Quad over fueling even starting at 60%

[the7t7]

Im having trouble with my initial set up. I started with a mid hp injector tune from here and I believe I’m still too rich even with  starting  fueling at 60% (level 3, not even messing with pump tap). I don’t have big black smoke now but I have significant dark gray smoke under heavy throttle until 24 psi. Light to medium throttle is better and clears up at 17psi. Interestingly I’m coming from a smarty custom tune set up that also had the same issues which is one of the reasons I switched. This doesn’t seem right. Also wierd is I did the valet level 1 testing and I had trouble finding a starting point (even after I figured out that I needed to reload the tune after I changed anything that had a “save” buttton in the upper right”). 30 % behaved as it probably should, putting along. 100% seemed right too. But I was started getting light haze at 50%. Could I have bigger injectors than I thought or other issues? Light throttle cruising is fine, idle is fine, WO after 24psi and 2k is fast and clean

 

Here’s my truck:

 

98.5 2500, 150hp DAP injectors, Head studs, heavier valve springs, DPP compound turbo s475/stock Holset, built AT, DPP intake horn, intake heater delete, FASS 150

 

Here’s the latest tune. I Started with 2 deg on the fuel load , low psi, and light throttle and made the current changes after lowering fuel but it didn’t do much.

 

Power Levels: 6

 

Timing

Fuel Load Timing: 3

Low PSI Timing Reduct: 3

Timing Reduct Scaling: 100

Light Throttle Timing  Adv: 3

Light Throttle Timing Load Limit: 30

 

Timing vs rpm

1500: 14 

2000:18

2500:22

3000: 25

Timing Max:26
 

Wiretap

Pump Stretch:1600

TPS Pump max:100

TPS Pump Min0

Minimum Pump Tap Fueling Percentage:0

Pump Low Boost Scale PSI: 10

 

Boost Scaling:40

 

RPM Limit:3500

 

Power Reduction:

 

0 PSI %:60

1 PSI %:62

2 PSI %:63

3 PSI %:66

4 PSI %:70

5 PSI %:74

6 PSI %:78

7 PSI %:82

8 PSI %:86

9 PSI %:90

10 PSI %:94

11 PSI %:99

12 PSI %:103

13 PSI %:107

14 PSI %:111

15 PSI %:115

16 PSI %:119

18 PSI %:124

20 PSI %:129

22 PSI %:135

24 PSI %:139

26 PSI %:139

28 PSI %:139

30 PSI %:139

 

The low % start and steep ramp was a effort to cut back on smoke but still fuel at higher psi 

[Mopar1973Man]

What were the injectors popped to? I'm assuming you are running the same 7 x 0.010 VCO I'm running. Running twins you should be able to clear the smoke up quickly. I tend to lean back on the injectors because if the pop pressure is too low the smoke will be tough to clean up. This is due to the fact the droplets are too big and will take more timing to clean up -or- increase the pop pressure. This is a reason I opted for 320 bar when DAP built my 7 x 0.010 injectors. I'm working on cleaning up with full wiretap now but only running HX35/40 hybrid (60/60/12).

 

More on my play time.

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by Mopar1973Man

[the7t7]

I'm not sure on POP pressure. I had a local shop install them when they did the headwork. I will get with them on Monday to see if they kept any info. It might end up I have to pull them and have them tested just if I can't get it cleaned up any better. I'll try some of your settings today or tomorrow. Do you have any advice on the load/throttle/boost timing settings to reduce smoke when the pressure is low.

[Me78569]

sounds like poor injectors. 

 

 

My 7 x .-012's started at %64 and was smoke free.

[Mopar1973Man]

22 hours ago, the7t7 said:

Do you have any advice on the load/throttle/boost timing settings to reduce smoke when the pressure is low.

 

I'm starting at 75% smoke free on up. The only time smoke gets into the picture yet is the wiretap. When it hit there is a cloud for second and then gone. 

 

The Low Reduct timing I'm at 4* with a 50% scaling. That would be my only change.  Fuel starts at 75% and works up to 120% only. 

 

If your at 60% and fighting smoke still leads me back to injectors. 

[the7t7]

Yes, I think you're right about my injectors. I paid attention to the engine load at idle and its around 7% which would suggest I have a lower pop pressure? I did some testing yesterday and moved timing around quite a bit and could not really get rid of the smoke in the lower (<17psi) high load situation i.e. when I give it 3/4 to full throttle and the load goes up to 75% there is a cloud of dark grey smoke that doesn't clear up until psi gets over 26 or so. What I need is for my turbos to spool up very quickly.

 

I'm a little confused about reduct scaling. If this is the steepness of the timing reduct, then as values decrease from 100% does reduct happen quicker or slower. And do you still get the full reduct if scaling is less that 100? 

 

Thanks for the help! 

[Me78569]

Quote

Timing Reduction Scaling

0-%100 This allows you to set how much timing gets pulled from the Low PSI timing reduct number set.  You may want more timing down low, but want to pull timing up top.  Scaling function will limit max timing but allow for the map to calculate off of the max timing until that point is reached. IE: if timing reduction is set to 5* and scaling is set at %50 you will get a max reduction of 2.5* ( 5 * .50 = 2.5) but if the map calls from %50 you will get 2.5* at %50.  It will effectively allow for you to reach your max sooner. 

 

[the7t7]

I've read both you and mike's tuning guides cover to cover (both very helpful BTW!) but still don't really understand that explanation. Part of it seems contradictory. In one place it says that "scaling function will limit max timing" and then later says "it will effectively allow for you to reach your max sooner". Sorry I know I'm being dense

 

On another note I found out I have Dynamite diesel's DDP150 injectors with pop pressure set at 290 Bar. They said the don't really recommend setting them more than 5 Bar more but I could have a local shop do it if I wanted. You guys have any recommendations there?

[Me78569]

DDP are known to be dirty and hot.  we see this alot " why can't I clean up DDP / Why so hot" what ends up happening is the end user ditches the DDP injectors, I know it hurts as they are hugely $$, and getting new injectors. 

 

Pop wont help the injectors much as they use marine nozzles rather than street application nozzles.  



as for timing scaling.  the below chart is an example.  both settings pull the same amount of overall timing at %100 tps input 0 psi boost, but the higher timing lower scaling reaches that 2.5* of pull faster related to tps input.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Me78569

[the7t7]

Ah! Now it makes sense. Thanks!

Sucky news about injectors. 

 

If I were to get new ones, what do you guys recommend for clean tunes? Local guy didn’t recommend Industrial Injection. He said he would go with Haley Speed.

[Me78569]

depends on your budget.

 

If you are on a budget it is hard to beat DAP or DFI.  I have ran sets of both for many miles with no issues on either.

 

If you want hte best of the best then infinite and Haley are good.  

[Mopar1973Man]

Something to consider. Injector builders are typically building for maximum HP/TQ output. Doesn't mean that it going to be a good daily driver injector.

 

Like myself now playing outside the normal realm and jump to the 7 x 0.010 @ 320 bar injectors it does change the playground a bunch. My flow rates are not as high as @Dieselfuture quoted me I'm actually reduced flow rate but clean burning they are for sure. MPG is still early in the game but looks promising. 

[the7t7]

I just spoke to Matt at DAP and who just sold me some 7x..012 voc injectors. He felt confident I could build a clean tune with those and my compound set up. The learning curve on building this truck has been steep. I wish I had known everything I know now before I tried to build this “sleeper shop truck”. I could have saved myself some time and money. 

[Dieselfuture]

34 minutes ago, the7t7 said:

I could have saved myself some time and money. 

Knowledge is priceless. 

[kzimmer]

4 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

Knowledge is priceless. 

"For everything else, there's MasterCard."

[Mopar1973Man]

There is a reason it took me 17 years to finally buy 150HP injectors. I been doing my own study work to make sure choices I make are going to be a working choice. 

[Me78569]

18 hours ago, the7t7 said:

I just spoke to Matt at DAP and who just sold me some 7x..012 voc injectors. He felt confident I could build a clean tune with those and my compound set up. The learning curve on building this truck has been steep. I wish I had known everything I know now before I tried to build this “sleeper shop truck”. I could have saved myself some time and money. 

you should be able to take any of my large injector tunes and run them without much work.  

[the7t7]

1 hour ago, Me78569 said:

you should be able to take any of my large injector tunes and run them without much work.  

Thanks! That’s the first thing I’m going to try.

[the7t7]

On 2/5/2019 at 7:12 AM, Me78569 said:

you should be able to take any of my large injector tunes and run them without much work.  

Well I installed the injectors and used your 7x012 daily tune and it worked great. Much better smoke control down low. 

 

I couldn’t really test it much as we’ve been getting dumped on here in Bend. Also can’t test it now because it died on me and I has to have it towed back to my shop. No fuel pressure. After some testing, I think it’s signal from the ecm. Fuel pump works with power and 3 different relays didn’t work so I tested the ecm lead going to the relay. It’s putting out 6v when the key is turned on so I think that’s the problem. I’m going to make another post in the 2nd gen Powertrain section. 

[Mopar1973Man]

I replied to the other post on the 6V issue.