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JOHNFAK

New One - truck stalls when moving into gear

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JOHNFAK

ok - don't think I have seen this one before that I remember. Got my truck back few weeks back with new RV275's and some valve/head work.All good except when I start off in morning it stalls the engine. Basically I start 1st time everytime with 16-17psi. Then I sit for 30 secs @800 rpm and as soon as I engaged 'D' or 'R' (depending on how parked) ... the rpms drop around 400 and the engine stalls. Once the enine is warmed up and running ...... all ok .......... any ideas ???

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ISX

This problem seems to be going around like a disease. Nobody seems to know exactly what cures it but when people change out injectors and clean sensors up and solder all the connections it seems to go away, then come back and haunt them for the rest of their life. I think JLWelding has been battling this issue for $4000 worth, the last thing on his list is a wiring harness, everything else has been changed many times, and I do mean everything but the engine block. I *think* it is an auto trans issue only. Need to confirm that. Sasqch had the exact same thing and he said changing fuels fixed it. He filled up in alaska and it always did it but he went on vacation to the 48 states and said it completely stopped. Figure that one out :rolleyes: I don't think anyone really knows what actually fixed it on everyones trucks since most people change out a ton of things that just happen to fix it. Sasqch has had the issue come and go but it seems like it fixes it with every part he changes so it is almost impossible to pinpoint. First time was CKP sensor fixed it then injectors fixed it then different fuel fixed it. I do want to know if it is just an auto trans thing though. Hmm, it appears jlweldings is a manual. Well that narrows down a lot of things. Actually I'm not sure he has the same symptoms. But I know Sasqch did. This is like the Millennium Prize Problems :ahhh:Well heres a thought. It seems a lot like the tranny just drags the engine down or something. I think this has been disproven but has anyone tried doing it with the transfer case in neutral so that the trans will just freewheel? I'm gonna swap you truck for a week John :lol:

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JOHNFAK

really - crap ? I thought JLWeldings issue was more of a LOPE - I need to check his stuff out again. I thought originally it was the 3x disk TC requiring more pressure on the driveline to move (low stall) - therefore taking more rpm away from the engine - but it never was this bad after all that work. So that leaves Head/valve work ......... and injectors. I'm leaning to injectors - but have no NO idea how that could cause a 400rpm drop during engageing the driveline .......

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ISX

Yeah this issue never makes sense when you read about what fixed them. I don't know about jlwelding, I thought his was just a lope too but I think it dies on him whenever it wants. This is Sasqch's thread. http://forum.mopar1973man.com/showthread.php/1584-Problems-Stalling-when-shifting-to-drive-and-hard-starting-when-hot.-Ideas Another thread, new VP44 fixed it. http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/archive/engine-dies-put-into-gear-t162639.html The problem doesn't have a consistent fix at all. Same thing. http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/help-truck-dies-put-drive-reverse-t50719.html I'm starting to see a pattern with this issue and people playing with injectors.. Post #4 on that last link said: Things to check that might help: 1) Some trucks can develope a corrosion trouble between the connector tube and injector or the connector tube and the injection line. Check this. 2) Bill at DTT had one of my customers adjust something in the tranny that cured his trouble. 3) Check the banjos to the VP if your truck still has them. They have caused this trouble for one of my customers. 4) The cold weather reflash is valid for your truck and does fix some of the trucks affected, but not all. I think about half of them are fixed this way. 5) Disconnect the batteries for a few hours. 6) Get some Diesel from a different vendor. A Bully Dog customer had this trouble last year and after he changed brands the trouble went away. Its worth a quick try. Of the 6 customers that have reported this trouble....2 have lost their injection pump soon after, 2 were fixed by the reflash, 1 disconnected the batteries for a few hours and it fixed it, and 1 customer I built them larger injectors and traded them out. The set I received back went into another truck and the trouble was not there. This is leading me to believe that some injection pumps are just more sensitive than others of what injector they have in front of them. Its very hard to nail down exactly what is going on, but the electronic idle fueling curves are certainly at the top of the suspect list. Try those things and PM me or the dealer you got them from and we can get it handled.

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JOHNFAK

Well heres a thought. It seems a lot like the tranny just drags the engine down or something. I think this has been disproven but has anyone tried doing it with the transfer case in neutral so that the trans will just freewheel? I'm gonna swap you truck for a week John :lol:

Well - jus twent out and tried it. Definately drew the rpms down much less. Probably 200 rpm instead of 400rpm. Not sure exactly what that says appart from when driveline fully engaged it adds 200rpm load to engine ?

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ISX

Did it still die? That last link I did that I also copied a guys post on has a lot of info on this issue, and I have formed another conclusion that people are also rebuilding their trans. So the 2 things everyone seems to do that also have this issue is a better trans than stock and different injectors. I am wondering if the VP is finicky enough to complain about different injectors (which surely act differently than the stock injectors) and the load of a good trans. Maybe at idle it only has so much threshold before it gives up? Hmm the thing is that yours drops in idle before it dies, which is about the only clue I have ever seen on this issue. Everyone else's seems to act like you just turned the key off. I assume everyone uses better flowing injectors than stock and I wonder if they flow too much for the VP to handle at idle. Like, this is very extreme but kinda the effect of shooting out all of the fuel from the injection line then having a line full of air (or extremely low pressure fuel, same with inside the VP). It seems like yours is able to accomodate a little better than everyone elses. Of course I could be way off with this theory. HMMMMMMMM I just read on this one post #20 http://forum.mopar1973man.com/showthread.php/1584-Problems-Stalling-when-shifting-to-drive-and-hard-starting-when-hot.-Ideas He said: Once the starter engaged and the truck started the fuel pump came on and The pressure went to 17 psi. I backed out of the garage put the truck in drive and it died (like always) put it into neutral and started it. The fuel pressure gauge started going crazy (first time it has ever done this) the needle jumped from 5 to 12 back and forth never going under 5 and never going over 12 after about 10 seconds of this without stabilizing of going to the normal 17, I shut the truck off. So now I reallllly wonder about he injectors having too much flow. I need to think about this more. I wish I knew about every single sensor inside the VP more. Ehhh now I am thinking his lift pump was just turning off. The line about what I posted said that his lift pump didn't turn on for 2 seconds like it always had before. But doesn't the VP tell the lift pump to turn on? Or am I wrong on that part?

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JOHNFAK

NoI kinda agree - not 100% sure all the symptons are exactly the same - but there are soime similarities. The only reason I was leading to injectors was it occured straight after having them installed. It definately dropped the RPM when the driveline was engaged (D or R) .... but not to the put of stall and that was with new TC + VB. Now new injectors => it does. When the transfer casse was in neutral like you suggested - shifting from P->D still dropped from say 800rpm down to 600 rpm .... but it never died. I will play with this a few more times to get a bit more accurate feel for it and let you know.

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ISX

So your pinpointing it to injectors. Seems to be the case. More fuel for the fix! Now what is the VP doing that won't let it fuel them things at idle. Let me look at some schematics and see what I can dig up on this thing.

--- Update to the previous post...

BTW, does it have any codes?

And what do injector cleaner and summer fuel have in common that causes it to be fixed. Hmmm

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JOHNFAK

yeah - not sure if the injectors require more pressure to 'pop' in order to deliver/atomize the fuel ??? But then - rust running rv275 - not like its +150HP injectors. And also - what happens within the vp44/injector to engine when you move from 'P' to 'D'.I mean - even in 'P' the injectors are fueling right ....... so whay would 'D' make a big difference ....... and especailly to the RPM. Thats the bit that confuses me I guess ......... seems like it has to be injector/fuel related ....... but my guage is 15-17 all the time ...... even at startup/idle .......... then why would it drop 400rpm if it was injector related ?? Sure it would just hard start or idle rough - but not really drop rpm right ?

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ISX

Well it is easy to turn the engine in P or N but when you put a load on it, it is like the idle fuel delivery thinger is already maxed out just idling without a load, so it becomes too much for it. I know Mike has had a miss ever since he put in those RV275's which further make me think that at idle, the pump just doesn't know what to think of bigger injectors. When your driving it I don't think it cares but at idle I think it has a "stock injector" mindset which makes it go nuts when you put in higher flowing injectors :shrug:

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flman

It could be air in the tranny on a cold start. I had this issue with both of my Jeeps. If you dont have the Mopar spin on filter inside of the transmission, the check valve may be leaking by and draining the transmission cooler. I made the mistake of using after market filter kits on both of my Jeeps. And it would bring the engines right to a halt when engaging. I did not bother to pull the pan again, I made my own mod. Read about it here. Now they both engage very solidly on a cold engagement. http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=98&t=55110 Since this is not a Dodge you may want to verify the return line, I did it while the transmission was hot and engine running, feel the 2 lines, the coolest one is the return.

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Wild and Free

Did this happen after the tranny cooler install? If so what size are the lines as compared to the factory lines? Did you bypass the heat exchanger on the side of the block? If so It could be a restriction that won't allow the converter to drain properly and fast enough and causing it to flood with oil and cause what you are seeing.

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JOHNFAK

Not sure on either of those with regard to the check valve/tranny flow. The issue was their after the headwork/injector install and prior to the tranny cooler install.Didn't bypass the heate.Derale 15960 was the part. -8AN and 1/2" fittings. Gonna start out with the easy things. Gonna try disconnecting my edge (I have a weak VP/tap connection) - and fix this.Add some 2 stroke and then add some fuel additive if not fixed. These worked for other people - could be totally different but as a 1 off test don't see any harm.

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Wild and Free

I would lean towards the tranny myself. I have heard of bearings siezing up in the tranny and cause those same symptoms. Could be a seal issue in the converter also. If it is flooding the converter with too much oil it will not drain as fast as it is filled and it will go into a stall tpe of condition and pull the engine down, will be more noticeable with cold oil than warm oil.

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flman

ok - don't think I have seen this one before that I remember. Got my truck back few weeks back with new RV275's and some valve/head work. All good except when I start off in morning it stalls the engine. Basically I start 1st time everytime with 16-17psi. Then I sit for 30 secs @800 rpm and as soon as I engaged 'D' or 'R' (depending on how parked) ... the rpms drop around 400 and the engine stalls. Once the enine is warmed up and running ...... all ok .......... any ideas ???

I repeat, both of my Jeeps with the 5RFE or what ever that tranny is did the same exact thing. Only happened on a cold start as well. Could be a bad check valve in the tranny cooler filter. I highly doubt it is bearings or an engine problem, since it only happens when you first put it in gear.

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JOHNFAK

Hey guys.Thanks for the info. Unsure about bearings,seal for TC or TC pump. Not saying its not that - as obviously I have no idea - but basically how would you check it without just replacing the TC and pump and seals ?? The check valve - interesting - but again not sure. I thought the check valve for the cooler (OE) was in the cooler itself on these trucks - or very close to it. Only thing I could think of here - is I did cut out that line I show in my TOP pic - is it possible there was a check valve there ?? Beyond that - my issue is starting to sound more and more like Jims (SASQUACH). I haven't had the hard starting - although yesterday it did start to happen ........... but it felt more like a battery issue rather than a 'hard' start. I need to keep an eye on this and update. I guess I am leaning to something with a connection or the injectors themselves. Only reason being is that it only started when the injectors were put in. It always drew down on the engine when it went into 'D' - but never to the point it felt like it would stall. Since injectors - now it does. I think jim fixed his with soldering connections and new injectors. So - gonna try the things I have an ability to fix ...... like connections, fuel additive, 2 stroke and see if anything changes. After that - I think I might have to try and get my stock injectors back into the truck ....... but injectors make me a bit nervous - so not sure. Need to check on that check valve - make sure it wasn;t cut out of the tube I cut ......... would be only other thing - anyone know where the 47RE check valve (s) are ?? thx

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Wild and Free

Check valve is in the fitting that screws into the heat exchanger on the side of the block. The back one if I remember right. Nothing but a rubber ball that sits inside the fitting and allows oil to flow forward but prevents it from draining back to the tranny.

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JOHNFAK

k - thanksyeah only line I cut was where the soft line fitting comming form the OE cooler up front joined to the hardline that goes into tranny. Didn't think there was a check valve there - but wasn;'t sure. Going to try and tee up with ISX and replace the injectors to stock and see what happens - plus I can learn to do that part right - and he can play with a realtruck (24v) hahah ........ inbetween then I am going to disconnect my edge, add 2 stroke, and add some fuel additive. Need to recheck my fluid levels - but doubt thats it .................. don't think I am in TC lockup - as when I do move - its not as strong as when I am locked up ....... but still acts like it wants to die.

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flman

Check valve is in the fitting that screws into the heat exchanger on the side of the block. The back one if I remember right. Nothing but a rubber ball that sits inside the fitting and allows oil to flow forward but prevents it from draining back to the tranny.

So, these don't require a check valve in the AT spin on filter? Some TSBs, but does not indicate the stalling like we got with our Jeeps, actually stalling was intermittent, but delayed engagement was more consistent. http://dodgeram.info/tsb/2005/21-016-05.htm http://dodgeram.info/tsb/2006/21-007-06.htm

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JOHNFAK

GUESS WHAT ?? I replaced the battery's - well wife did (see other thread) - NO MORE STALL !! I need to check in morning as this is when I normally start it up - but it doesn't even feel like stalling after sitting for 4 hours !!! WOO HOOSo ??? What the heck ??? :shrug:

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flman

GUESS WHAT ?? I replaced the battery's - well wife did (see other thread) - NO MORE STALL !! I need to check in morning as this is when I normally start it up - but it doesn't even feel like stalling after sitting for 4 hours !!! WOO HOO So ??? What the heck ??? :shrug:

Thats great, hopefully the problem is solved. :thumbup2:

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JOHNFAK

ok - so this morning after its obviously sat for ~ 10-12 hours it did draw down more than yesterday afternoon. But it didn't stall ....... felt like it was somewhere inbetween. It had been consistently stalling prior to the battery change (for about 5 days). So - I need to think/monitor this a little to see if I can pick up/validate its related to electrical/other ? Is there anyway a faulty/damaged component such as alternator/ac compressor could put a LOAD on the engine when moving from 'P' to 'D' ?? I dunno - didn't think so but if it was electrical ?? ......... Also cause I never paid attention before ....... when I drive - the Voltage in cabometer is dead centre 14V. When I start her up its anywhere between 11-12V ....... thinking thats normal ........ but if its not wondering if that could tie to a bad alternator or ac compressor ?? Still not sure how that would pu a load on engine :rolleyes: .... could be clutching at straws here .... Can oreilly's etc do a test on alternator without pulling it ? Or do you have to take it off truck ?

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ISX

If you have some kind of voltmeter (does that chip on your dash have one somewhere? I know scangauge does) you can see if it goes over 13 after it starts. Mine is pretty instant. Turn your blower motor and brights on and that will give you a ~50 amp load and you should still be over 13v. The gauge on the instrument panel is pretty crappy but if it stays over 14v (on the gauge) the whole time then chances are the alternator is fine. A voltmeter would confirm it more though. I wonder if we could tap into the VP power and see what voltage it has the entire time. Do the same thing on the ECM.

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Mopar1973Man

Can oreilly's etc do a test on alternator without pulling it ? Or do you have to take it off truck ?

Lot of places can but you might see if the capable of doing a doide test as well. Some of your stall issue might be a shorted diode and AC wave form leaking though. (Crazy ideas)

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JOHNFAK

I wonder if we could tap into the VP power and see what voltage it has the entire time. Do the same thing on the ECM.

hmm - that would be intersting ................... but along with the voltage side we still have the drop of around 400rpm ?? Is it possible to increase the idle rpm say +100rpm without too much issue ? I know thats not fixing the issue - but would potentially prevent the stall right ?

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