New NV 4500 with South Bend DD, full package with 1-3/8th input. ( 4th gear vibration on deceleration) trouble

[Scottyv]

Ok Long story short, is still very long:

I had my NV4500 transmission go down a few weeks back, in Casper WY.  took is to Thomas Crawford auto repair. I had a very good experience . But now I've got issues.

History:

Took about  week to get one sent to the shop in Wy,  from Midwest transmission in zumbrota MN which isn't far from where I live.

The repair shop and I decided to upgrade to the 1 3/8th input shaft,plus all the other updates that Midwest Transmission and gear, does to these trans when rebuilding them.

For the clutch, I opted for the SBDD and new hydrolics. Hoped this would work better with my towing needs.

Finally , The installer put 4 qts of BG Ultra-Guard® Full Synthetic Gear Lubricant 75w-90 (sad that he charge me for 8 qts )

 

Developments:

From the start , the transmission/ clutch acted up.

The Hydraulics did not break the white tabs off the cap assembly and I noticed the tabs jutting back out when the clutch was released. The Tech said they stretched. so we removed the white cap and tabs, and inserted the hyds push rod in, and re-bolted it to the trans bell housing. Also, the truck shifted hard and notchy. and I was forced to coast . . .  through several intersections while hoping I could grab a gear before I was hit. Very frustrating. Other frustrating issues and lots of noise when clutch was  disengaged. (was told it was normal) Otherwise the clutch grabbed good, and did not slip on any pulls or steep hills coming home. But the intersection thing was happening to many times to be safe. 

 

Also a noticeable from the start, which i told the shop owner, And had him test drive with me. Was,.. THE HAND JIGGLING VIBRATIONS on the shifter when lightly resting my hand to check for gear roll-over vibrations while rolling.  But when deceleration or letting up on the throttle  in 4th around 35 mph down to 25 mph. there is vibration jiggling the shifter , this happens  most noticeably when downshifting with a load or on a downgrade (hill) 

I also get a slight tilting of the shifter forward and backward when accelerating slighting and decelerating . But only in third and fourth. which share the same Shift rial. All this is being done with gentle speeds and easy clutch releases. ((SHOP GUY SAID IT WAS a  "NORMAL SBDD CLUTCH BINDING GRABBING STUFF" cause of the middle pressure plate floating in there??)

 

1300 miles later the trans still shift notchy and sometimes will not go into 1st third , or reverse.  Not being unaware of the GL5 type fluids,  I looked into the BG Ultra-Guard® Full Synthetic Gear Lubricant  product the shop put in the trans.  and it was not a good choice because it is a GL5 . I then changed it to Amsoil MTG. A Gl4 and Midwest trans recommended fluid.  I filled it with 6 qts. ( yes 6 qts, and no, I don't agree about heat retention in the oil with six quarts. when top loading this trans I could barely see where six qts was coming up to the gears. However 5 qts is  commonly recommended. I may drop a quart if the temps look high. (Three and 3/4th quarts to the hole is not enough. and that is well establish as a failure point in these transmissions.

 

"Notchy shifting Update": today

In the shifty notchy progress,  two days later  125 miles, I did notice a bit better shifting but it will will argue 1st and reverse when stopped on a hill. Rolling is the only trick.

(not impressed) but better.

Note: the BG oil i removed, was fairly dark after 1300 miles and looked contaminated with graphite. but it was still transparent enough to look like dark honey when coming out of the drain hole.

Not a good sign.

Lastly when taking the shifter  cover off the shifter mount, on top the transmission, I noticed the graphite residue on the back side of the shifter plastic housing and the shifter main rod that goes into the trans to move the shift fork. (Seems like something is making deposits in the oil and on the metal, inside the Transmission.) 

The most concerning issue, to me was the Long crack looking "scratch" on the center 3rd and 4th gear shift rail. it looked cracked up past the housing. 

 

 

Time to call Tim at Midwest:

I called Tim, and update him on what i've found. and sent him pictures. When he responded today, he said it was a scratch according to the tech who assembled the transmission.( Kinda didn't like that the tech remembered he put in, a possibly sub standard part,  when rebuilding that transmission.)

Tim at midwest who has been apprised of the entire history of this project since its purchase. said to bring it in next week. (a 60 mile track ). But he said they will drop the transmission and take a look at things. 

 

Just to let you know this weekend I'm changing the carrier bearing, which shows no wear,  and the trans mount just to eliminate those two things from the possible cause of the vibration and giggling in the fourth gear. Also the vibration stops when disengaging the clutch, but comes right back when engaging it again. I haven't heard of others who have had this issue . But if you have a SBDD and any of this is normal let me know please

 

I'll let you know what else happens next week. It may take me longer with work , but Ill post what happens.

any insight is appreciated.

thanks Guys

Edited September 25, 2019 by Scottyv
opps spellings

[98whitelightnin]

I hate to hear this! I just got a SBDD3250 Organic installed and there is no vibration or sound but the clutch does not fully disengage with the clutch pedal depressed. Shop that did the install has put 3 sets of SB hydros on with no change. I did the tests on SB page and told them it was not an issue with the hydros but they wanted to try. They said they will be talking more with the guys at SB and if they have to put another clutch in, they will.

[Scottyv]

Yesh... That's not good.

 

I may have similar issues. I'm guessing the imbalance comes from a poorly build trans, a bearing or old gear was not within the tolerance. but if its the clutch i'll be because the disks just aren't flat and balanced enough for the spin and torque. I'm thinking that when the reverse torque of the deceleration starts its jiggling while the springs are under stress and grabbing and letting go, to let torque decrees against the center plate, may slip a little as designed, but then it should grab and hold. This is to do what they are meant to do when slipping. But if they are not slipping and then grabbing, you might feel a wobbly jiggly vibration as the clutch bounces across the center plate letting go over and over upon deceleration. That'll were things out fast and be come hard on the transmission bearing and gears. This may be because SB is working  on the street version while selling them to us. A clutch that slips and then grabs may be had to balance. when making it a street daily driving clutch. I'm becoming an educated novice but i wish it just worked as promised.

 

If the slippage makes it a "street version" then the  vibration happens when slipping is weakest in their design, with reverse torque. There may be something to this because their new clutch break-in-booklet says not to down shift with the DD. But that is just not gonna work. We drive these truck and use the downshifts to engine break a bit when slowing the truck down with the breaks. Also we have  steep grades with loads, we need to be helped by down shifting. if the engine can handle forward torque it can handle reverse torque. So , then should the clutch be able to "Handel it". Other clutches handle it just fine. My original one was still good and grabbed fine. After 148k miles. Just a LUK original equipment clutch. . SB may have not made this right yet. I'm hoping that they have. but if I find that they haven't, I post it every where so others and avoid this product. It's the 3250 5k SBDD street I have a 2500 clutch with install and it should work not only well but great. and is works poorly. Its noisy when depressed,it vibrates in deceleration's in fourth gear,  and it dose not let me in gear every time. 

46 minutes ago, 98whitelightnin said:

I hate to hear this! I just got a SBDD3250 Organic installed and there is no vibration or sound but the clutch does not fully disengage with the clutch pedal depressed. Shop that did the install has put 3 sets of SB hydros on with no change. I did the tests on SB page and told them it was not an issue with the hydros but they wanted to try. They said they will be talking more with the guys at SB and if they have to put another clutch in, they will.

Also, I watched a install video for perfection clutches, and the tech says if the through ut is sticky or bad, or if the fork is in the wrong it will  hang up and not fully engage the clutch. have you tried jacking it up and putting it in reverse with the clutch disengaged. if it rolls when the clutch is dis-engaging fully to the floor then there is a problem with the clutched toughing the center plate or back plate. this might mean it wasn't install correctly.  Once you under stand the simplicity of a clutch you can see how , if its not working then something was not done correctly. That's why SB can say if it worked from the beginning then its probably not the clutch. However they have a lot of things going together in the DD clutch. So I don't agree with that simple cover statement. Don't get me wrong I want it to work. and they seem like a great company. But it must work as promised. let me know what happens

[98whitelightnin]

There is definitely a problem with it disengaging and I don’t have to jack up the rear end to notice it. I haven’t had any slipping yet, clutch holds the power great. Sometimes right after changing gears during a hard acceleration, it seems like I can feel one of the disks contacting late. I believe it was an install error and they should have greased something they didn’t. I installed a valair dd 6 or 7 years ago it never had any issues with it, even with off the shelf parts store hydros. I never ever have anyone else work on my truck for this very reason but I just did not have it in me to pull this trans at this point in time.

[Scottyv]

1 hour ago, 98whitelightnin said:

. I installed a valair dd 6 or 7 years ago it never had any issues with it, even with off the shelf parts store hydros. I never ever have anyone else work on my truck for this very reason but I just did not have it in me to pull this trans at this point in time.

 

Yes, When the trans broke, the wife said "well that's good since now you'll have to have it fixed and you are so far from home it'll be nice not to have to do it your self".  . . .Now, I said,  you see why I don't.let other people work on my truck. 

 

Thing is it'll break mid-winter -20, and I'll be in the drive way under my truck, . .  blessing my truck. But , The wife will be in the house, nice and warm. 

I really don't want that. . .

[NIsaacs]

Some good info here on my thread at TDR, (Ford twin disk) It may or may not apply in your case. Take a good look at the pictures, they tell the story.

 

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/posts/2560735/

[Mopar1973Man]

3rd and 4th shift ring is right up next to the input shaft. You might want to verify the pilot bearing. Yeah I know this means you have to pull the transmission. Like I found out mine started with the pilot bearing falling out of the flywheel onto the input shaft. It was causing a notchy shift for fifth gear randomly. Might happen once in week or two then never happen again. Eventually the pilot bearing wore out the bearings for the input shaft causing more vibration. It forced me to replace the mainshaft because the bearing and the race on the mainshaft was damaged. 

 

 

As for my new Valair dual organic disc clutch shifts great, super soft hydros using STOCK hydros! The only problem I've got is launching in 2nd gear is a bit a chatter and hop at times, like a hot spot issue but I know better. 1st gear launches pretty good lightly felt. All gears shift butter smooth when rolling. Still running the Mobil 50 SAE trans fluid. Still got super cool transmission temperature numbers. Even with 90*F temps outside and 125 miles later maybe 150-160*F transmission temperatures at 65 MPH. 

13 hours ago, Scottyv said:

The Hydraulics did not break the white tabs off the cap assembly and I noticed the tabs jutting back out when the clutch was released. The Tech said they stretched.

 

Again pre-bled system always tend to need to be re-bled before installing. Then most over adjust the hydros and hyper-extend the throw-out bearing needlessly. As for the Valair I installed in the 2012 had upgraded hydro's and that is a PITA to adjust and set up. No GAINS at all using upgraded hydros. My dual Valair order WITHOUT upgraded hydros and was absolutely a snap and super soft pedal. Awesome setup. 

13 hours ago, Scottyv said:

All this is being done with gentle speeds and easy clutch releases. ((SHOP GUY SAID IT WAS a  "NORMAL SBDD CLUTCH BINDING GRABBING STUFF" cause of the middle pressure plate floating in there??)

 

This is true the center plate will float when your foot ins on the clutch pedal and make racket. With your foot off the pedal it should not move or rattle. That center disc can move because the pressure plate is clamping down on the that center plate. Not to mention the center plate is machined to a tight fit and really can move much. Launching yeah its grabby but after full engagement it should be butter smooth. Pressure plate is fully clamped down. The only thing I can suggest is back off the adjustment fully on the hydsros and make the rod as short as possible. 

 

13 hours ago, Scottyv said:

However 5 qts is  commonly recommended.

 

Don't it will cause the fluid to blow out the vent and make a huge mess. 4 quarts is more than enough been there done that. No gain in 5 quarts in NV4500.

 

Being I cover roughly 1,000 miles a week I've already got over 2k miles on the clutch already. 

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by Mopar1973Man

[cuda]

My SB DD street clutch has been as advertised, shifting is slower than the valair I took out but not by much, clutch is quiet except when my rpms are too low for the gear I am in then it growls a little. Even reverse with a heavy trailer works which was one thing I was worried about from internet posts. Mine is the new style with the little rubber gromets on the center plate to keep it quiet.

[98whitelightnin]

I was informed that the adjustable rod on SB's hydros is only for pedal placement, nothing at all to do with how far the slave moves the throwout bearing. They guys at Blumenthal recommend 5 qts in the nv4500, I ran 7 with fast coolers.

[Mopar1973Man]

1 minute ago, 98whitelightnin said:

I was informed that the adjustable rod on SB's hydros is only for pedal placement, nothing at all to do with how far the slave moves the throwout bearing.

Actually it will hyperextend the throwout bearing. I've just seen the document with Valair's setup that make sure not to over adjust because it will do damage. Mine engages at the top of the pedal throw which is fine. It was tech at SB (Peter? IIRC) that informed me of the hyper extending issues of the throwout bearing. 

 

2 minutes ago, 98whitelightnin said:

They guys at Blumenthal recommend 5 qts in the nv4500

Yeah back when AH64ID was saying my probe needed to stay submerged I added a full quart more over the standard 4 quarts to the bottom of the hole. It continued to slowly drool out the vent on the passenger side. Went back to 4 quarts dry as a bone. There was no gain in lubing or cooling with an added quart. I got tired of the mess the extra oil made. Hence why I moved the probe to the PTO plate and returned back to 4 quart load. 

 

5 hours ago, cuda said:

My SB DD street clutch has been as advertised, shifting is slower than the valair I took out but not by much

Interesting... Mine was slow to throw on 5th gear now its getting faster. The launching chatter is slowly going away. Bit of throw bearing noise with the pedal pressed but nothing bad. 

[98whitelightnin]

Does the input shaft bearing retainer need to be greased or maybe graphite lube?

[Mopar1973Man]

Not sure on that one... I'll have to pass that up.

[Scottyv]

1 hour ago, 98whitelightnin said:

Does the input shaft bearing retainer need to be greased or maybe graphite lube?

The throw-out  does, when installed, it usually comes pre-lubed, it has a grove in the race to keep the grease in there, but it best to grease it well. Doesn't seem to be my problem. well see though. Mopar1973man my be on to the cause . 

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 . . . . . . .     PTO plate and returned back to 4 quart load.  . . . . . 

 

Ok I'll have to check that tonight. Don't need a mess,

8 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

3rd and 4th shift ring is right up next to the input shaft. You might want to verify the pilot bearing. Yeah I know this means you have to pull the transmission. Like I found out mine started with the pilot bearing falling out of the flywheel onto the input shaft. It was causing a notchy shift for fifth gear randomly. Might happen once in week or two then never happen again. Eventually the pilot bearing wore out the bearings for the input shaft causing more vibration. It forced me to replace the main-shaft because the bearing and the race on the main-shaft was damaged. 

 

Humm That is interesting.

Did it stop when you Dis-engaged the clutch?  When I push the pedal down and dis-engage the clutch the vibrations stop.

This only happens during deceleration in  fourth gear and just from 40 mph down to 25 mph. I do not normally let fourth go so low but as a test this is what i have been able to find.

 

My fifth ,1, 2, are good in both acceleration and deceleration's. I can think I feel a very slight vibration in 3rd, but Its not like fourth. 

Edited September 25, 2019 by Scottyv

[98whitelightnin]

Torque king site says to put a light film of tacky grease on the bearing retainer. This is what I’m thinking my installer didn’t do and somehow it’s binding.

[Scottyv]

OK, Checked for venting of trans fluid from 6qt fill. no venting no mess and no drips. normal driving , no steep grades since fill so I will keep an eye on it will be towing this weekend. 

 

Also I'll be eliminating the carrier bearing and trans mount this weekend,

by replacing them i will be  trouble shooting before I have Midwest take out the trans and inspect it. However I think that will still happen. Its just not safe to get stuck in an intersection while gear searching, .

Original Carrie bearing is still in there and rubber looks good but, it doesn't mean the bearing is not dragging . There is a soft  mid-ranges howl at certain speeds and slow down.

Also I can get the drive train to jump just slightly when backing up hill with heavy load in truck , so checking the motor mount/ trans mount. Ill drop it out , and if its torn or week I'll swap it out too.

[Scottyv]

Ok, Not so new, good but still worth looking into.

Update:

Took the truck into Midwest transmission in Zumbrota Mn. This is where the trans was rebuilt. When I dropped it off on Monday tim handed me off to Bud in the shop, After a test drive Bud mentioned that they would probably take out the trans and look at things.  However, over the week Tim, Bud, and Scott all took turns?  driving it a bit and looking at it, not sure how well, but they decided to let it go for now. We did have them change out trans mount, and the center carrier support bearing and drive shaft balanced since that would mke it match their work skill, and not mine. (so that rule out the obvious.)

 

So, still no change, fourth gear shutters when in the deceleration comes on, between 40 mph down to 25 mph, driving it . Seems like Scott (the owner in part ), decided not to take out the trans for now. He feels it has more to do with the Clutch, but since he has high confidence in the SBDD 3250 and the fact that every thing was changed out down to the fly wheel and pilot bearing when put in in Wyoming. He feels it could be some chatter from the clutch on the input shaft, because while its shuttering in fourth it stops once the clutch pedal is pressed down. Meaning no shutter when the clutch is disengaged. 

 

Obviously,  I was hoping , they would have dropped the trans and taken a look but (they didn't want to put the 7 hours in to it,) as the problem  seems to be the South bend or installers problem, and they didn't install the trans or clutch. they are just the re-builder. I do understand that. Still, it would have been a nice thing to do. But what can i say. I have a business and I do that sort of thing for my customers, but I guess I need to to keep them. 

 

Scott said , Im gonna have to wait until its get better or worse. But since it did this from the start its tough to get some one here to take a look at whats going on inside the bell housing. " Moparman's"  post on the pilot bearing falling out on to the input shaft seems likely, But Midwest did not want to check that out, hinting that that would be the installing shops responsibility and South bends product portion of the job.. Midwest also owns a drive line shop in Maple Grove Mn that did the drive shaft work for me.

My concern is that eventually problem will take out the input shafts bearing, and ruin the transmission.but  I'm kinda stuck.

 

So as is goes for now i'll be watching it. I have now spent 5k into a trans and clutch and not having  confidence in the products so as installed so far. The shutter comes on when in fourth gear deceleration but stops when the clutch is depressed, and that is not normal to any one I've spoken to.  . .

 

[cuda]

There are so many things it could be but someone needs to pull it apart and check everything. The job is really not super hard yea the crossmember is a little bit of a *****. Things that come to mind are maybe the installers did not keep the pressure plate,clutch and flywheel in the right order? They come with a big paint stripe on them that SB puts on after they get balanced. Maybe the angle of the trans is slightly off and they tightened up like that on the pressure plate and then it is slightly binding? Are all (not most) of the rubber rivets in place? Then if that all looks good there is the transmission. Waiting hoping seems like it will cause damage to something. Good luck though!

[98whitelightnin]

Im still going through the same issues, no one wants to pull the trans for free to fix an issue since install.

[Scottyv]

12 minutes ago, 98whitelightnin said:

Im still going through the same issues, no one wants to pull the trans for free to fix an issue since install.

 

Humm,  how long ago was the install?

[98whitelightnin]

Close to two months. The sbdd organic doesnt fully disengage and the truck lurches when im at a stop and trying to get it into gear. Hard shifting and hard on synchro's