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W-T

Factory lift pump & After market lift pumps Caution !

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Welcome back. I hope things are better for you now out that way. Though what I read sounds like it will be a while before anything is even close to normal. 

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So nice to have you back W-T. Always an interesting read....:thumb1: 

Thank You.

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@dripley thank you Sir, yes, this situation is very long term...the clean up is commencing between rain however; it will be years before this area is even close to being normal again. I'm also limited with internet...I'm using my iPhone HotSpot to be able to participate here.

Cheers

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I found the iron ring that came out of an old computer charging system. Could I use that as a simpler way to reduce AC noise from the lift pump? I think you told me that one could wrap the iron ring with quality wire (sort of like a winding), grounding it to the frame and run the lift pump harness through it. Also ground the lift pump housing. Would this be a alternative, not as good of course, but perhaps somewhat effective?

      Thank you in advance.

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Thank you for article. 

 My airdog lift pump is mounted closest to fuel tank as possible.  Pump is mounted next to where the pick up bed meets truck cab.  Reason is was told these pump designs “push” fuel better than “suck” fuel.  But unknown if that is a proven fact or not.  

At the resent time, my wire relay connection is mounted on the firewall.  I could shorten the wire run approx. 8 1/2 feet by extending the relay connection closer to the lift pump. The new wire run from the DC pump to the "shunt capacitor"  would then be a length of 1 foot to 18 inches,  as opposed to 8 1/2 feet, and not exposed to weather best I can see. Of course it would not be as easy to check fuse, but would be a lot closed to pump motor.  

If I were to extend the relay connection and fuse, the relay connection would be at lot closer to lift pump,  would there be any real benefit?  

Thank you for your insight 

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4 hours ago, JAG1 said:

I found the iron ring that came out of an old computer charging system. Could I use that as a simpler way to reduce AC noise from the lift pump? I think you told me that one could wrap the iron ring with quality wire (sort of like a winding), grounding it to the frame and run the lift pump harness through it. Also ground the lift pump housing. Would this be a alternative, not as good of course, but perhaps somewhat effective?

      Thank you in advance.

 

Mike @JAG1 excellent incite...the use of a toroid core with multiple winding's to build maximum lumped inductance is an additional way of blocking undesired or extraneous signal on a DC supply line. Many computer monitor manufacturers will have an "egg" on the multi-conductor cable running to the computer mainframe. Much of the high speed switching data on the line can and certainly does radiate undesired digital-hash. Just as an analog DC motor does in run-mode.

 

Here is an example of a home-brew AC line filter constructed around a  2 1/2" toriod core. The properties of the core's "mix" elements (iron,nickle,cadmium) vary and is chosen for the frequencies or band of frequencies targeted for suppression.  

index.jpg.78e598052760fbdbe220a228dfdaf343.jpg  The amount of "windings" present in this example (core value unknown) generally indicates higher frequencies are to be attenuated and the amount of inductance is nominal but, not enough for our needs in suppressing the trash of aftermarket Lift Pumps drawing 5 to 8 Amps of current. Some of the larger aftermarket Lift Pumps may sink as much as 10+ Amps of current and now we're talking about some real power factors.

 

images.jpg.faafb7afb6137bfdc19dd00a675a7dc6.jpgHere we have an improved choke wound with #10 enameled solid copper that would be capable of conducting larger current demands with very little loss because the wire size has less resistance. This is important to us because we want the maximum voltage to be supplied to the DC motor and not dissipated in the form of heat due to the series resistance of the line or wire making up the choke itself.

 

124713100_images2.jpg.50f2e692c417c58ab45e17cf6fd14e2c.jpgHere we have a bulk choke constructed on a larger toroid doughnut with tightly packed turns and NO overlapping. This is approaching "real" levels of inductance to virtually "choke" the heck out of the chicken..... @dripleyis not included here.:lmao2:

 

The goal of a bulk DC choke is to build it as large and  with as many turns as possible to increase Inductance. The larger the inductance the better it is for low to mid range frequencies of suppression interest. 

 

This home-brew choke needs to be packaged to prevent damage and water/snow contamination.

 

This home-brew choke must be located directly at the "noise source" (LP motor input leads) and secured for physical integrity.

 

The use of "Fair-Rite" beads placed onto the DC leads will be of little assistance in our goal of high current DC choking.

 

In a "two wire" run from the power source (plus and minus) you would build chokes for both lines.

 

Yes again @JAG1 Mike...extreme attention to the way a LP mount structure is physically attached to the frame is critical ! The flat surfaces mating together should have NO paint insulating the two flat structures. Put "NoLox" grease between the two surfaces and tighten the mounting bolts to "squish" the grease and protrude outward so as to not allow moisture to collect between the two mating surfaces. Never expect a "bolt" or "screw" to act as a proper ground when you're trying to suppress RF hash. The larger the surfaces are in mating together will provide the best integrity of noise suppression. The noise "is" RF...it does NOT FLOW within a conducting element (wire) it FLOWS on the SURFACE of the conducting element (wire)... it is called SKIN EFFECT... the paint/powder-coating must be removed on ANY MATING SURFACES of a "noise generating" device (DC motor).

 

All the aftermarket Lift Pumps are packaged beautifully. NONE of them have CONTINUITY between their own body elements. During the initial by-passing procedure earlier in this thread I NEGLECTED to highlight a VERY IMPORTANT issue ! @JAG1 has brought this to the forefront. I apologize for this oversight...

 

You must disassemble the entire aftermarket LP unit and clean all mating surfaces to remove ALL ANODIZING and PAINT at EVERY contacting/mating point. NO continuity means NO suppression. I am so very sorry for having left this out of the initial documentation. Please note: the Original Carter LP HAS NO PAINT IN THE ENTIRE CONSTRUCTION of THE DEVICE. 

 

I used a Dremel Tool with small bits to "scarify" every hole where an assembly screw/bolt passes through to join another piece of the modular body construction. The beautiful "Anodized" surfaces of the fluid pump body as it mates to the lower fully "Anodized" water separator and fuel filter housing is FULLY NON-CONDUCTIVE !

 

I'm so very embarrassed to have NOT provided this imperative aspect. Sorry for my major error...there is no way around this...you must completely disassemble the LP platforms to restore full body continuity and then because of the full disassembly procedure, it lends well, to perform the "by-passing" procedure at the motor armature end-cap assembly. :duh:

 

I am just mortified by this omission !

 

@JAG1 Mike...I am sorry... it was my original observation so long ago that drove me into this comprehensive refurbishment of this $700 pain in the A... if I could regain my composure with just a bit of saving grace on my behalf...NOTHING WORTH WHILE IS EASY...this aspect is ONE OF THEM.

 

Indeed, our conversation has come to light in my cluttered mind and I now fully recall my primary reason for this entire thread. MY pump was a pile of junk electronically the day it arrived at my home. It was so bad, I called the manufacturer and spoke directly with the owner of the company. He was a very kind and gracious man. Our conversation continued for 3 hours that day. He openly informed me that his pursuit was into the US Military diesel vehicle contract part procurement program. When the subject matter was fully understood and how the fix would be incorporated into the package the task became daunting. The exchange was professional and enlightening for this gentleman . The aspect of having this product pass the "specification" hurdle for demanding US military standards for electronic compatibility... he then admitted to me that this concept had not been considered.

The next day I was offered employment on the Engineering staff of the company...I was honored however: I did not wish to relocate.

 

Again...I am sorry for dragging all my fellow CTD enthusiasts through the mud...credit goes to @JAG1 for surreptitiously stirring the pot of a failing biological hard drive. :doh: ...in the future I will have my notes compiled prior to annoying everyone. :rolleyes:

 

With humility

W-T

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, 015point9 said:

Thank you for article. 

 

 My airdog lift pump is mounted closest to fuel tank as possible.  Pump is mounted next to where the pick up bed meets truck cab.  Reason is was told these pump designs “push” fuel better than “suck” fuel.  But unknown if that is a proven fact or not.  

At the resent time, my wire relay connection is mounted on the firewall.  I could shorten the wire run approx. 8 1/2 feet by extending the relay connection closer to the lift pump. The new wire run from the DC pump to the "shunt capacitor"  would then be a length of 1 foot to 18 inches,  as opposed to 8 1/2 feet, and not exposed to weather best I can see. Of course it would not be as easy to check fuse, but would be a lot closed to pump motor.  

If I were to extend the relay connection and fuse, the relay connection would be at lot closer to lift pump,  would there be any real benefit?  

Thank you for your insight 

@015point9 ...

 

Your set up mirrors mine almost exactly and you wouldn't benefit in redesigning the present DC supply for the LP. Having the slave DC relay on the firewall is the most favorable location because it's a quasi protected environment and also some convenient serviceability advantages. I like being able to power the relay without the ECU connection to power purge a new filter install and burp all the air from the system. The firewall location allows that rare function when needed with only a couple of jumper-leads equipped with small alligator clips...extracting 12 DC to trigger the slave relay from the PDC is right there in the work area and you can hard run the LP without starting the engine.

 

The shunt cap at the slave relay socket was placed to remove the last bit of RF trash emanating up the DC line from the LP. Observing this on the panoramic spectrum analyzer was a final step I took after fixing the continuity of the entire LP's package and by-passing the armature. Yes, a lot of work to accomplish when the little Carter pump's design required no electrical correction to begin with.

 

Your estimation of DC cable length is very accurate and interesting.

 

The length of 8 and one half feet is notable in this subject. Using a RF constant formula of 468/F in MHz lets look at this

 

468/27.085 MHz (channel 11 citizens band) equals 17.27 feet as a resonant 1/2 wave antenna for 11 meters. Now, divide that in half and we get 8.6 feet or a perfect 1/4 wave resonant length of wire at that frequency. The 1/4 wave directly attached to the wide-band noise generator (aftermarket LP) is now spewing RF trash with a "tuned 1/4 wave" antenna with surprising efficiency.

 

The wide-band trash from these aftermarket LP's extends from just below the commercial Broadcast Band all the way into the UHF spectrum of 500 MHz plus...it is interesting to note that when one unknowingly attaches a convenient length of wire to power up and operate a DC motor of this type, you may very well be enhancing the dirty aspects of these LP's to be even more harmful due to their poorly designed package. So, if you wish... you could use your CB transceiver as a poor man's spectrum analyzer(sniffer) with just a short piece of coax connected to the rig...strip off the other end with a two inch pig-tail and with a length of say 12 feet you could walk around your truck as it is running, turn up your volume and "sniff" around. You can find and hear lot's of things....the problem is "if the aftermarket LP" is already trashing your receiver than you must correct the big trash first. If your CB is quiet and receiving correctly, you start your truck and the noise becomes unbelievable....that same broadband trash is effectively permeating all the electronics in your vehicle.

 

How bad is this? well...if you know it's there... could there be an issue in an emergency such as a faulty operating ABS system, speed sensing system, TC Lock/Unlock, cruise control, ect, ect. Fact is...it wasn't there when the truck arrived new. Introducing an electronic implement into the vehicle changed something. If your CB can't hear when your driving...something is wrong.

 

@JAG1 is onto something to even further quiet these aftermarket LP's...a quality designed high current bulk DC choke mounted directly at the DC input of the offending device is another way of making our CTD's even harder. I must caution all who venture down this path...be comprehensive...no single procedure will correct everything. The largest improvement will be to correct the non-continuity of the entire platform...it doesn't conduct between the individual modular body parts and with extraneous capacitive coupling between elements makes it even worse. Yeah...they look pretty but, these are the trashiest DC motor assemblies I have ever seen for automotive application.

 

Cheers,

W-T 

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3 hours ago, W-T said:

.. @dripleyis not included here.:lmao2:

I would have to read some more to see if me and the heard have been personally insulted or not.:think: I will have my machine call you rmachine at a later date.:tongue:

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Wondering if this has anything to do with quadzilla Bluetooth connection as its in the same general area where most have their lift pump wireing and relay. 

I'm also wondering if my intermittent abs/brake light has anything to do with it, even though I put brand new Timpken wheel bearings with sensors in, and when scanned with Snap-on it's the left driver side sensor that drops out, possible RF interference? 

This is very interesting, thank you for the write-up. I'll be moving a few things around to see if anything changes.

 

You'll be a good salesman for a fuel boss all mechanical pump, or any good quality mechanical lift pump for that matter :whistle2:

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Thanks for mentioning me giving me much credit W-T, but all I did was ask something about a 'donut dealy bob' that you originally educated me on about a year ago. After that, I began looking for that iron ring to show up somewhere in my shop anytime I was out there. Now that I found it.......is indeed the right size to help choke off that damn loud squawking chicken.

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2 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

Wondering if this has anything to do with quadzilla Bluetooth connection as its in the same general area where most have their lift pump wireing and relay. 

I'm also wondering if my intermittent abs/brake light has anything to do with it, even though I put brand new Timpken wheel bearings with sensors in, and when scanned with Snap-on it's the left driver side sensor that drops out, possible RF interference? 

This is very interesting, thank you for the write-up. I'll be moving a few things around to see if anything changes.

 

You'll be a good salesman for a fuel boss all mechanical pump, or any good quality mechanical lift pump for that matter :whistle2:

@Dieselfuture...I believe your effort in looking at this subject matter will reveal positive results. I would never create projects just to make "busy work" for my fellow CTD enthusiasts. 

 

Again, the factory LP was a fine "electrically sound" unit...however; volumetric efficiency and original mounting location with fittings (banjo type) was a poor decision on Daimler Chrysler's behalf.

 

Also...I wish to remain "neutral" in respect to the many companies who produce quality aftermarket electro-mechanical transfer-pumps. The performance aspect of these aftermarket pumps is not being questioned...I'm scrutinizing the lack of built in electronic silencing I expected after shelling out hundreds of dollars to correct one issue and inheriting another problem or side effect.

 

I admit the procedure to clean-up or shall I coin "electronically  blue-print" an analog DC motor is a bit involved but, the results are impressive in silencing the wide-band RF trash.

 

The ONLY DC motor in almost every automobile that is NOT fully silenced to the "point of perfection" is the windshield wiper motor. The fact that the operation is intermittent and used on occasions when required  deems this as less important but, an analog DC motor that runs continuously should not be allowed to emit "wide-band" RF hash to the detriment of the surrounding electrical environment.  

 

I would hope that eventually, the aftermarket manufacturers would correct this issue and clean-up their expensive alternative products. At a production level this is quite easy and affordable to accomplish.

 

I would be interested in your observations and results as you move forward in this matter.  

 

W-T   

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I have nothing of value to add but wanted to say that was one hell of a good write up.  My old roommate from college was an EE major and always talked about this stuff.  Way over my head, I just build roads but if anybody wants to talk about super elevations I'm your guy... :thumb1:

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15 minutes ago, Rotax3006 said:

I have nothing of value to add but wanted to say that was one hell of a good write up.  My old roommate from college was an EE major and always talked about this stuff.  Way over my head, I just build roads but if anybody wants to talk about super elevations I'm your guy... :thumb1:

I concur.  Super elevations are easier to understand for me also.

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44 minutes ago, W-T said:

@Rotax3006Thank you Sir, I am a fellow Montanan, originally from Butte, and I share this kind of information for the CTD enthusiasts who diligently search for answers. I receive personal satisfaction knowing I've been able to assist others in matters of electronic issues. This web site has some excellent individuals contributing solid information and I consider it an honor to participate.

 

Cheers :cool:     

We honored to have you. Many thanks.

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1 hour ago, W-T said:

@Rotax3006Thank you Sir, I am a fellow Montanan, originally from Butte, and I share this kind of information for the CTD enthusiasts who diligently search for answers. I receive personal satisfaction knowing I've been able to assist others in matters of electronic issues. This web site has some excellent individuals contributing solid information and I consider it an honor to participate.

 

Cheers :cool:     

 

46 minutes ago, dripley said:

We honored to have you. Many thanks.

 

:iagree::thanks:

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17 hours ago, dripley said:

We honored to have you. Many thanks.

X2 :thumb1:

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being in ham radio this is all fact, the "ripples" are called harmonics and any open electrical spar/arc can, does, and will create unwanted RF and the harmonics can go up and down the radio spectrum for ages.... that unwanted rf can be inducted into other resonant circuits and cause problems.

 

its why i have a mechanical lift pump :lol2:

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16 hours ago, CUMMINSDIESELPWR said:

being in ham radio this is all fact, the "ripples" are called harmonics 

 

 

Specifically "harmonics" are ODD and EVEN multiples of a fundamental frequency of interest. An example would be 27 MHz x 2= 54 MHz or simply the second harmonic of the fundamental. In a practice most EVEN order harmonics are self cancelling in a tuned circuit...the ODD harmonic multiples are removed by the filtering design of the coupled circuit or following tuned circuit. The Q factor will determine the depth of acceptance or REJECT of the unwanted extraneous RF energy in it's inherent design.

 

This thread is specifically referring to the WIDE BAND white noise or HASH being produced by the DC motor armature in a normal run-mode operation. This observation is only pointing out the "non-bypassed" production of common DC motors being utilized to power these gear-driven transfer pumps. 

 

Earlier in the thread I made reference to the "wild uncontrolled SPARK-GAP transmitter" which is the result of any analog brushed DC motor's armature in spinning motion. With little attention or engineering being applied to filter or suppress the results of "wide band hash" across the entire frequency spectrum we can expect to possibly have issues elsewhere in a closed 12 volt automotive electrical system. Again the shining example of correct DC suppression is the Carter Pump that all of us have decided to eliminate from our platforms due to the poor performance characteristics of fluid handling capabilities. 

 

The aspect of "ripple" is customarily a term applied to an extraneous AC waveform being imposed upon a DC rail or a pure DC 12 volt power supply having filter or rectification issues. This is observed in several threads where @Mopar1973Man has enlightened all of us to the health of the 135 Amp Alternators and their demise in clean operation.

 

I appreciate your observation and your choice of a mechanical transfer pump in order to avoid some of the pitfalls we all face when choosing an aftermarket electro-mechanical transfer pump. Perhaps the attention to this unfortunate over site on behalf of the leading manufacturers may lead to an improvement in the near future.

 

With respect,

W-T

First Class Radio Telephone

Radar endorsement 

Extra Class Certificate de: WA6Q

45 WPM certified

    

 

    

 

 

 

   

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