Caving in and asking for diagnosis help!

[wevegoneplaid]

Hello everyone,

If you look at my sig, you will see I don't have a normal Dodge Cummins truck. I have all the looks of an old Ford, the power of a 24v, and the electrical gremlins of a shoehorned harness.

My stubborn side has finally given in to ask for diagnosis help because it seems there are many different things that could be causing the issues I'm experiencing.

 

Context:

To make a long, complicated story as condensed as I can, I sold my truck because I'm moving to Germany in a few months and it would NOT fit on the roads there. I sold it to a kid on Fort Bragg and I should have known better. Zero mechanical experience but swore up and down he would learn. Fast forward a couple weeks, and he claims that the truck died at 40 mph and he had to limp it home. Since then, it would hard start and he couldn't go over 40 without it dying. Additionally, other weird stuff started to happen like a random transmission leak due to a "loose bolt" (which never happened before) and struggling to get up hills (sounds like fuel). He didn't listen to me much about it "slipping" at 40-45 mph, and had the TC replaced. It didn't solve the problem. He panicked and wanted out from under it, and I am a bleeding heart at the end of the day (for my truck, not for him). I decided to "buy" it back, less some money for my time and butt pain.

 

What it's doing currently:

Cranks over freely without starting. When it does start (maybe 1 time out of 10), it runs for about a half second and instantly dies. When it does this, I hear the whine of (what I think to be) the turbo as it unspools. I don't remember hearing this before, but I've not had this particular issue yet. It *did* have an EDGE CTS, but it stopped working before I sold it. I have pulled it out and put it back in twice, and I can't get the damn thing to power on. OBD2 port is active, and I've done a lot of troubleshooting with it - I can't help but think the problems are related. 

 

Codes:

OBD2 says P1698, key bump says P1694. I had these codes since before selling the truck and it ran fine. I figured they were because of the BD Top Speed Eliminator. I will be removing that soon to see what happens.

OBD2 *was* pulling MAP sensor error when the non-functioning EDGE was plugged in. Code goes away after unplugging Edge and completing the circuit.

 

Notes:

• I hear the lift pump when I cycle on the ignition, though I know that doesn't necessarily mean it's sending fuel pressure.
• Ccd on overhead; it was there before it started dying.
• No tachometer, oil pressure gauge; died months before selling (figured ccd issue, maybe BD eliminator again).
• Codes have been there for months before this non-running issue.
• Replaced the cam position sensor near the VP44 (attempting to fix tach, no dice).
• OBD2 reader says VSS reads at 45mph on live metric data and I can't tell if my cheap code reader is confused or if the computer really thinks the truck is at 45 mph. That would obviously cause issues. Coincidentally, that is the speed at which the kid claimed the truck was having issues and died.
• Has brand new torque converter; shop test drove it and shifted fine, and it died going down the road. I spoke to them, and they're a reputable diesel shop - they were also getting inconsistent readings with the edge plugged in (MAP code), and unplugged (no MAP code). They pretty much said good luck kid, unless you want to pay us to help you, at which point he panicked and called me.
• I don't know where he took it to do an oil change, but EVERYTHING is coated in oil, both engine and tranny. I'm honestly a bit flabbergasted.

 

What I think it *could* be out of the fuel, air, and spark equation required for combustion engines:

Fuel: air in lines, bad lift pump, bad injection pump

Spark/Timing: Bad ECM, bad ECM/PCM ground (Mopar man's shortened ground job completed a few months ago), new cam position sensor kaput/bad wiring

Air: I'm not too sure.

 

Actions taken thus far:

Primed the fuel system.

Messed with BD Top speed eliminator to see if causing any interference

 

Next steps:

I am cracking open the fuel lines today to rule out air in the lines as well as testing the fuel pressure. I'm hoping like hell it's not the VP44.

Cleaning all the harnesses with dielectric grease.

Pull wiring harness and ECM, send both off for repair (ouch my wallet).

 

Could it be in limp mode? It really seems like it wants to run when it fires up, but immediately it is killed. I can't tell if the fuel/air/spark is off, or the computer is purposely killing it.

 

Also, I'm wondering if the tranny changes have anything to do with it. Maybe output speed sensor is bad now that it's soaked in random oil. I have previously changed the ABS sensor on top of the rear diff that made the truck buck like a bull.

 

 

Honestly I'm just hoping for some direction and feedback because it feels like it could be a million things at a grand to fix each. I can try to take a video later today of the start up/die and post it for more metrics.

 

Thanks for reading this lengthy post about my fecal-show situation.

[Mopar1973Man]

P1698 and 1694 are CCD network issues. The data bus is not talking between the PCM or ECM at all. So all gauges will act goofy. 

 

 

 

 

 

[wevegoneplaid]

Thanks mopar man. I was troubleshooting and struggling with the ccd quite some time before I sold it and it now refuses to run. I've read those articles quite a lot, but I don't have a DRB3 scan tool. I'm going to likely break down and test each wire with a voltmeter/ohmmeter.

 

I'm beginning to suspect the BD Top Speed Eliminator to be the cause of those issues, as it is right in the middle of the CCD circuit.

 

However, as I said it was running fine before with those codes, so it leads me to believe that the non-running is a separate issue from them. I could be wrong, however. I'm just not sure.

 

Additionally, do you have any advice on how to obtain a DRB3 without paying an arm and a leg? I saw some "emulator" online, and about to start calling dealerships to see if they will scan it for me. 

 

Edit: Another silly question - is the data bus an actual location or just the circuit? I've heard that there is a tiny black box near the steering column. Is that where both circuits terminate at and go to the gauges? I've looked at your excellent color coded wiring diagram extensively, but never did find where they terminate. 

Edited March 16, 2019 by wevegoneplaid

[Mopar1973Man]

I would pull the BD out. Most likely junk.

[wevegoneplaid]

That's what I figured. I'll pull it out today and give an update. Thanks for your quick responses. You're the man!

[wevegoneplaid]

Moparman, I’ve pulled the bd out and the ccd error is gone. No more obd2 codes, but key bump codes are now 1492 and 1693 companion code. 

 

No change to starting situation. I caught a few seconds on video. 

 

I know 1492 is the battery temp sensor. That thing is likely long gone and just free wires hanging at this point. I assume that it wouldn’t cause this no starting issue. 

 

 

I captured a second, more clear video. Removing the BD did indeed fix my tach, which I’m excited about. 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2019 by wevegoneplaid

[Mopar1973Man]

Replace the battery temp sensor it controls post grid heat and battery charging.

 

As for starting reprime the system crack 1, 3, 4 injector lines and get it running.

[wevegoneplaid]

Man of the mopar,

 

I have cracked all three and cranked many times; 3 and 4 have ample amount of fuel spewing out, and 1 has barely anything at all. 

 

I have cranked the engine along the lines of 10-15 times with maybe 5 false starts like in the video. Still, 1 is a dribble of diesel if anything at all. I began the exercise with cracking the inlet bolt on the VP with a 7/8 wrench and priming the system to ensure no air in the lines.

 

Shall I keep trucking and try to get bank 1 to spew fuel like 3 and 4?

[Mopar1973Man]

3 hours ago, wevegoneplaid said:

have cracked all three and cranked many times; 3 and 4 have ample amount of fuel spewing out, and 1 has barely anything at all. 

 

Ok, the ones are flowing close them and leave the weak one open and open like 5 or 6 if you can reach it. You need at least 3 lines with good flow to make it start. 

 

If its troublesome, disconnect the grid heaters at the battery on the driver side. Then spray a small squirt of starting fluid at the turbo and light it up. Some starters are too weak to spin fast enough to get it to light off. Make sure the batteries are full charged too. Cables are in good condition. 

 

NOTE: The starter has 4 brushes on the armature. If one fails then you only have 50% of a starter and cranks slower. 

[wevegoneplaid]

Mr. Nelson,

 

I cracked 1, 5, 6 - 5 and 6 have plenty of juice as well, 1 has still no more than a dribble. Is there any possible way 1 could be clogged?

 

I closed all 3 back up, unplugged grid heater, and gave it starting fluid while cranking this morning.

I also cracked them back open and used starting fluid and took a video.

 

It will run only on starting fluid until it's burned up, then back to fruitless cranking. While burning the starting fluid, black smoke from exhaust - when cranking with no start, just white smoke. 

 

Keeping the grid heater plugged in with a shot of starting fluid is a certifiably bad idea, right?

 

Curiously enough, when I tighten line 1 back up, there is more fuel that comes out of it then than when it's cranking. It gets stuck in the threads?

Edited March 18, 2019 by wevegoneplaid

[dripley]

The grid heaters can ignite the either in the entire intake system.

[wevegoneplaid]

I thought as much dripley. Uploading the cranking w/ starting fluid vids now. 

 

I'm running through the possibilities in my head;

• bad compression
• bad fuel/air mixture
• improper timing
• lift pump not sending enough pressure?

 

Perhaps my starter is going weak/broken armature as Mr. Nelson mentioned, but I can't tell since I don't have a good starter to compare it against. Batteries are definitely weak. Still, seems like it would take off anyway with the starting fluid I pushed in. I know it was likely too much but I was determined to get the damn thing running to no avail.

 

 

I feel like even though line 1 is not sending much fuel, 3, 4, 5, and 6 seem to be delivering fine and it should run until it's pulling fuel through.

 

 

I am pulling the batteries and the starter to rule those out completely - taking them all to AZ to have tested/charged.

Edited March 17, 2019 by wevegoneplaid

[Mopar1973Man]

50 minutes ago, wevegoneplaid said:

Is there any possible way 1 could be clogged?

 

Most likely not clogged. 5 cylinders will run with a miss. Even 3 cylinders will run, like 3 cylinder high idle. 

 

43 minutes ago, wevegoneplaid said:

improper timing

 

Possible if your cranking pressure is above 12 PSI on the fuel pressure.

 

43 minutes ago, wevegoneplaid said:

lift pump not sending enough pressure?

 

These engines will start and run without ZERO fuel pressure.

 

44 minutes ago, wevegoneplaid said:

bad fuel/air mixture

 

Not possible. Diesels are wide range of fuel to air ratios. 

 

44 minutes ago, wevegoneplaid said:

bad compression

 

Bad compression will have a ton of blowby vapor from the crankcase vent and typically losing oil out the vent. 

[wevegoneplaid]

I learn so much every time you post. As I’m sure you can tell, this is my first diesel and quite the learning experience. 

 

I will update the thread when starter and battery checks are complete. 

 

As a humorous aside, will you be my dad?

[Mopar1973Man]

4 minutes ago, wevegoneplaid said:

I learn so much every time you post.

 

That what we are for, everyone here is here to help others learn all the tricks. 

 

4 minutes ago, wevegoneplaid said:

As a humorous aside, will you be my dad?

 

Oh blow by... I'm sure you not to this point right? 

 

[wevegoneplaid]

Good god, that’s horrid! I actually did a blow by test about a month ago on my oil filler cap and nary a bit of rattle. I remembered doing that after you mentioned it last post, in the midst of my blown ring nightmare daydream. Daymare?

 

Heres to hoping it’s the easiest and cheapest solution of battery charging and/or starter weakness!!

 

[wevegoneplaid]

Moparman or other good samaritans,

 

Batteries tested good - charged to 100% now.

Starter tested good - visual inspection also passed muster.

 

A couple false starts after cleaning everything and rewiring dual battery setup, back to cranking no start.

 

Could it be the injection pump? Or perhaps the controller for the injectors is not spraying them at all or properly? Tomorrow I will  test fuel pressure to eliminate the lift pump as the culprit I suppose, and pull all wiring harness plugs out and plug back in.

 

 

Of interesting note that may/may not be related; the truck is experiencing OBD2 issues. The edge CTS won't power on from OBD port, and hasn't for a while. I tested another tuner for my Mustang, also no dice. Both tuners work fine in the known good OBD2 port of my mustang. The only thing that IS powered by the OBD2 port is the diagnostic scan tool, which is intermittent at best. If I slightly jiggle the wire it will shut off then back on. In the mustang, it's stable no matter how much jiggling. This leads me to believe the port is underpowered or the wiring is bad, assuming the tuners require more watts than the scan tool does. No amount of finessing or jiggling got even a peep out of both known good tuners in the truck's port. I have tested the IOD fuse with a multimeter and it is fine.

 

The truck ran fine with these persistent OBD2 issues for about a month, but at this point I'm dry out of ideas and grasping at any straw that isn't "replace VP44."

Edited March 17, 2019 by wevegoneplaid

[IBMobile]

Go here for steep by steep no start VP44 diagnostic tests.

 

https://www.bluechipdiesel.com/runningtests

[wevegoneplaid]

IBMobile, thank you greatly for that test guide. That thing is awesome. I have performed all tests but the hot wire test, which I will do tomorrow after I test fuel pressure.

 

If it's the VP, looks like I'll be swapping to a P pump.

[IBMobile]

Note:  I have a Fuel Boss lift pump and start the engine with 0 PSI to the VP44 every time.   So if your lift pump is putting out 0 pressure but fuel flow past it is good then that should not be a factor.