Dead truck P0216

[Guest 04Mach1]

 

I still feel lucky to have something as cheap and reliable as VP Cummins. Sure  the P-pump is reliable but IMO stock for stock doesn't have the pep and drivability of the VP. I'd buy a CR Cummins, preferably a 5.9 but even the 6.7 is ok. I will steer clear of anything using a CP4 like the 6.4 Powerstroke and the Duramax. It's WHEN, not if the CP4 fails it will take every other part in the fuel system with it including all 8 injectors and if equipped with a DPF it will kill the hydrocarbon dosing block and injector.  The 6.0 Powerstroke stroke is a decent engine after it gets head studs and illegal emissions modification, of course the HPOP and injectors can be costly especially for those trying to do extended oil drain intervals. 

[NIsaacs]

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 8:20 PM, Tractorman said:

 

 

You will have to set me straight here.  I have a 20 foot tilt-deck trailer rated at 14,000 lbs GVWR.  It's empty weight is about 3,000 lbs (maybe 3,500 lbs max).  Are you saying your trailer weights 7,000 lbs empty?

 

- John

 

I agree, I think Mike is confused with his RV. My 83"x24' 14k gvw gooseneck weighs 5k, with winch, battery and tool boxes full of cargo control items.

 

On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 11:41 AM, Bulldog said:

.

P7100 is my only logical option. I need extreme reliability. I could care less about anything else, even if it halved my horsepower, that's what I need. When I throw a gooseneck on the back of this truck and decide to go boar hunting in Texas, I need to know I will get there absolutely without issues. I can rebuilt this engine on the side of the road if I need to, but I don't want to, that's the point.

 

My '91 Dodge has 326k miles on the oem VE pump, the '01 has 326k miles on the oem VP pump. Overall, the trucks don't owe me a dime, so when and if I do need a new pump, I am okay with that. Neither one has ever made me walk.

 

Keep in mind, the injection pump is only one item that can fail, out of a 100, that can put you on the side of the road. 

[JAG1]

On 2/3/2019 at 8:19 PM, Bulldog said:

Crazy seeing people ok with a Vp-44 failing at sub 300k miles. We have highway engines that go for 1 million miles no problem, injection pump gets rebuilt at that point, and yet it is ok for VP-44 to only get 150k to 200k miles at most? My 95 12V keeps going at 445k with no problems. I can run black sludge through it and it runs all day pulling the backhoe at 35k pounds total! I hop in my 2001 at 300k miles for a trip to the feed store and I get my second P0216! Even with 20 PSI at the VP-44. Son of A! 

 

Call me crazy, but this design is the worst I've ever seen in my short 47 years of working on diesels..........

Are you using two stroke in the fuel to bring the score value within range of Bosch specs?

[Bulldog]

Ask any professional diesel mechanic that same question, and you'll get laughed at. Ask any consumer on the street that same question, you get a blank stare, or a laugh, or a shrug. You should not have to do anything but fuel the vehicle with quality fuel, and drive it. Change the oil and filters on schedule and get 500k to 1 million miles on these Cummins engines. This is the mileage a quality diesel engine with inline injection pump normally gets. My 12 valves get at least 500k to 700k, no work other than oil changes and filters before I rebuild them. On top of that, I've seen an average of 25MPG (empty) on one of my dually 1 tons!

 

Bosch knows the VP-44 design is flawed. Cummins knows this design is flawed. Bullydog, Sheid, DP, DAP. All of them also know it, but they sell lots of pumps to guys who keep throwing Benjamin Franklins at them 10 at a time, so they keep their mouths shut and keep rebuilding pumps. I'm sorry, but these are the facts, but don't take my word for it, ask a few 60 year old diesel mechanics. Or ask the many who have p-pumped their 24V engines. You'll find the majority say it's the best thing you could do with a 24V engine.

[Dieselfuture]

@Bulldog I don't think anyone is arguing with you on dependability and longevity of p7100 Cummins. What I believe is being discussed is vp44 lasts long enough for most here (with better fuel supply) that may put 15k a year. So if we see 250-300k out of one it's not bad at all. I agree diesel should go close to 1ml miles without changing major components and they did with p7100 but now with all new regulations, technology evolved. It's getting better but way more expensive. 12 valves that worth a crap with p7100 are drying up and the good ones still go for close to 20k then the whole cab design with 12valves suck, I used to have a great running 12v, but body was shot. I wanted to put drive train in a 3/4ton suburban and have something awesome but didn't have time. 

[dripley]

I have agree with @Dieselfuture. For what it cost me to p pump the truck i could buy 3 or four VP's. I have alteady bought one so i have 3 left before I am even. I have pros and cons on fuel addatives but the 2 stroke a good fuel pressure has served me well and I will continue both. Not trying say you are wrong at all, just my personal opinion. My present VP has 245k on it and seems to be working fine. Who knows maybe it will go another 100k.

[Mopar1973Man]

Remember if you remove the VP44. This will not resolve all the electronics on the truck still. Still going to have an ECM that will be screaming codes. There will be still the PCM and other computers. P7100 pump will not remove these computers. P7100 pumping a fly by wire cruise will disable cruise control for your truck. No way to feed fuel data to missing VP44. Lose the dynamic timing of the Vp44 for static timing of the p-pump.

[pepsi71ocean]

10 hours ago, JAG1 said:

Are you using two stroke in the fuel to bring the score value within range of Bosch specs?

 

In the context of this statement I have to agree with @Bulldog Bosch knew about the upcoming changes in fuel. They knew about ULSD and thus also expected a lower life span. While they did argue with the addition of the additive packet to low the hfrr diameter though.
 

 

[Bulldog]

Thankfully I have the skills to design and build the entire computer system from scratch, ECM, and all other modules if I want to. Second, I don't care about any other issues including the cruise control, I can fix, or build the cruise control system as a modular electronic block and have full control over it. Third, being able to run different fuels is a huge plus for me since I get free Jet-A from my aircraft mechanic friends. I also like to run 50/50 veg/#2 diesel and filtered crankcase oil/#2 diesel mixes in the summer in my 12 valves and have been for hundreds of thousands of miles, so having this ability back in this truck is also a plus. Fourth, in my case it would It will cost me $1500 to do the conversion.

 

The wife is telling me to "throw a new VP-44 on it and sell the piece of ****, and just keep driving the 95'" (her words, not mine). Which is an even easier option. She used to driving her little Toyota's that get 400k miles with not much more than timing belts and oil changes, so she's not real happy as to the amount of work I've put into the 2001 Dodge.

[Dieselfuture]

13 minutes ago, Bulldog said:

She used to driving her little Toyota's that get 400k miles with not much more than timing belts and oil changes, so she's not real happy as to the amount of work I've put into the 2001 Dodge.

I'll have to agree on this, I've always had good luck with older Hondas and Toyotas, minimum maintenance compared to others. I drive an Accord to work every day 150ml round trip and save all kinds of money on fuel and wear and tear that I would have spent driving my truck. I use the truck for what it's intended for and occasionally drive it to work if it sits too long. Funny, all the money I save I spend on the truck for things I want on it. In all honesty I trust my car more then the truck. But I like driving my truck more than I do the car. I just don't see a point putting all these miles on the truck and wear things out that cost twice as much to repair if not more. 

Some day when I don't have to worry about money, I'll just drive the truck everywhere. 

[dripley]

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Remember if you remove the VP44. This will not resolve all the electronics on the truck still. Still going to have an ECM that will be screaming codes. There will be still the PCM and other computers. P7100 pump will not remove these computers. P7100 pumping a fly by wire cruise will disable cruise control for your truck. No way to feed fuel data to missing VP44. Lose the dynamic timing of the Vp44 for static timing of the p-pump.

 

All the more reason to keep the VP. Maybe not a perfect pump at 10 benjamins but a p pump conversion of 40 benaimans, I would have to leave it to someone smarter than me to justify the swap and give me the money.

[mcknight77]

Caution thread hijack

[Guest 04Mach1]

9 hours ago, Bulldog said:

Ask any professional diesel mechanic that same question, and you'll get laughed at. Ask any consumer on the street that same question, you get a blank stare, or a laugh, or a shrug. You should not have to do anything but fuel the vehicle with quality fuel, and drive it. Change the oil and filters on schedule and get 500k to 1 million miles on these Cummins engines. This is the mileage a quality diesel engine with inline injection pump normally gets. My 12 valves get at least 500k to 700k, no work other than oil changes and filters before I rebuild them. On top of that, I've seen an average of 25MPG (empty) on one of my dually 1 tons!

 

Bosch knows the VP-44 design is flawed. Cummins knows this design is flawed. Bullydog, Sheid, DP, DAP. All of them also know it, but they sell lots of pumps to guys who keep throwing Benjamin Franklins at them 10 at a time, so they keep their mouths shut and keep rebuilding pumps. I'm sorry, but these are the facts, but don't take my word for it, ask a few 60 year old diesel mechanics. Or ask the many who have p-pumped their 24V engines. You'll find the majority say it's the best thing you could do with a 24V engine.

 

I am a Professional Diesel Mechanic, meaning I make my living by diagnosing and repairing diesel engines and have to say old school engines are fun to work on but let's face facts, they are becoming like the dinosaurs, extinct. Most of the professionals you are probably referring to likely only know the old technology and are in rural non-emissions enforced areas and lack the critical training and knowledge needed for electronic diesel engines, especially the modern diesel engine. I don't believe adapting old fuel injection technology to newer engines is the answer, for one thing is the CM551 ISB is only certified to meet US EPA emissions with a VP44 injection pump. Installing a P7100 on a CM551 ISB would violate Federal emissions law and subject the truck owner to hefty penalties. All it takes is one tree hugger to report the non-compliance of emissions to start the investigation leading to the penalties and forfeiture of the non-compliance truck.

 

My best advice as a Professional Diesel Mechanic is "I didn't buy it, build it, or break it. If you can't afford the repair it's time to park it or get rid of it".  Another little fun fact is if it's got boobs, tracks, or wheels it's going to give you trouble. If you want to be in the diesel game you have to pay to play. 

 

The Republic of California ruined the days of diesel engines that delivered consistent reliability and longevity with regular maintenance because they have a air quality problem, unfortunately the US EPA followed CARB's lead and ruined the reliability and longevity of diesel engines. We might as well get used to it since technology and laws will never revert back. 

 

Even with modern diesel engine fuel system failures they don't amount to what the modern diesel will with exhaust after treatment repairs. I make the biggest part of my living repairing emissions related failures, mostly DEF and SCR related. My experience relates to mostly class 7 and 8 trucks but the technology is the same no matter what size of engine is being used.

 

With that being said I'll go back to part of your quoted post above. I would and have strongly recommended to run 2 stroke in the fuel to owners of VE pumped 6BT's and VP pumped ISB's many times. Reason being is fuel lubrication was a whole lot better pre-2007 fuel which is the fuel the VE and VP were designed for. I think most VP failures pre-2007 fuel were likely due to Cummins poor choice in lift pump which didn't carry enough volume and pressure under load. Then we had Daimler which is the current owner of Freightliner, Detroit Diesel, Mercedes Benz, and many other brands come up with a brilliant idea of retrofitting our Rams to an in-tank lift pump which was a minor if any at all improvement over the Cummins / Carter lift pump. IMO if a constant 15-20 psi of fuel with 2 stroke oil which will get fuel condition closer to what Bosch designed the VP to operate with will greatly improve performance and longevity for a VP44 pump.

 

 

[pepsi71ocean]

10 hours ago, 04Mach1 said:

With that being said I'll go back to part of your quoted post above. I would and have strongly recommended to run 2 stroke in the fuel to owners of VE pumped 6BT's and VP pumped ISB's many times. Reason being is fuel lubrication was a whole lot better pre-2007 fuel which is the fuel the VE and VP were designed for. I think most VP failures pre-2007 fuel were likely due to Cummins poor choice in lift pump which didn't carry enough volume and pressure under load. Then we had Daimler which is the current owner of Freightliner, Detroit Diesel, Mercedes Benz, and many other brands come up with a brilliant idea of retrofitting our Rams to an in-tank lift pump which was a minor if any at all improvement over the Cummins / Carter lift pump. IMO if a constant 15-20 psi of fuel with 2 stroke oil which will get fuel condition closer to what Bosch designed the VP to operate with will greatly improve performance and longevity for a VP44 pump.

 

I will agree with this.

 

At one time I was on the phone with the local Cummins mechanic at the dodge dealership (after i brought in our 08 dodge for the PTO flash). Anyways, he couldn't work on any of the Ppump or the Vp trucks as he was completely unable to diagnose these issues. I feel bad for bugging mike with my woes, but this guy made me feel smart. I just feel bad for the dozens of dodges I had to help him out with. I hope he learned something from it thought.

[Dieselfuture]

One thing I can add to this reliability thing. If or when emp happen or law enforcement would want to use a smart device on new vehicles to shut them down remotely, is when I can see having all mechanical vehicle as a benefit. But if ether one of these events happen, I don't think it would matter much to what you have.

Idk just random thoughts 

Not high jacking, it's all related to a dead truck.

[JAG1]

Yeah Dieselfuture, the moment I first heard about all the computers and electronics associated with a diesel truck I was very disappointed. You know that stuff is troublesome. That is why I can't understand why self driving vehicles  That stuff goes out sudden, without warning and your out of luck at 70mph. I'm afraid that also means the Gov't. won't allow anyone to work on their own vehicles in the future.

 

Now I have really Hi Jacked this thread      It mopars fault.... he allows this stuff even leaves bolt bin out in the open.lol

Edited February 7, 2019 by JAG1

[Bulldog]

11 hours ago, 04Mach1 said:

 

With that being said I'll go back to part of your quoted post above. I would and have strongly recommended to run 2 stroke in the fuel to owners of VE pumped 6BT's and VP pumped ISB's many times. Reason being is fuel lubrication was a whole lot better pre-2007 fuel which is the fuel the VE and VP were designed for. I think most VP failures pre-2007 fuel were likely due to Cummins poor choice in lift pump which didn't carry enough volume and pressure under load. Then we had Daimler which is the current owner of Freightliner, Detroit Diesel, Mercedes Benz, and many other brands come up with a brilliant idea of retrofitting our Rams to an in-tank lift pump which was a minor if any at all improvement over the Cummins / Carter lift pump. IMO if a constant 15-20 psi of fuel with 2 stroke oil which will get fuel condition closer to what Bosch designed the VP to operate with will greatly improve performance and longevity for a VP44 pump.

 

11 hours ago, 04Mach1 said:

 

 

 Most people who buy these trucks don't know much about diesels in general and would not be willing or even know how to add 2 stroke lube to the fuel. That was my point. Those of us who know both the electrical and mechanical side of the newer trucks still cringe when we have to work on them for friends. If we were being paid to do it might be more fun, but after spending months diagnosing a Ford 6.0 with $500 in parts needed every month (yes, I said every 30 days), or it would not start. That's no fun. Whats going to happen because of all the expense, unreliability etc, is that the whole industry is going to change and there will be no more diesels (as we know them) very soon. 

 

And NO. I totally disagree that a diesel has to be expensive. As long as you have mechanical and or electrical skills, these trucks can be run very cheaply. I've paid at most $5200 for any one truck I have and I STILL expect them to go more than 500k without major repair, and they do in most cases (excluding the 2001 24V). I paid $2500 for my 1995 12V and it still runs after 445k miles of running every but cat piss through it.

 

As an engineer I know that Bosch has fuggered up on these designs, and they know it. I however do not have much data on reliability of the 2010 and newer trucks, so I can't speak much on them. The Achates engine and others will most likely take over just as Hybrid electrics become the dominant force because of these issues along with emissions becoming more strict.

 

 

[Dieselfuture]

30 minutes ago, JAG1 said:

I'm afraid that also means the Gov't. won't allow anyone to work on their own vehicles in the future.

I don't think that would happen, but never know. Majority of people don't want to do it anyway. More than likely insurance is who's going to push it. For better rates plug this thingy in your vehicle so we can track you and see how fast you're going and just everything we really want. Then most all new cars already have it built in, just a matter of time. No different than flu shots, still up to most people to chose if they want one or not, some places already forcing it on employees, if you don't get it you lose your job. Then the whole microchip thing, as of now it's still a choice, but time is running short before we all have it or you just won't be able to pay bills cause no one will be set up to accept anything else. Anyone that doesn't think it's coming to town near you, keep lying to yourself. 

Now it's hijacked  

[JAG1]

Yep, good Job Dieselfuture  You get Hi Jack of the year award and an M73M certification patch for you jacket. Still waiting for IBMobile final design.

Edited February 7, 2019 by JAG1

[Dieselfuture]

28 minutes ago, JAG1 said:

Yep, good Job Dieselfuture  You get Hi Jack of the year award and an M73M certification patch for you jacket. Still waiting for IBMobile final design.

M73M is going to have to create a corner just for us 2 to hang out in