Another VP dying?

[beren]

This week I've had a few times where I'm doing around 65mph on the highway and I hit the pedal to accelerate, and nothing happens. The engine sound might change a tiny bit but I can't accelerate at all. if I mash or get off the pedal and back on it doesn't let me go any faster. Quadzilla doesn't show anything strange, except that my throttle position changes with the pedal push. If I downshift for a sec and then go back into 6th everything is fine. Today I pulled the codes for the first time and got P0216. I'll have to check and see if it comes back. There was one odd thing 2 weeks ago when I changed the fuel filter, the next day it took about 6s to start vs the near instant it usually is. I put 2-cycle oil in the fuel for the first time in a year or so as well, just before it started acting up. I really hope the VP isn't dying, as it's only got 56k miles on it. I bought it Aug 2012 and don't drive it a ton until recently. It was BlueChip's Premium Upgraded HO pump. Fuel pressure has been 10-14psi.

[Mopar1973Man]

42 minutes ago, beren said:

Fuel pressure has been 10-14psi.

Too low of fuel pressure. Should of been 14 to 20 PSI to keep the overflow valve open. At 10 to 14 PSI the overflow valve isn't open enough to keep it cooled and lubricated. This is a reason why VP44 has such poor live spans in the beginning the lift pump barely could hold this in stock form.

 

43 minutes ago, beren said:

It was BlueChip's Premium Upgraded HO pump.

Just remember Blue Chip does not have a Bosch 815 test stand to calibrate VP44. All his injection pump have to be shipped out. Another member informed me of this while back. Then how are you sure you PSG flashed? or was the PSG reused? (Blue Chip option).

 

Here is the list I've compiled from the help of the members. Kind of hard to rebuild VP44 without a Bosch 815 test stand.

 

44 minutes ago, beren said:

Today I pulled the codes for the first time and got P0216.

Most likely the timing piston is galling up and jamming up. Also could be low fuel pressure and not enough to move it when commanded.

[beren]

The original VP44 lasted 233k miles with the stock and then a DELPHI HFP923 fuel pump, and no fuel pressure gauge. I put the gauge on it and replaced the VP after it seized up after running dry on fuel. Damn sending unit stuck at 3/8 and I only noticed 1mi before running dry that I was at 636mi on the tank. I bought the pump with a brand new computer not a used one.

 

Did dodge ever increase the fuel pressure to the VP with any of it's repairs/upgrades? I'm not saying low pressure didn't cause it but 233k on a bone stock system is not unacceptable. I've been running WIX/Napa Gold fuel filters.

 

Is there anything else to test/do/fix or just wait for it to get worse? It just seemed strange that changing gears made it work again if it's a mechanical issue.

[JAG1]

I drove mine 4 yrs with 0216 code using two stroke every tank, but its a gamble.

 

You need good F/P with easy flow 1/2 inch lines, no banjo bolts so the lift pump stays cooler and the return fuel can empty remove the heat in the VP. Bigger lines insure keeping the return flow at maximum cooling when accelerating and the VP wants to get hot.

Edited June 7, 2019 by JAG1

[beren]

Yeah I'll see if it changes, I'm not currently driving more than 50mi from home, but I guess I'll change it asap if I get some side work hauling trailers. Sucks I just spent $1k on tires, harmonic balancer, and a few odds& ends and still need to do an oil change. @dieselautopower is gonna be on my speed dial :-) 

I don't have $600 to spend on a fuel pump, I want to do the frame relocate so what would be a good alternative to stock? I'm not pushing serious power I just have slightly larger injectors.

Edited June 7, 2019 by beren

[Mopar1973Man]

31 minutes ago, beren said:

Did dodge ever increase the fuel pressure to the VP with any of it's repairs/upgrades?

No. Actually they reduced the fuel pressure with the intank pump and claimed it had better volume. Truthfully it didn't have the pressure or the volume at all. The only 2 electric pumps that can keep up is the AirDog and FASS. Mechanical pump options are out there too but look at the kit with a electric priming pump. 

 

34 minutes ago, beren said:

I've been running WIX/Napa Gold fuel filters.

I know that @AH64ID would say those are below par for filter media. Donaldson or Fleetguard 3 micron filters. I think there is a few others that make the 3 micron list.

 

35 minutes ago, beren said:

Damn sending unit stuck at 3/8 and I only noticed 1mi before running dry that I was at 636mi on the tank.

Running out of fuel or low in fuel pressure on VP44 is just like running out of oil in the engine or running low oil pressure. 

 

[beren]

23 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

No. Actually they reduced the fuel pressure with the intank pump and claimed it had better volume. Truthfully it didn't have the pressure or the volume at all. The only 2 electric pumps that can keep up is the AirDog and FASS. Mechanical pump options are out there too but look at the kit with a electric priming pump. 

 

I know that @AH64ID would say those are below par for filter media. Donaldson or Fleetguard 3 micron filters. I think there is a few others that make the 3 micron list.

 

Running out of fuel or low in fuel pressure on VP44 is just like running out of oil in the engine or running low oil pressure. 

 

Yeah that’s what killed the first pump at 233k miles. 

 

I agree a steady supply of fuel is needed for the pump but there’s too many pumps that last a long time without an air dog or FASS to say that they are the only two that can supply the engine with enough fuel. 3 micron filters can’t be used with stock filters from what I read, too much restriction. Spending $600-800 or more to protect a $900 part doesn’t make sense unless you can guarantee that $900 part will last twice as long, or longer.

 

Are there any less expensive alternatives that you guys would recommend?

 

The pressure relief valve seems to function pretty much the same as the wastegate on the turbo. It’s so you don’t blow the thing up. Sure can provide a little bit more cooling but sodas the fuel that goes into the engine

Edited June 7, 2019 by beren

[Mopar1973Man]

4 minutes ago, beren said:

I agree a steady supply of fuel is needed for the pump but there’s too many pumps that last a long time without an air dog or FASS to say that they are the only two that can supply the engine with enough fuel. 3 micron filters can’t be used with stock filters from what I read, too much restriction. Spending $600-800 or more to protect a $900 part doesn’t make sense unless you can guarantee that $900 part will last twice as long, or longer.

243k miles on my last VP44. Then 250k miles out of my AirDog pump. Peace of mind PRICELESS...

 

5 minutes ago, beren said:

The pressure relief valve seems to function pretty much the same as the wastegate on the turbo.

It only truly open above 14 PSI. Once it hits 10 PSI is completely closed. To keep it lubed and cooled properly you need to keep the overflow valve open. The return port is small so you can blow the front seal out of the VP44 by going above 20 PSI. I know some will claim they been to 30 PSI with no problem but its a gamble. Pull the overflow valve out and look at the port is small!

 

12 minutes ago, beren said:

Are there any less expensive alternatives that you guys would recommend?

I don't know of any other pumps that can pump 100 GPH or 150 GPH or better. Just remember stock was 60 GPH roughly. 

[beren]

Didn’t I read someone on this for him recently calculated that the engine only needs a maximum of like 28 gallons per minute? And everything else gets recycled back to the tank?

 

My main issue with spending $600 I don’t have on another fuel pump is that it’s not peace of mind it’s clinging to hope because the pump can still fail at any point in time.  There’s no guarantee that it will extend the life of the injection pump at all. Like I said my and lasted for 233,000 miles with no fuel additives or special pumps. Unfortunately this one did not. 

 

Another thing that exists and cooling systems is that the liquid can actually float too fast to effectively absorb much heat and cool an item. I doubt any of the aftermarket pump manufactures researched this because they want to sell you a pump above all else just like K&N wants to sell you an air filter. 

 

I know I’m playing devils advocate I just can’t afford to waste money on something that won’t make a difference.

[Mopar1973Man]

 

2 minutes ago, beren said:

it’s clinging to hope because the pump can still fail at any point in time.

Even the cheap stock pump can too.

 

6 minutes ago, beren said:

Didn’t I read someone on this for him recently calculated that the engine only needs a maximum of like 28 gallons per minute?

Still in all you needing more volume and constant pressure. You need to keep a high return volume for the cooling and lubrication process. Like I'm burning roughly 2.5 to 2.8 GPH through the injectors even with 150 HP injectors and Quadzilla tuner. WOT I can pass 25 GPH burnt easy. Still you need 70% of the total volume returned to the tank to meet Bosch standards (Not Dodge or Cummins but Bosch).

 

 

[beren]

Yeah the 70% mark for a 60gph pump is 18gph. I'm like you, I try to get the best fuel econ I can, which seems to be 20-21mpg on the highway and 17.5 average combined (I have larger tires) and with my truck I rarely drive faster than 65mph. The truck did the no-accel on the way to get my kids from daycare. I did the key check and it was 1693 & 216 codes :-/

[dripley]

My OE pump lasted 75k on a stock truck running just like yours, no fuel pressure gauge and pre LSD and ULSD. My lift pump failed at 150k and I ended up with an in tank pump. About 25k miles later I started having dead pedal and bucking issues and that when I found that pump to have about 5 psi at idle and near 0 psi at WOT. I installed a booster pump on the frame rail and the issues went away. Still no fuel pressure gauge and stock lines.At 217k the truck had a major malfunction and I replaced the pump due to its history with low fuel pressure. Turned out to be the ECM but thats another story. I put on a Blue Chip just like you bought. It was about this time I started learning about fuel pressure and its importance. I also learned about using 2 stroke oil after joining this forum. So here I am with the BC pump and an Air Dog lift pump. My luck with them has not been as good as @Mopar1973Man. I have had 2 failures which AD has warranted and replaced still a hassle to mess with though. But the pump has 253k on it and is still going strong even after 2 lift pump failures. It has been fed good pressure and 2 stroke almost all its life and will continue to see that until it dies.

 

Maybe a booster pump help temporarily. It worked with the in tank but don know about the block mounted pump.

[Mopar1973Man]

7 minutes ago, beren said:

Yeah the 70% mark for a 60gph pump is 18gph

 

While keeping 14 PSI... Not going to happen with a 60 GPH pump. As for the math 70% of 60 GPH is 42 GPH that has to be returned again while keeping 14 to 20 PSI not going to happen. Again its like letting the oil pressure fall to low pressure while WOT. Does the same damage to the VP44 as it would the engine. 

 

P0216 code...

 

4 ways to kill a VP44...

1. Excessive AC noise 
2. Poor filtration (10 um isn't enough 3 um filters double stack is best)
3. Low fuel pressure (14 to 20 PSI to keep the overflow valve open)
4. Low Lubricity (<460 HFRR - US fuel is ~520 HFRR)  

[beren]

Well… I guess the credit card company is gonna love me this month. Looking at @dieselautopower's site, I see they have an airdog 100, FASS 95, & DTT Assassin. which should work well for me. I just for a fluidamper from them last month, not sure the DDT works with it and the stock fan (I've read different things). Anything better than another? Is it possible to keep the stock filter housing for the heater without too much loss/expense?

Hopefully they can find a good discount hiding under an old box for me ;-)

[015point9]

Lift pumps, make sure to send it warranty card. Then call about month later to make sure.  

[beren]

Someone here mentioned using a Detroit diesel mech pump as well. Wonder if anyone has done that? http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186558

I've also seen posts where people use a Holly Blue to push to the stock pump and set it at 18-20psi but I don't know what GPH it would have at those pressures...

Edited June 7, 2019 by beren

[kzimmer]

3 hours ago, beren said:

Are there any less expensive alternatives that you guys would recommend?

Yes! I run a Walbro 392 pump, 1/2 lines, and a Fass sump, through a Fass FPR and factory filter, with upgraded 1/2 lines also between filter and VP44. Fraction of the cost as compared to the overpriced overkill pump kits available. I can drag it down to 14psi or so, with dirty *** 7x.014 DSS injector nozzles at max fueling (no wiretap). Plenty of fuel. Even if it were to drag down to 10-12psi with wiretap, I'm not WOT all day. 20psi down the highway all day.

[beren]

I finally found a flow chart for the 392…  looks like 20psi is off the charts at running voltage :-)

interesting idea @kzimmer was it hard to put together? Did you use the big line kit or build your own?

[beren]

Maybe this was the thread I read before… anyway I'll def. look into replacing my filter→VP lines.

https://mopar1973man.com/topic/6224-what-size-big-line-kit-do-i-need/

[NIsaacs]

11 hours ago, kzimmer said:

Yes! I run a Walbro 392 pump,  Fraction of the cost as compared to the overpriced overkill pump kits available.  Plenty of fuel. Even if it were to drag down to 10-12psi with wiretap, I'm not WOT all day. 

 

I agree. These trucks will run fine and a long time without huge fuel pumps, lines and special filters. 330k miles on my '01 oem VP. Stock lift pumps for years, Napa filters, stock lines. 12 years on RV injectors and Edge EZ. Now 4 years on an Edge Juice with Raptor 100 gph lift pump. 

 

I just helped a fellow TDR member drop his fuel tank. His complaint was almost zero fuel pressure with all systems working as they should. This is what we found! We installed a new fuel module and are confident the truck is fixed.