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Posted (edited)

Am I the only one who has a quad that makes the whole truck stumble, buck and shake like the VP is emptying when the throttle reaches the % you set max TPS to? I'll still have 10psi of fuel on the mechanical gauge right before the VP and after extensive test driving i worked out that if my throttle applied percentage equals or exceeds the max TPS it acts like the truck is running out of fuel. Lots of smoke ensues and it cuts out and bucks. I see 2.8.4 ADR is still the latest version. Am I the only one?

 

I'm running aggressive settings without min of 32% max of 40, 50, 60, and 65 as a final setting so the truck doesn't fall on its face. Boost scaling is 20psi, 2100ms (it stumbles and does the same out of fuel fit if I use 2200ms), 150% fueling from 6psi on up.

 

200hp f1 injectors 

62/68 .70ar

475/96/1.32

New Industrial Injection SO VP

New head gasket and no boost leaks, makes 60psi max. On the street 42psi is usually the most I see because I can't play in overdrive without speeding.

Airdog 4g 200 with sump and full gas tank.  New filter and water seperator.

 

I have a drive pressure gauge, s475 boost gauge and an overall boost gauge. Drive is 2-3psi less than boost until 60psi has been sustained for a few seconds, then drive climbs to 80psi eventually (on a 100mph pull).

Edited by rogerash0
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you felt it get weak after 2800 because of lack of timing.      You should have a good hard pull to 3500 rpm.   The VP is starting to fall off beyond ~3250 rpm but it is still able to do 600

Because level 2 cuts CANBus and limits to 100% cuts off anything above 100% fuel map.     I've ran never had one issue with Edge Comp for over 10 years on 5x5. Then running Quadzilla o

the reason we dont cut canbus on levels 4-xx is a good tune shouldnt need canbus to be cut.  canbus fuelig should be smooth and easily controllable with the right foot.   Wiretap is not easily control

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Posted (edited)

Also, ill do a 40psi pull and the quad will read a max of 32psi with a max canbus of say 2800.

 

Im set to the settings i posted above which is basically max fueling (150%) after 7psi.

 

Any idea how to get it to fuel harder? Thats why I have my wiretap set to as kill as possible too.

Edited by rogerash0
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Set max TPS to 100% you trying to cram the entire wiretap fuel table is a small span hence why it shudders. Set the min to 0% and set the max at 100%. Now wiretap works over the whole span of throttle.

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Posted (edited)

Thats not what I want moparman, I want all of the wire tap fueling by 40%. I dont want it until 30% because it adds smoke. I need to be able to step on the pedal to make it rev and shift correctly, about 32% TPS to make it double down shift and 35% tps to make it rev out to 2000rpm off the stop light so smoke stays minimal.  I live in a racey east coast area with lots of stoplights on a 50-60mph parkway. People race around here. I also am burning all the fuel by 40% TPS. I could make a video of it to prove it maybe (technically that would take 2 cams at once). 

 

The truck has a lot of air and needs all the fuel because this 200hp injectors are burning clean and its not pulling nearly as hard. My opinion is its too slow right now.

 

With fuel temps at 110-120*F my idle fuel pressure is 17 and it drops to 10psi under sustained max throttle/fresh filters/airdog 200. 13.6-13.7v

 

** even if I have TPS min set to 0 or 10% it will still cut out and smoke and fall on its face if max TPS is 40, 50 or 60% and my throttle percentage hits that max number. Same applies if i set it to 1800ms andor 30psi boost scaling. 

 

Thats why i feel like it may have been an isolated problem/programming bug. I even tried setting max fuel down to 130% , in conjunction with a of the above,  to help mitigate the possibility of the VP emptying.

 

When the truck was falling on its face smoking on a hard pull and had 10psi of solid fuel pressure, only when max tps was 40 or 50 or 60% and my pedal went that far down, again it made it seem like a programming glitch. 

Edited by rogerash0
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Posted (edited)

Swap the TPS to 0 to 100% then set the boost limit to 10 or 15 PSI then the wiretap stays out till the turbos spool then the fuel map follows the TPS fully. Because 100% TPS will equal 100% wiretap after the boost limit is reached.

 

When you set the max tps less than 100% that means it will cap out early so if set at 65% the wiretap is maxed out at 65% tps value.

 

Better to tune to boost than tps because the smoke. My economy tune...

 

Screenshot_20200705-191154_iQuad.jpg

 

Now my performance tune. This can light my tire fairly easy.

Screenshot_20200705-191339_iQuad.jpg

Edited by Mopar1973Man
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Posted (edited)

I forgot all about pump low scale psi, I stopped using it because by using min wiretap TPS i can stomp it and get all the power when i want it. If im racing a guy i don't want it to cut out wire tap until X psi. Thus I started using min TPS.

 

I seriously don't want 100% wiretap at 100% tps. I want 100% wire tap at 50% tps. I seldom ever go over 50% throttle.. shes burning clean and full steam, 40psi of boost (15psi from S475, 25psi from 62/68 SXE), at 2800-3000rpm if im 50% throttle. Once I hit OD I can put enough load on the engine to achieve 40-60psi of boost.

 

I'm running some new clean injectors and it needs more fuel at 50% tps, thats why I'm trying to give it ALL the fuel at 40-50% tps, over 7psi of boost. I dont know why canbus doesn't show max fuel (4095) when I've done a 50-60% tps/30-40psi, 0-60mph pull onto the hampton roads parkway, because my fueling is 150% from 7psi on up with 65% max wiretap TPS and 32% min wiretap TPS.

 

I'm also at sea level.

Edited by rogerash0
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@rogerash0   why not go WOT?  if you are asking for %100 wiretap you are techinically at WOT regardless of where your foot is on the pedal.  

 

post your full tune.  also post a data log of your run so we can look.   

 

I think what you are effectively doing is trying to force all your fueling between 0 and %50 throttle input then %50-100 is all the same.   

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Me, I agree, id rather use 100% of the throttle, but shamefully ever since I've had my truck in a single turbo config with an old edge,  it's never used more than 50% of then pedal (i don't think). Unless I remove the tuning completely, then it's slow and it does.

 

I've never posted a data log, and I've never graphed it in excel like you do.

 

I'll go make a few pulls and drive it some. I had some slight timijg changes to try out:

I had timing set to 15/18/21/23/24 the entire time. 

 

The pull in this video is a pretty standard "full pull" up to traffic speed that I will do if I dont have slow people in front of me, the truck is up to temp and Im feeling spunky. Its healthy and strong with good torque but its not that fast compared to the .80 ar housing, pulling hard in OD, that's a lot faster. Especially with a slightly lower than stock stall torque converter. I put a stock stall back in to help reduce smoke. Truck is also on small snow tires, 235/75?/16. Speedo is 10mph fast when it shows 65mph. At 35mph its fast by about 5mph.

 

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoBjdU62Kps

 

Data log of this short pull that didnt even hit over drive, with cells of 46% tps pull highlighted in orange:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oyjwZzxE2evJqAtdSxfjTydy41F14s8v/view?usp=sharing

 

The video shows 46% throttle. If I go over 50% pedal it goes over 3k rpm and doesnt pull any harder, it just moves the engines output out of its powerband. The burn on this run was exceptionally clean, thats why I have the fueling setup so hard, because it has all the air to take it. I saw no smoke what so ever; there could have been a small cloud when I first laid into it, but it would have been really really small because the trans shifting is well setup, so it would have been in 1st or 2nd gear when I laid into it, causing low smoke.

 

I could tune the powerband to go a bit higher with the spring wastegate I have, but its not worth the well setup bottom end torque and low smoke output I have going on right now. Data from this video pull: 18psi fuel pressure at idle, 13-14psi at 46% throttle, 25psi boost per quad (35 psi per manual gauge), coolant 203, engine load 46%, intake air temp 152*F, max rpm 2745rpm, vehicle speed max 58mph, CanBus Fuel 1838, timing 24.42. Those are the stats of the Data Logging page on iquad after the run.

 

Edit;

Here are some more videos of the smoke output so you believe me its running clean and wants more fuel.

Me - you always say I need loads more timing. Please believe me when i say I have tested extensively, ran absolute MAX timing allowed (up to 30*) for a long time, all up and down the timing scale. Where I have it is the smoothest, fastest, cleanest, and will more than likely save my HG. Yes I could run more timing but I find the results to be not worth the downsides. Torque goes up, smoke goes up, the engine gets louder, and worst of all it hits really hard and when I let out of a hard pull it decels REALLY hard. Not worth the nasty manners, or a blown HG. I have 625s and an o-ring head, fresh from D&J with a retorque done on it.

 

My iquad tuning from the videos:

This is a shared folder on my Google Drive that anyone with the link can access:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1XYJMhputgBftW43dtXkaMkF63MjENdRQ?usp=sharing

 

Me78569 - I'd love to go full throttle, but if I go over 50% the truck is probably going to try to rev out to 4k rpm and go all over the road. I havnt done it becasue its already pulling maximum at 50% throttle. If I lay into it more it will fall on its face like the VP is emptying or something. If I apply more throttle it goes over 3k rpm and you feel power start to fall out/off of its happy spot. I want to say that every time I try to go 100% it hits the max tps value and spits and sputters and defuels and smokes and bucks like crazy. Bad enough that once it popped out of gear. Because I still see 10-14psi (depending on how hot the fuel is) on my fuel pressure gauge, I feel like this is the programming bug of the truck throwing a fit when my throttle reaches the max TPS setting for wire tap, that was the original reason for the thread in the first place.

 

Going to 24* at 2500rpm is probably the right call. I know I've done that in the past and adding timing up top seemed solid; it didnt affect spool or smoke negatively. As long as when I let out of the pedal it doesnt slam me forward Im good with it. I'll give it another shot.

 

A photo of inside my quad box showing the jumper in the correct position:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xmhqx5OIcTdOPOIxQfK7ZH405DZwk0Uj/view?usp=sharing

 

Go Pro seems to take the sound away when it gets too loud. I hope you can hear that the truck is very smooth and not jumpy in the video.

Videos to show how clean its burning on a heatsoaked motor showing 140-150*F IATs:

 

 

 

 

Edited by rogerash0
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you need WAY more timing than you are running for the fuel you have.

 

I would be running 15/18/24/28/30

 

please post your entire tune. 

 

I am going to go back again and tell you that %50 vs %100 throttle is %100 in your mind.  Shoveling all fueling between 0-50% throttle is just going to make the truck more jumping. 

 

 

Key difference between the edge and the Quad is the quad is multiplying the stock fueling command rather than adding to it.  This means that your Throttle input is CRITICAL if you want fueling to be higher because the ecm using throttle input as a key value to tell how much fuel to command.   You can kind of tune around this and tune the quad to fuel at %50 throttle, but with the ECM knowing it is at WOT you aren't doing yourself a service.    If you want WOT go WOT, that's what the pedal is for.

 

Something is up with your boost reading as well.  It is WAY to low for the fuel / air you have.  I would expect to see that 62 come online WAY before 1800 rpm.     I would check the jumping in the box and ensure it is not connecting both pins as it seems like maybe your map sensor is setup for a late model truck rather than an early model.  This would explain why the ecm is seeing such low boost.  

 

1998.5-2000-adrenaline-jumper-placement.

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Posted (edited)

I made a ton of edits to my post because I was an "expired" member. I bought a silver plan though, so I can post like normal now. I figured the help on the site was worth the money. Prices were reasonable.

 

I feel like my edge JWA comp was smoother fueling. When I get this quad dialed in as much as possible I will re-install the Edge JWA Comp and compare. I'd like to get them both dynoed back to back at Firepunk too, perhaps this winter around November or something.

 

I've got a ton of homework due soon so I dont have the time now, but I can find my chest mount for the Go Pro and wear it so you can watch my manual gauges of Boost/Drive/S475 boost and see that the turbo does light pre-1800 RPM. The boost sensor is just very laggy and reports low. Hence why I am now a fan of manual gauges. Lavon is the first person to tell me that they dont always trust the electronic boost sensors and that it probably wasnt right. At his place a long time ago, the manual gauge read 55psi when the electronic gauge read 52psi, as a max boost pressure on the dyno. However that's just at max, its during transient that the electronic boost gauge on my truck is way slow and low reporting. Ofcourse my transient boost is even more reactive/faster with compound turbos.

Edited by rogerash0
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something is causing your boost reading to be WAY low.   I have been in a couple 62/75 twin setups and they don't build boost as slow as your truck and they dont taper off at 25 psi like yours does.    You lack of canbus fueling is causing a significant lack of power.

 

SHoveling all wiretap between %30 tps and 65 tps is going to be EXTREMELY SURGEY.

 

You are also not setting any timing settings

 

 

please try this tune.  and use heavy throttle input.  Your tune other tune is shoveling wiretap at above %30 input this is why it is not smooth and why you can't go WOT.  

 

Power Levels: 6

 

Fuel Load timing: 2

Low PSI Timing Reduct: 2

Timing Reduct Scaling: 100

Light Throttle Timing Adv:2

Light Throttle Timing Load Limit: 30


 

Timing vs rpm

1500: 16

2000: 19

2500: 25

3000: 28

Timing Max: 30

 

Pump Stretch: 2000 microseconds

TPS Pump max: 100%

TPS Pump Min: 0%

Minimum Pump Tap Fueling Percentage:50    *** This means if you go high throttle you get no less than this % of wiretap.  At %50 throttle you will get %25 wiretap at %100 throttle you will get %50 wiretap.

Pump Low Boost Scale PSI: 0

 

Boost Scaling: 40 PSI

 

RPM Limit: 3500

 

Power Reduction: 10%

 

0 PSI %: 119%

1 PSI %: 121%

2 PSI %: 123%

3 PSI %: 125%

4 PSI %: 127%

5 PSI %: 135%

6 PSI %: 150%

7 PSI %: 150%

8 PSI %: 150%

9 PSI %: 150%

10 PSI %: 150%

11 PSI %: 150

12 PSI %: 150%

13 PSI %: 150%

14 PSI %: 150%

15 PSI %: 150%

16 PSI %: 150%

18 PSI %: 150%

20 PSI %: 150%

22 PSI %: 150%

24 PSI %: 150%

26 PSI %: 150%

28 PSI %: 150%

30 PSI %: 150%

 

 

I would even suggest a less aggressive fueling curve and more throttle input, but you seem to want heavy fuel down low.  

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Posted (edited)

I would actually like to use more throttle because it will make my trans take longer to shift, which will make each gear wind out further with higher RPM, which will reduce smoke. I have some 35" tires that are like new, and my small snow tires are getting towards the end of their life, so this will be especially useful with big tires.

 

When I knock out two tests in the next 2-3 hours I will input your tune and take it for a spin.

 

BTW I ran wiretap at 0%, 12% and 25%, 32% for a long time. Adding wire tap in later doesnt make it any surgier or harder hitting at all, all it does is add some power and torque. Adding it in at 32% keeps the smoke below that TPS to almost non-existant. Adding it below 32% didnt feel like it added torque or power. I have it set to 32% because by the time I step into the throttle and hit 32% the chargers are spun up, and it brings the fuel in at the right time when it can be burnt instead of wasted. Its to reduce the smoke show.

 

Drew at D&J said my bottom end seemed unusally weak. I wonder if its because of the cam; they dont make or sell it anymore. Im confident I dont have any boost leaks due to 60psi max, very low smoke, and very strong off idle TQ at say 1300rpm.

 

Do you want me to capture your tune on camera, or no need? If so, do you want the dash or the rear of the truck?

Edited by rogerash0
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If you want to use more throttle then drop your canbus fueling % to be less aggressive.   

 

Start at %90 and work up by %2 until you hit 10 psi then ramp up by %5 

 

You will still get the same total fueling as you will be using heavier throttle input.  

 

You have move than enough injector to get your turbos going without wiretap at all and using only stock mapping.  

 

I believe you have a map sensor that is reading lazy.  Looking at your datalog I have no confince that your map sensor is reporting valid information.

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Posted (edited)

I want to say that its still the OEM/stock map sensor. I had replaced it with a NAPA one for good measure whilst troubleshooting, and the NAPA one failed so I got a refund for it, and stuck the stock MAP sensor.

 

I used to run fueling down around 75% starting out, and 92% starting out, and so on. I found that it made the bottom end lazier and not light as quickly, and it didnt save any smoke at all. Infact less fueling almost made the smoke worse because it would take longer to light the turbos and spin them up. That was when I had the smokier 220hp injectors and may have had a minor boost leak where the billet intake plenum met the very back bottom corner of the head. Still with the .70ar exhaust housing on.

 

Changing my signature is some goofy procedure on this site, so I havnt updated it to the mach5/200hp injectors that smoke 60% less than the mach6/220hp injectors and are down about 30hp on the mach 6s.

 

 

Edited by rogerash0
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Posted (edited)

when you were starting out at %92 were you using WOT to go fast?

 

Nearly positive your bucking is related to a lack of timing after ~2k rpm

 

Edited by Me78569
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41 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

If you want to use more throttle then drop your canbus fueling % to be less aggressive.   

 

Start at %90 and work up by %2 until you hit 10 psi then ramp up by %5 

 

You will still get the same total fueling as you will be using heavier throttle input.  

 

Is this possible without the bottom end being lazier? Hopefully your gonna say by pressing the throttle harder the bottom end will get more fueling, and wont be lazier. I feel like more pedal doesnt matter because it will still be set to fuel XX percent at at X PSI, however it sounds like you have stated that more throttle input will increase canbus fueling.

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Remember the ECM is fueling based on Boost, RPM, and Throttle input. 

 

low boost, high rpm low throttle = low fuel. 

 

The quadzilla is taking the ecm's fueling request based on it's own maps and multipling the ecm command by whatever you have setup at X psi.  

 

So yes, you will get harder fueling if you push the pedal down more. 

 

 

All of your canbus tuning should be done at WOT situtations so you have a nice smooth fueling curve that is WOT when you put your foot into it.   

 

 

Not doing this will try and shovel all fueling into a small % of tps input.  

 

 

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Oh okay, I didnt realize what the ECMs fueling equation was and that it was still being utilized. In my head I thought the quad was taking over completely. 

 

On the contrary, your tune you told me to try above with heavy throttle input still has a heavy fueling table. Never the less, its going to run very similar to what Im running now, it just wont be as powerful because wiretap wont come on very strong. I'll see if it permits me to use all the throttle however, without making the truck self destruct/fall flat on its face/smoke like a train.

1 hour ago, Me78569 said:

Minimum Pump Tap Fueling Percentage:50    *** This means if you go high throttle you get no less than this % of wiretap.  At %50 throttle you will get %25 wiretap at %100 throttle you will get %50 wiretap.

 

I understand, but why can I not get 100% wiretap at 100% throttle?

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because I coded a max of %50 fueling for tha tuning variable.  asking for %100 wiretap of 2000US at idle is dumb and people would be blowing up their trucks left and right.   setting to %50 means you will get no less than %50 wiretap at WOT and climb towards %100 based on other sensor input.     

 

I wouldn't even be messing with wiretap until you figure out your base tune.

 

The tune I suggested only has a heavy fueling table because you said you wanted that.   I wouldn't run that tune as it is too fuel aggressive for my taste and my testing showed 0 increase in performance when running a fuel heavy tune vs a tune that ran clean. 

 

 

 

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Oh, I misunderstood the no less part.

 

Hopefully you can see that my current setup with stock stall converter, small chargers, no boost leaks, said settings is burning mighty clean for a heat soaked summer day. In the past the difference in smoke between hot summer days and cool spring/fall/winter days (it doesnt get that cold here!) is astronomical. So right now Im bent on giving the truck more fuel, because it feels healthy but its like 450rwhp healthy, not 600rwhp healthy. It looks to me like canbus reflects that.

 

Hopefully with the 100% tps setting I can utilize more pedal and get that other half of the fueling curve I desire.

 

If 50-100% TPS input makes the truck blow over 3k rpm Im not sure what I'll do, pull fuel I guess? I can tell the powerband with the small .70ar housing doesnt want to exceed 3k rpm. Its wasted hot air past that. If I put the .80ar housing on then it can take hell; even Drew at D&J said the VP is done fueling past 2800rpm, and I believe him, that's where I feel it sign off/start to get weak, beyond 2800rpm. That was prior to him even driving my truck, he said that when I dropped it off.

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you felt it get weak after 2800 because of lack of timing.   

 

You should have a good hard pull to 3500 rpm.   The VP is starting to fall off beyond ~3250 rpm but it is still able to do 600 hp at 3500 rpm.  plenty of dyno logs show that.

 

I won't be worried about limiting RPM to 2800 as you are leaving a lot of fueling rpms on the table.  

 

A truck tuned well revving out to 3500 will be faster than a truck shifting at 2800 rpm.  

 

 

You lack of canbus is in the data log is why it feels like a 450 hp truck not a 600 hp truck.  The lack of boost reading at the sensor at ~1800-2200 rpm is what is causing that lack of canbus fuel.  

 

I would expect your setup to be making 10+ psi before 1800 rpm on a WOT 3rd gear pull and 50+ psi above 2400 rpm.  I dont see that in your logs. 

 

 

The data logs from the edge comp show ~28+ * of timing from 2500 rpm and above.  I seen max timing commands multiple times, at 31*.   you were asking for ~5-6 less timing than that in your orginal tune.  

 

 

That's a big difference.  A VP should be maxing timing at 30* be 3k rpms unless it doesn't run well.  

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Me78569 said:

Power Reduction: 10%

Not sure what this is. Valet power?

What you said sounds good. I will add timing up top. Having too much down low is what I was really concern with avoiding due to cylinder pressure and smoke and jerkier boost characterstics.

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Posted (edited)

Im loading your tune into my phone as we speak. Im on 2.8.4, which I looked in the Downloads section on here, it looks to be the latest. I dont know where I input lvl1 power/"power reduction" but I suspect its not a big deal. I set Valet to 70% in hopes that it runs that setting when my coolant has not come up to the set temp yet.

Edited by rogerash0
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