Quadzilla: too much lag & smoke

[Miami Outlaw Diesel]

brothers.  i have a 2002 Dodge Ram 3500, 5.9 Cummins, twin turbo (66/75), cam, fire ring head, 300hp injectors, hot rod pump, methane, suncoast to put it down, and a Quadzilla V2.  I am getting way too much smoke and way too much lag.  it sucks.  I live in Miami and can't find a soul to tune my truck.  so I am reaching out here, hoping to find someone willing to point me in the right direction in setting up my Quadzilla.  Also, sadly, if i set the level above 1 (say 2, 3, 4,5,, or 6), she bogs down.  PLEASE HELP. FUUUDGE

[Marcus2000monster]

Welcome to this forum! You will enjoy your stay here! These are the two main tuning guys and I’ll tag them and hopefully they will be able to help you get a good tune set up. @Mopar1973Man @Me78569

[Mopar1973Man]

Uhhhh.... I know this beyond my ability. 

 

@Quadzilla Power and @Quadzilla Marco

 

Would be more able to fix this. The fuel injectors are huge. I'm not sure how to handle something that big. I'm in the 150 HP injector playground with a single (60/60/12) and much smaller tires at 30 inches and final ratio of 3.69:1. 

 

I'm going to suggest you upload your tune to the site so we can look over what you are running. I'm sure you're going to have to reach down really low in the CANBus fuel. Then the timing will have to cranked up fairly good. 

 

Take a peek at the articles...

 

You might look at the big injector tunes we've got and try them...

https://mopar1973man.com/files/category/22-quadzilla-standard-tunes/

 

Moved to Quadzilla Forum to get more eyes on the matter...

Edited March 23, 2019 by Mopar1973Man

[Me78569]

Who's injectors?  What tune are you running?  Post datalogs. 

 

What have you done so far to tune it? Have you followed the tuning guide?

 

What turbo is the 66?  Seems like a bad setup for a twin setup.   Normally guys run a 62 /75 setup.

[Miami Outlaw Diesel]

my bad.  i'm not up on the tuning part of my truck.  I have immersed myself into doing everything else on my truck.  i figured this Quadzillia would be a cinch.  not the case.  

injectors by DAP.  Running the V2 tuning; which was given to me by DAP.  I have not followed any tuning guides; it's like algebra when I look at it and intimidating.  i don't know how to do data logs.   I'm fuked up.   Turbos, Borg Warner 66mm on top, Borg Warner 75mm on bottom.  I had a smaller turbo at first (54) and blew it up.  My setup was influenced by Felix Aleman (Outlaw Diesel Miami).

[Mopar1973Man]

1 minute ago, Miami Outlaw Diesel said:

My setup was influenced by Felix Aleman (Outlaw Diesel Miami).

 

That is something I don't suggest. I see this a lot where people attempt to copy someone else design but never quite get it right. You need to build one step at a time and fix bugs in the design as you go along. Using someone else design may or may not work out very well. Depending on the design and purpose of the use. 

 

3 minutes ago, Miami Outlaw Diesel said:

injectors by DAP.

 

Smoke can be altered by the pop pressure of the injectors. This is a double sided sword. One side you can raise the pop pressure and clean up the burn. Then the other side of the sword is that with higher pop pressures you lose some flow rate. I would consider the having them pop tested again if you unable to clean it up with tuning. 

 

6 minutes ago, Miami Outlaw Diesel said:

Quadzillia would be a cinch.

 

Quadzilla is super easy. Try Smarty Touch on and you think twice about how easy Quadzilla is. 

 

Basically you need to build a fuel map and timing map first and run level 3. Forget the wire tap for now. Simply more timing is needed to clean up smoke basically you need to injector fuel early to get enough compression heat to vaporize the fuel to make it go BANG! When the timing is too retarded the fuel sizzles and smokes and produces no power. Now the CANBus fuel map is easy just figure your starting point using level 1 and start building a fuel map on up. 

 

As for tunning it's not once and you're done. Nope. I've now released 3 versions of the same tune fixing issues one at a time. I'm soon going to release another update and fix things from day to day driving. 

 

@Miami Outlaw Diesel I've got to ask what axle ratio and what size tires are you running?

 

[Miami Outlaw Diesel]

i have a lot to digest.  thanks for all your help.  3:55 and sitting on 22's.

[Mopar1973Man]

12 minutes ago, Miami Outlaw Diesel said:

3:55 and sitting on 22's.

 

Need tire size too. I'm trying to figure your final ratio out. This will make a difference in the tune, 

 

Like me, I dropped the 265's and sitting down on 245's which are a 30-inch tire. This affects the fuel curve and how quickly you can bring in the fuel without smoke. So if your ratio is 3.55 and less then you are going to need a much deeper cut of fuel and for a longer period till boost. 3.55 and higher ratio you can clean up smoke and spool much quicker so fuel can be brought in faster and get the wiretap in sooner. So this is what I figure the fuel curve too. 

 

So just in me dropping from 265's to 245's tires, it changed the final ratio from 3.55:1 to 3.69:1 this produces more torque at the rear axles and the smaller tires let the torque out to the ground easier. Then the ratio allows for fast spool up and acceleration has some G force in it now. So the final ratio has an impact to the tune. This is also a factor why one mans hardware does not work out the same for another man. Being there is other things that could impact the final output of your hardware and tune. 

 

Just thinking of the timing. Being you most likely have larger than stock you going to need to lean on the low boost timing and the percentage. This will allow you to have a fairly deep amount of retard of timing to get those turbos spooled up. As for the exact number I'm not sure what will work. Being this is based on the timing max.

 

Just more food to digest...

Edited March 23, 2019 by Mopar1973Man

[Miami Outlaw Diesel]

lots and lots to digest.  i feel like i am taking course in a different language!!!  omg.  the exact tire size is: 35x12.50R22.

[trreed]

55 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Smoke can be altered by the pop pressure of the injectors. This is a double sided sword. One side you can raise the pop pressure and clean up the burn. Then the other side of the sword is that with higher pop pressures you lose some flow rate. I would consider the having them pop tested again if you unable to clean it up with tuning. 

Mike this isn't pop pressure.  It's about a lot of fuel.  He says it's like algebra to him.  So point him to the tune repository, make sure he can load a large injector compound tune, and see if anything improves.  

https://mopar1973man.com/forum/185-standard-quadzilla-adrenaline-tunes/

Edited March 23, 2019 by trreed

[Mopar1973Man]

So your final ratio is very low at about 3.22:1 which is why the truck struggles to clean up. To just get back to 3.55 ratio your axle gears would have to be 3.93:1 or for that axle you want 4.10 gears optimally... this would change the acceleration curve seriously.

3 minutes ago, trreed said:

Mike this isn't pop pressure.  It's about a lot of fuel.

 

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Uhhhh.... I know this beyond my ability. 

 

I admitted early this is partly out my scope. I'm making an honest stab in the dark. 

[Miami Outlaw Diesel]

the guys at Florida Diesel mention the upgrade in gears.  but my man Felix was there and disagreed; he kept saying all you need is a tune.  gotta say, once I am out of that first couple seconds of lag, I am a happy camper.  

[trreed]

Both items may be necessary.  We do need to figure out your tune though.  Is there a way for you to share your current tune with us?

[Mopar1973Man]

Fine a set of stock sized tires to temporarily mount on the truck and see the difference. 31-inch was stock size typically but even 30-inch was stock too. As tires go up in size the lower the final ratio. Optimal for these truck is in the 3.55 to 3.73 final ratio. 

[Miami Outlaw Diesel]

this is the tune that i believe i am using.  https://mopar1973man.com/cummins/articles.html/24-valve-2nd-generation_50/51_engine/59_fuel/quadzilla-adrenaline-custom-tuning-in-depth-v2-tuning-r483/

[trreed]

The one in the screen shots?

[Me78569]

1 hour ago, Miami Outlaw Diesel said:

my bad.  i'm not up on the tuning part of my truck.  I have immersed myself into doing everything else on my truck.  i figured this Quadzillia would be a cinch.  not the case.  

injectors by DAP.  Running the V2 tuning; which was given to me by DAP.  I have not followed any tuning guides; it's like algebra when I look at it and intimidating.  i don't know how to do data logs.   I'm fuked up.   Turbos, Borg Warner 66mm on top, Borg Warner 75mm on bottom.  I had a smaller turbo at first (54) and blew it up.  My setup was influenced by Felix Aleman (Outlaw Diesel Miami).

What borg warner 66?  What are the full specs of each turbo?   T3 or T4?  

 

 

A tune isn't going to solve your issue.  The first step should be loading up my large injector tunes and trying them, but you also need to SERIOUSLY consider a gearing a change.  4.10's will make a world of difference. 

[kzimmer]

First of all, beautiful truck. Good job on the build.

 

What is your converter stall RPM? I'm wondering if you made the same mistake as I did and got a low stall converter. Low stall, big turbo, all dog on the low end until it lights up. Super lame on the green light. I'm putting a Goerend stock stall in mine next month and pulling out a POS low stall unit I had. I'm really excited to spool faster. With my lockup switch, and second gear lockup ability, low stall converter is moot for me. I'd rather get the turbos lit.

 

There are a lot of good points in the above posts. I'll talk about what I know from personal experience. YMMV.

 

I ran 7x.014 injectors with the quad. They were a little hard to control smoke with power. Better with V2 but not great. When I checked the injectors with the pop tester, they were as low as 280 bar, and a mixed bag up to 295 maybe. I bumped these up to 335 ish +/- 5 bar (I'm sorry I can't remember the exact number at the moment, but that's the ballpark). I immediately noticed that I was able to add more fuel down low in the sub 10 psi range, smoke was much better, and it spooled the turbo like it never had before. THIS IS PURELY EXPERIMENTAL. Your milage may very. However, it's a cheap experiment. I don't believe I lost any fuel flow in the top end even with the higher pop.

 

The truck doesn't have to smoke a lot, even with 300 HP injectors. The 7x.014's I had were dirty, and I was able to clean them up reasonably. Follow the tuning guides and you can make as much or as little smoke as you feel necessary. Once you get going on it you'll fly through it. Just start slow.

 

Timing is a tough one, no two VP44's seem to be the same. Listen to your truck and watch the tail pipe. It'll tell you if it's not happy. Check out some other tunes and look at they're timing settings. Read about them. Play with low boost high throttle timing reduction to pick up some low end spool time. Tinker. You'll get it right. Not today. Not tomorrow. But you will. Take your time.

 

I too have 35" tires and 3.55's. The truck drives fine. Would 4.10's drive better when towing? F yeah they would. Would it improve lockup and OD shift timing that for some reason no one has the tuning ability to alter? F yeah they would. Are they needed? F no they aren't. My truck drives fine, even with the garbage low stall converter. Again, I do want 4.10's, I think there's big benefit in doing so. But I don't believe it's going to render your truck non drivable. That thing's going to kick *** and take names. Don't give up.

 

Also: Torque management. Enough said there. Possible to overcome, but hard to get consistent results.

Edited March 23, 2019 by kzimmer

[Mopar1973Man]

7 hours ago, kzimmer said:

Timing is a tough one, no two VP44's seem to be the same. Listen to your truck and watch the tail pipe. It'll tell you if it's not happy. Check out some other tunes and look at they're timing settings. Read about them. Play with low boost high throttle timing reduction to pick up some low end spool time. Tinker. You'll get it right. Not today. Not tomorrow. But you will. Take your time.

 

It took me 3 years to get the Quadzilla all figured out. I'm still learning new tricks all the time. Start easy. Set it for level 3 and work with only the timing and the CANBus fuel. 

 

---

 

Another tuning tip...

 

With timing, you want to set the timing so you get the lowest engine load possible with minimal knock/rattle. So start with 16, 19, 22, 25. I'm thinking with the amount of fuel you are going to be needing even more than this but its a starting place. One that worked with my old 7 x 0.0085 which were worn out was 15, 19, 23, 27 this gave +4 spread between bands getting the timing up fast in the RPM's. This might work better with large nozzles. Not sure but just odd thoughts running through my head. 

 

As for fuel...

 

Set for level 1 and keep working the valet mode down till you can accelerate heavy without smoke. Now switch up to level 2 now work your low boost fuel till you can reach 100% without smoke. This will build the defuel band to get the turbos to light. Now switch up to level 3 and build your entire fuel curve from the 100% to 150%. 

 

Again this is not done overnight, or in one day. Takes days of testing and debugging to get right. This why most Canned Tuners are OK for smaller injectors but absolutely suck for larger. The timing map is all wrong and the fuel map is too aggressive and smoke is typically a big issue with Canned Tuners. Bigger the injector the more timing typically needed, and more defuel needed down low. 

[dieselautopower]

HI,  We spoke in person at the event in November.   You have a very clean 2nd gen.  Your truck looks great! 

 

It was suggested that you could go with the custom tuning first as it was free.

 

Smaller top turbo (62mm) and gear change would both make the truck more responsive.  When we spoke you did not want to have your cruising characteristics modified.  Heck try/borrow a set of stock sized tires/rims (if you do not have a 10 lug conversion)  You can see with less than 1 hour work how much more responsive it would be if you made some changes.