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LorenS

Normal Load % for Basically Stock Truck?

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Now that I have a Quad (and now set to the correct V2 tuning!) I can see my timing, engine load, etc.  When I look around this site I see all kinds of ranges for normal timing and load percentage for various driving conditions, but most folks have larger injectors, higher pop pressures, etc.  I have reman Bosch injectors with about 30k miles on them.  I still have the HY35 turbo.  I roll down the road at about 7,800 pounds, with camper shell.  Attached photos are flat Iowa interstate driving, from 10 days ago.  The Engine Load seems high; I often see 65% on even a mild rise, such as this morning on my way to work +10 miles into the interstate trip.  At idle, my load percentage is 6-8%.

1. What is normal engine load percentage for a basically stock truck?

2. If my values aren't normal, is it indicative of a VP44 with lots of internal wear/tolerance?  Other cause?

3.  What does the yellow Turbo warning indicate?  It's almost ALWAYS present on my screen, but I see it on Mopar1973Man's screenshots, too.  Since my truck is stock, does this mean I may have a boost leak, or...?  No codes shown on my OBDLink.

 

The photos are from before I knew to change my vehicle to "V2 Dodge...", so Timing wasn't available.  My timing at these speeds varies from about 15 to almost 20 degrees, never 20 or above that I've witnessed.  My low load advance limit may need to be raised to enable advance during flat ground traveling, but I do not want to do so until I'm comfortable it is not likely to cause damage.

 

Any and all advice is appreciated.  I have not installed my temp sensor in the engine oil at this time, as with an auto transmission it's not the easiest access on the filter housing.  Has anyone put a tee in the turbo feed line to measure temp?  I put an oil sampling port in the "extra" port, but will remove for the sensor if the tee is a bad idea.

No, none of this is in the 16 page installation manual for the Quad.  While I concede this information may be in some of the tuning write ups, I missed it numerous times if it is.

Screenshot_20200707-204158.png

Screenshot_20200707-181843.png

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2 hours ago, LorenS said:

1. What is normal engine load percentage for a basically stock truck?

 

Engine load is equal to the amount of fuel being delivered. That being said now engine load is a product of drag and speed. More drag and more speed equals more engine load to keep the truck at a constant speed. My average for my setup at 65 MPH or 2,000 RPM is roughly 16 to 18%. Now that seems much lower than what your looking it. This is because a larger injectors take much less duration to inject the same amount of fuel. Stock injectors will require more duration to inject the same amount of fuel. Hence engine loads are higher for stock injectors.  Just a change of tire size say to 285's will increase engine load. Dragging brake shoes can add to drag and engine load. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Yes, it has been while reading your posts that I noticed how low your engine load is.  Knowing you had larger injectors I assumed that had a lot to do with it, wasn't sure about your hybrid turbo, dry climate, elevation, effect of different OD ratios, and also knew about our different final drive ratio due to tires.  Your engine has a lot more miles, but we know are well maintained miles.  I only know the history for the last 48k miles of my truck, no idea age or condition of lift pump.  Kind of hoping SOMEONE out there has stock or close to stock injectors and can provide insight as to whether my engine load is reasonable, especially the 65% I saw this morning!  Slight rolling terrain, not a 'hill', by any means.

Should I be setting my Low PSI Timing Reduct to something less than 5 PSI?

Light throttle load limit to more than 30%?

Edited by LorenS

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Posted (edited)

 

Not to mention you have a fuel supply issue too. Looking at the two screen shots you have fuel temps in the 140 to 150F range which is getting quite hot. The only reason for this problem is fuel pressure is dropping below 14 PSI and the overflow valve is closing. I run about 17 to 18 PSI of fuel pressure at 65 MPH. Notice the fuel temp and intake follow each other...

 

Screenshot_20200708-100104_iQuad.jpg

 

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, LorenS said:

Should I be setting my Low PSI Timing Reduct to something less than 5 PSI?

Light throttle load limit to more than 30%?

 

You want just enough Timing reduct to spool the turbo rapidly on quick heavy throttle. I 

Now my RV towing Tune is set for 33% Light throttle load. My Economy tune is 25%. 

 

This one is empty truck tune and running about 16 to 18% engine load flat but allowed for small hill climbs under the cruise setting. 

Screenshot_20200717-121928_iQuad.jpg

 

Now you can see the enhanced load I've got different valves for my tuning tune because my average flat ground load is about 30% to 32%

Screenshot_20200717-121957_iQuad.jpg

Edited by Mopar1973Man

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:thud:that all looks confusing as he77 to me. I'm not a tech guy, I think I'll stay away from quads or any other tuner. Hats off to those of you that understand it all! 

 Hope you get your issues figured out, good luck. Lots of help to be found here.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Doubletrouble said:

:thud:that all looks confusing as he77 to me. I'm not a tech guy, I think I'll stay away from quads or any other tuner. Hats off to those of you that understand it all! 

 Hope you get your issues figured out, good luck. Lots of help to be found here.

 

I can give classes on this its super easy to build tunes on Quadzilla. Think this is hard look at a EFILive or Smarty Touch no that is complex and confusing as hell.

 

Pump Tap Parameters is all the setting for wire tap.

  • How much time to add wire tap in microseconds.
  • When does the wiretap max out vs TPS signal.
  • When does wire tap start based on TPS signal.
  • How much wiretap signal to start off with in percent.
  • When to start wiretap based on boost.
  • How far to go with wiretap based on boost pressure.

 

Timing Parameters is all the setting for timing.

  • Load based timing after load increased past cruise state. 
  • How far to retard timing based on heavy throttle.
  • Second parameter for timing reduct.
  • Cruise timing to add on top.
  • Cruise timing range from 0% to ...

 

RPM Timing Max is all the setting for max timing limits. 

 

Boost Level Fueling is all your CANBus fueling based on boost pressure. 

Edited by Mopar1973Man

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9 hours ago, Doubletrouble said:

:thud:that all looks confusing as he77 to me. I'm not a tech guy, I think I'll stay away from quads or any other tuner. Hats off to those of you that understand it all! 

 Hope you get your issues figured out, good luck. Lots of help to be found here.

Not at all man, the quad is easy as can be. I'm literally technologically stupid lol. But with @Mopar1973Man and @Me78569 and the rest of the guys on here, I've got big Shirley running on point and I never thought I'd understand the quad lol the guys on here are awesome and are always down to help, all you have to do is ask 🤘🏼

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Posted (edited)

What I try to encourage is you to play with setting in a control environments. Like quiet streets or back roads in farm country. Every truck is different in what it likes to be tuned. For what ever reason my truck loves the 23 to 24 degree around 2,000 RPM. The engine load drops out very low, engine oil temps drop into the 160 to 170 realm. My economy tune has the wiretap late for the reason that most normal driving can be done without wiretap. But nice to WOT and have it kick in for passing. I'm constantly watching and learning and trying to squeeze out that extra 1% more power and efficiency. If you export your current tune you can import it back if need by if you screw up.

 

The biggest problem both of us (Me78569) face is people wanting to product smoke. That is a sure sign your flooding out the turbo and need to cut back. Quadzilla allows you to make clean tunes that produce more power this way than all the old school coal rolling from like Edge Products and others. Why is this because as injectors get bigger you need to add timing. No of the other tuners allow for controlled timing adjustments. Then with bigger injectors you need to build a defuel zone to allow for turbo spooling. Once the turbo is spun you can drop in quite a bit more fuel. My Economy tune when the wiretap hits there is ZERO change in exhuast smoke but you sure feel the truck pack up and leave.

I still get guys asking for smoke tunes... No one will build them because its such a waste. Smoke tunes are much slower than any clean tune @Me78569 or myself can produce.

Edited by Mopar1973Man
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I fitted a quad late  last year. Stock engine. 3.56 gear. auto. 33/34" tyre. I have zero time at the moment to build a tune. Used a free tune on here somewhere as a start, i'm that impressed It's still the one I use. Level 3 no WT due to stock auto. Just drove 200 mile to Cumbria yesterday towing our 5th which is close to Scottish border plenty of grades NO smoke, plenty of power, egt max around 1000, drop to 3rd locked around 800. Fuel temps around 100 pulling hard although I did notice fuel temps increasing a little as fuel level drops, due to less fuel in tank to dilute hot fuel from vp i'd say

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@BrokeAssPainter, I to am texhno-tarded when it comes to this stuff. I may someday spring for a quad, we will see. It just worries me a bit because my truck is my daily driver as well and can afford to have it down for very long. I just "cleaned house" and got rid of all my other vehicles. Down to my dually, the wife's car and an '80 Chevy square body project.

 I agree with you, there are great guys on here more than willing to help out. I feel I would almost need someone on the phone to walk me through step by step. In person would be better but not always feasible.

 I have some other mods in mind but may work myself up to a quad one day.

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@Doubletrouble  fitting a quad is easy. Load a pre done tune and my truck now is a pleasure to drive, trans is better also as it now changes much closer to our speed limits so 3rd locked is our 30 4th locked is our 50 and it holds gears better

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Posted (edited)

Building tunes is a no big deal. If anyone want a hand at building tunes I'm more than willing to help out. 

 

As of OP's original question. The thing is when you start tuning and setting up timing you'll find that as you get the timing set up correctly the engine load will go down. I know stock ECM vs. any of my tunes might be about 2 to 5% lower engine loads on the Quadzilla vs. Stock ECM. This is because the stock ECM tune is retarded so more the flame front is turn into boost. When you advance timing more the flame is doing more piston work and less turbo work. Typically a good tune will roll on next to nothing for boost.

Edited by Mopar1973Man

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On Saturday I put the lift pump on an ECM triggered relay, which (to no surprise) didn't raise pressure, even when 'hotwired' with a jumper instead of the ECM.

 

On Sunday I replaced the existing Carter lift pump (frame mounted) and at first the pressure went down some.  Now after 150 miles or so the pressure is in the 14-16 PSI range at low load and must be opening the relief valve as my fuel temp is more in the 109 range versus +140.  My assumption is that the vanes finally mated to the stator(?) and there's less blow by.

The thing is still as loud as the old one.  Speaking of the old one I disassembled the pump end and it look great.  No trash of any kind in the inlet screen; I thought perhaps there would be from when it was mounted on the block.  When relocated to frame I put an inline screen ahead of it, the one that comes with FASS DRP units that they say to replace every 5k miles.  I ran the thing 20k miles, I'd guess, and it was clear, too.  I guess I have been pretty lucky and wise in my fueling station selections!  I freely admit I find the newest or best-maintained fueling stations at which to buy fuel.  If they don't bother to change burned out bulbs or do touch-up painting, what are the odds they maintain their tanks and filters?

Once I buy or fabricate a suitable mount the FASS pump will get installed.  I bought it in 2017 and never installed it because I only wanted to run it off of a relay.  Well, I finally made the harness then realized I didn't have a suitable bracket!  Geno's used to have them for $8, but no longer.  Will need to root around the scrap iron pile for some 3/16" strap, etc., and get after it.

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If you go offroad make sure the filter bottoms are above the frame rail. Really does suck when the FASS is dangling down too low and go over a hump dirt and tear the filter off the base.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

If you go offroad make sure the filter bottoms are above the frame rail. Really does suck when the FASS is dangling down too low and go over a hump dirt and tear the filter off the base.

That's good advice.  My FASS is just the wimpy FASS, with no fiters.  It's the DRP model, just 80 GPH and was designed to sit on the engine block like the Carter.  I have my pump situated inside the frame rail near the skid plate instead of RIGHT by the fuel tank.  Likely because I saw the photo of your setup and found it to be quite wise.

The filter I mention looks like an old inline filter for a mid-90's GM truck, but with hose barbs instead of threads.  150 micron screen, nothing fancy.

Edited by LorenS

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, LorenS said:

That's good advice.  My FASS is just the wimpy FASS, with no fiters.  It's the DRP model, just 80 GPH and was designed to sit on the engine block like the Carter.  I have my pump situated inside the frame rail near the skid plate instead of RIGHT by the fuel tank.  Likely because I saw the photo of your setup and found it to be quite wise.

The filter I mention looks like an old inline filter for a mid-90's GM truck, but with hose barbs instead of threads.  150 micron screen, nothing fancy.

When I bought my truck it had the block mounted fass pump,  looked all good  to me.  Soon after a 10k lb plus bumper pull  and this forum sorted that out, had coughs and very small misfires pulling hard trailer or not. That FASS is now on an Audi which has a vp which is smaller.   Tank screen  was OK.  That pump is not enough from my experience. .. now on mechanical DTT from dap. ..all good now BUT I will  add  I use 2 micron  filters so block  fass may be good for others just not 2 micron Cat  filters

If I think what you are using for filters is correct thats a  pre pump screen and not a filter. 150 micron screen is about sand particles or vp and injector killers. My truck had the same when I got it luckily just fitted before I got it

Edited by wil440

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Installed the DRP late this afternoon, bumped starter and achieved 19 PSI. Have over 800 hundred miles to drive this week so we'll see how fuel temps turn out.

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If you adjust your display so intake temp and fuel temp are next to each other you should see the two numbers hovering together. I typically see only about 120*F for fuel temp for the summer. 

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I don't believe the new pump helped much. Fuel temp reached 141, and it's 10 degrees cooler out. I did have an extra 1,000 pounds in the bed, so the test is far from definitive.

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Around 118. I think the ECM was doing a lot of pulse width modulating because the pressure would go up and down with a fair bit of regularity, 14 to 17. Then sometimes it would go up to 18-19 for a few seconds. I could not deduce the pattern looking at IAT, boost, load %, fuel temp.

 

I almost tied my relay into the wire that IBMobile recommends if the ECM loses the lift pump circuit, but really didn't want to put a splice in a perfectly good wire.

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I get that, but our trucks are about as different as they are similar, so I don't know how much stock to put in comparing temps.

The big differences are that I've got dinky injectors at stock pop pressure, a dinky turbo, a slushbox, and operate in a sea-level sauna compared to Idaho. My truck has also been used and abused before I got it (36k pound plates?!), whereas I recall you bought yours new and surely took care of it. And yes, I'm running giant 3rd gen stock tires with my 0.69 overdrive.

 

We have so many differences it's hard to know why my fuel temps are reported as high. For all I know the sensor is bad, my return line is restricted, or since my injectors are small the solenoid has to be energized longer each injection cylce and thus puts more heat in the fuel. Most likely if I did the IBMobile mod the temp would come down.

 

Maybe my relief valve isn't up to snuff.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, LorenS said:

The big differences are that I've got dinky injectors at stock pop pressure, a dinky turbo, a slushbox, and operate in a sea-level sauna compared to Idaho.

 

Oh... Idaho you think is cooler? HA! It was a 100*F here yesterday typically I see 115 to 117*F in Riggins, ID. Elevation ranges from 700 feet in Lewiston, ID to 9,000 feet at Heaven's Gate (Riggins, ID). Looking at what temps are around the VP44 intake is more dominant about fuel temp than block temperature typically. Being the intake temps roughly what fuel temp will be. Injectors wise depending on how old / miles could be the pop pressure is low. OD on an auto makes the final ratio smaller just by a bit more. 0.75 vs 0.69. Then I can throw in rotational mass as for every 1 pound of rotational mass you can ditch is like 8 pounds off the frame. Bigger and heavier tires will make for higher engine loads. Hence why I ran the other direction away from large tires down to smaller tire to reduce engine loading. Gives me better efficiency all the way around ditching extra rotational mass that just only looks cool, and steals power. Being Iv'e got grades around here that most don't think about. Several roads are between 10 to 16% grades around here. 

 

16 percent grade.jpg

 

Just like I've gotta head back to Anatone, WA to finish my injection pump project on a CASE C580 back hoe. That trip is nothing but up and down mountains. Running as high as 4,000 feet and dropping to mere 700 feet above sea level. Temperatures on my last trip were around a 100*F in Lewiston, ID during the day. Other than some mechanical differences climate wise its pretty close. 

 

Screenshot from 2020-07-28 07-01-45.png

 

Edited by Mopar1973Man

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8 hours ago, LorenS said:

I'm running giant 3rd gen stock tires with my 0.69 overdrive.

Your 265 70r 17's are the same size as my 265 75 16's. A little larger than Mike's but most folks here are running larger also. 

 

Which @IBMobile mod are you speaking of that might bring down temps?

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