Head gasket replacement

[AH64ID]

On 3/29/2019 at 10:44 PM, dripley said:

@Dieselfuture I notice a spray pattern on top of the piston. Mine are solid black on the entire piston top. 

 

On 3/30/2019 at 6:12 AM, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Same here. Timing advancement of the Edge Comp?

 

 

How often do you tow heavy, vs just drive it easy?

 

I'm going to guess you spend more time empty/easy than heavy up a grade. 

 

The spray pattern is where the flame cleans the piston off, and that takes high heat. 

[dripley]

14 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

 

 

 

How often do you tow heavy, vs just drive it easy?

 

I'm going to guess you spend more time empty/easy than heavy up a grade. 

 

The spray pattern is where the flame cleans the piston off, and that takes high heat. 

You hit it on the head. Have not been at all for the past couple years. Pretty up and down the interstate for the past 60k. Even when I was moving the rv, I only did that 4 to 6 times a year. Maybe only 10 to 15% of my miles are towing heavy.

 

Here is something to compare. My rockers and shafts were scored. The scoring is not the comparison I speak of. Its the rocker assemblies.

The oily rockers are mine. The bridges, mine on the left as in each pair. These are out of a 6.7 with the updated rocker shaft, added oil groove. 

2002Ramparts (2).pdf

[Dieselfuture]

31 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

I'm going to guess you spend more time empty/easy than heavy up a grade. 

I certainly do now, hardly ever tow anymore, and if I do its my fishing boats that may gross 3k. So my spray was out of the bowl and on to top of the piston. Does that mean more advanced on timing?

12 minutes ago, dripley said:

The oily rockers are mine. The bridges, mine on the left as in each pair. These are out of a 6.7 with the updated rocker shaft, added oil groove. 

They seem to be same size, did you get them new, from whom?

[AH64ID]

3 minutes ago, Dieselfuture said:

I certainly do now, hardly ever tow anymore, and if I do its my fishing boats that may gross 3k. So my spray was out of the bowl and on to top of the piston. Does that mean more advanced on timing?

 

That's just the flame pattern from the fuel burning during the beginning of the power stroke. 

Different bowl design, but this is the spray pattern on my stock 05 pistons. Lots of towing, and almost all of it with advanced timing. 

[Dieselfuture]

I guess my pattern isn't much different aside from number of flames and the fuel bowl got bigger in the newer engine

[dripley]

4 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

They seem to be same size, did you get them new, from whom?

They are used. I got them off of ebay from Pametto injection out of SC. I got the rocker assemblies, bridges and the push rods for $256 to the door. I had to gamble and pulled the trigger pretty quick on them. I never could find anything or anyone who could confirm they would fit. I did however find a thread on CF with gent who said that 2018 rockers would fit and swears the new ones are pretty reasonable. Of course I found this out a couple days later. There is a touch of scuffing in these but I can see them but not feel them with finger or finger nail. So I think I am better off with these. 

 

I picked up the head today. Total bill $345. They said the valves were fine and all they to do was polish them. No cracks in the head and it held pressure fine. Looks beautiful. The wife just drove off in the Saturn with it in the trunk. Hope drives smart. Left her phone here so I cant reminder her its there.I am not going to think about that for now.

[01cummins4ever]

Good to see that your engine is still in good shape with the miles you have,  to good maintenance and good ol Dino oil, 

I hope mine is in good shape internally when the time comes, I’m sure it’s when and not if.  keep up the good work @dripley enjoying this thread.

[dripley]

Question time.

 

Does anyone know the bolt and thread size for the head bolts? I bought a 12 x 1.75 tap that fits the bolt and the bolt screwed into the sample bolt hole. I cleaned the first 10 bolt holes on the block with carb cleaner and the head screws all the way to the bottom. When I put the tap in I only can get a 1.5 to maybe 2 turn in them with fingers. Afraid to go any further with it until I know this is the right tap

 

The torque procedure in the FSM shows the bolt sequence and torque values. The 3rd step says to double check the 77 ft pounds done in step 2. The way I understand that is I need to break the bolts and re torque to the 77 ft pounds and then one more quarter turn. Do I need to remove that blot re lube and reinstall or just break loose a retorque?

Edited April 3, 2019 by JAG1

[Blueox01]

12 minutes ago, dripley said:

Question time.

 

Does anyone no the bolt and thread size for the head bolts? I bought a 12 x 1.75 tap that fits the bolt and the bot screwed into the sample bolt hole. I cleaned the first 10 bolt holes on the block with carb cleaner and the head screws all the weigh to the bottom. When I put the tap in I only can get a 1.5 to maybe 2 turn in them with fingers. Afraid to go any further with it until I know this is the right tap

 

The torque procedure in the FSM shows the bolt sequence and torque values. The 3rd step says to double check the 77 ft pounds done in step 2. The way I understand that is I need to break the bolts and re torque to the 77 ft pounds and then one more quarter turn. Do I need to remove that blot re lube and reinstall or just break loose a retorque?

I just checked the tap I used against head bolts 12mmx1.5

[dripley]

10 minutes ago, 01cummins4ever said:

Good to see that your engine is still in good shape with the miles you have,  to good maintenance and good ol Dino oil, 

I hope mine is in good shape internally when the time comes, I’m sure it’s when and not if.  keep up the good work @dripley enjoying this thread.

I am pretty happy about that myself. The only thing bad wear wise was the rocker assemblies. 

 

 

[Blueox01]

26 minutes ago, dripley said:

Question time.

 

Does anyone no the bolt and thread size for the head bolts? I bought a 12 x 1.75 tap that fits the bolt and the bot screwed into the sample bolt hole. I cleaned the first 10 bolt holes on the block with carb cleaner and the head screws all the weigh to the bottom. When I put the tap in I only can get a 1.5 to maybe 2 turn in them with fingers. Afraid to go any further with it until I know this is the right tap

 

The torque procedure in the FSM shows the bolt sequence and torque values. The 3rd step says to double check the 77 ft pounds done in step 2. The way I understand that is I need to break the bolts and re torque to the 77 ft pounds and then one more quarter turn. Do I need to remove that blot re lube and reinstall or just break loose a retorque?

How I understood the recheck, was just to make sure as gasket was crushed during step 2 (77 ft lbs) that all bolts still were at 77 ft lbs. no sense in backing off bolts to re-torque IMO.

[dripley]

12 minutes ago, Blueox01 said:

I just checked the tap I used against head bolts 12mmx1.5

That would explain why the bolt goes in but the tap does not. The tap I have when laid against the bolt fits like a glove. I will make another trip in the am and double check.

 

This bodes another question. 

If the bolts thread freely into the holes with my fingers is chasing really nevessary?

[Blueox01]

3 minutes ago, dripley said:

That would explain why the bolt goes in but the tap does not. The tap I have when laid against the bolt fits like a glove. I will make another trip in the am and double check.

 

This bodes another question. 

If the bolts thread freely into the holes with my fingers is chasing really nevessary?

If the threads are clean, the tap should also chase down the threads, right? I did it on my block because it sat for so long.

[dripley]

4 minutes ago, Blueox01 said:

How I understood the recheck, was just to make sure as gasket was crushed during step 2 (77 ft lbs) that all bolts still were at 77 ft lbs. no sense in backing off bolts to re-torque IMO.

The reason I asked was reading another thread here about rechecking torque on something. And it said to recheck the torque on something the bolt needed to be broken loose to get an accurate torque on the bolt. I could be mistaken though.

 

2 minutes ago, Blueox01 said:

If the threads are clean, the tap should also chase down the threads, right? I did it on my block because it sat for so long.

Absolutely. Thats why I did not try and force it, just used my fingers. I rinsed the holes out with carb cleaner and got a good bit of debris like @Dieselfuture described seeing in his. Mine has also only been sitting for a few days and has not had time for the muck in there to dry out so I am thinking the carb cleaner should have cleared the threads pretty good. Like I say I can freely spin the bolt into the hole with 2 fingers and back out again with no binding at all. I am thinking if I can do that it should fine.

 

Any thoughts on that? 

[Mopar1973Man]

All my holes were filled with oil. I didn't bother to do much for clean up on that. Drop the studs in the holes and started to snug them up to the bottom with an Allen wrench. 

[AH64ID]

22 minutes ago, dripley said:

The reason I asked was reading another thread here about rechecking torque on something. And it said to recheck the torque on something the bolt needed to be broken loose to get an accurate torque on the bolt. I could be mistaken though.

 

If something is torqued to 77 lb/ft it will take more than 77 lb/ft to get it moving again, so yes you want to break torque and then retorque. You always want the tq wrench to click while you are moving it, not while it's starting. If you reset the ratchet and it instantly clicks you need to back the bolt/nut off and try again. 

 

On a new head gasket it wont hurt to hit 77 lb/ft, break them loose one by one and reset to 77 lb/ft, then do the 1/4 turn... or whatever it calls for. 

 

Doesn't the FSM have you torque all of them to a lower value, then back off, then torque to 77 lb/ft?

[Blueox01]

Just now, AH64ID said:

 

If something is torqued to 77 lb/ft it will take more than 77 lb/ft to get it moving again, so yes you want to break torque and then retorque. You always want the tq wrench to click while you are moving it, not while it's starting. If you reset the ratchet and it instantly clicks you need to back the bolt/nut off and try again. 

 

1 minute ago, AH64ID said:

 

If something is torqued to 77 lb/ft it will take more than 77 lb/ft to get it moving again, so yes you want to break torque and then retorque. You always want the tq wrench to click while you are moving it, not while it's starting. If you reset the ratchet and it instantly clicks you need to back the bolt/nut off and try again. 

That's not how I read it, you're re checking torque, not re-torquing. The gasket compresses as you torque from the center out, you're just making sure every bolt IS at 77 ft lbs prior to step 4 turning each bolt 90*.  Why would you release torque AFTER you've compressed the gasket?

[AH64ID]

23 minutes ago, Blueox01 said:

 

That's not how I read it, you're re checking torque, not re-torquing. The gasket compresses as you torque from the center out, you're just making sure every bolt IS at 77 ft lbs prior to step 4 turning each bolt 90*.  Why would you release torque AFTER you've compressed the gasket?

 

Depends on the task you’re doing. Tq check is different that re-tq. 

 

Everything I have ever done with HG's is a re-torque, and not a tq check.. but that has been with studs and not bolts. That's likely the difference.

 

The OE manual for my 05 is this... 

 

a. Torque bolts to 70 N·m (52 ft. lbs.)
b. Back off 360 degrees in sequence
c. Torque bolts to 105 N·m (77 ft. lbs.)
d. Re-check all bolts to 105 N·m (77 ft. lbs.)
e. Tighten all bolts an additional 1⁄4 turn (90°)

 

If that's the same as a 2nd gen, then yes a torque check is fine. 

 

 

But the FSM steps do have you release torque, this ensures you get a full 77 lb/ft not a partial one. 

 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by AH64ID

[dripley]

11 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

 

If something is torqued to 77 lb/ft it will take more than 77 lb/ft to get it moving again, so yes you want to break torque and then retorque. You always want the tq wrench to click while you are moving it, not while it's starting. If you reset the ratchet and it instantly clicks you need to back the bolt/nut off and try again. 

 

On a new head gasket it wont hurt to hit 77 lb/ft, break them loose one by one and reset to 77 lb/ft, then do the 1/4 turn... or whatever it calls for. 

 

Doesn't the FSM have you torque all of them to a lower value, then back off, then torque to 77 lb/ft?

IIRC you go to the first value then the second value, which is 77 lb/ft then recheck the 77 and turn 90*. I do not remember a recheck of the first value.

 

8 minutes ago, Blueox01 said:

 

That's not how I read it, you're re checking torque, not re-torquing. The gasket compresses as you torque from the center out, you're just making sure every bolt IS at 77 ft lbs prior to step 4 turning each bolt 90*.  Why would you release torque AFTER you've compressed the gasket?

Hmmm.. Maybe just to make you sure you did the second step right, I dont know. But step 3 is to recheck the torque, hence breaking it loose. This is my understanding and I am not speaking from experience by any means, hence all the questions.

 

Now for the both of you. What if any opinions due you 2 have on the 6.7 rocker assemblies?

[AH64ID]

2 minutes ago, dripley said:

Now for the both of you. What if any opinions due you 2 have on the 6.7 rocker assemblies?

 

They look good, and should be improved over the 2nd gen design... as long as the push-rods fit them.