and extremely knowledgeable. 

[Ram Man 02]

Well its officially NOT fixed. I drove it to work a couple days so far and it seemed normal at first but after less then 300 miles i can tell its coming back.

 

I guess im going to make a call to Jon and introduce myself