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I thought I did the right thing picking up a pre DEF 2011, but after a failed EGT sensor sidelined my new (to me) 4th Gen I started doing some reading. Some of the forums say the DEF trucks (2013+) are much better for the engine than the pre DEF trucks. Is this true, if so, what are my options to ensure my pre DEF truck make it to 250-300K miles.

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Yes the trucks with DEF have much better reliability with the emissions equipment. The pre-DEF trucks use a LOT of EGR which clogs the intake and causes more frequent regens. 

 

Best thing you can do if you plan to keep it stock is to try to avoid short trips. The harder it works the better it does. 

 

Clean the turbo if you are unsure if it's been cleaned or not. 

 

It would also be a good idea to pull the intake and clean the grid heater and intake area. 

 

Otherwise there isn't much you can do to a stock truck. 

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Just now, jltait said:

@AH64ID So it would seem that reducing the amount of EGR/EGR cycles would go a long way to enhancing reliability to a level on par with 2013+ trucks?


Yes reducing the EGR is a great idea, if you are able to. 
 

Duty cycle helps with that too. 

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The bad side to the EGR... The fact is you just recirculating exhaust back into the air mixture in the cylinder to hopefully reduce the peak flame temperature which will make the NOx less. Bad part id the amount the of exhaust used and the amount of plugging of the manifold is a big issue.Tuner do exist on turning off the EGR software to prevent the use of the EGR all together without removing all that system. 

 

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I appreciate the insight and help. This site claims the EGR can simply be disconnected with no ill effects, not even a CEL on 2010-2011 trucks. Can anyone verify this for me. Apparently 2012 and up trip a CEL, then over time go into de-rate mode. I'm leery to disconnect without being sure, some  have had to go to the dealer to get out of de-rate mode. I'd get a programmer to reduce the EGR cycles, but it's simply not in the budget right now, probably not for a good long time.

 

https://www.igotacummins.com/threads/7046-A-newbie-s-guide-to-4th-Gen-Cummins-Thread-Summaries-knowledge-base

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I could probably deal with the CEL, as long as it runs normally(hopefully better). I have been using my OBDLink to monitor the EGT sensors and DPF differential, so I would be able to catch other codes with it. I think I will give that a try. Ultimately it seems I will need a programmer, so any input on what will be best to reduce EGR cycles partially or completely would be great.

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I've been looking at this from different angles. I'm wondering if I simply removed the butterfly from the throttle valve, but left everything connected electrically, if that would substantially reduced the amount of EGR without throwing a CEL. It's my understanding that the throttle valve closes to help bring flow in from the EGR. It would seem to me that without a bufferfly to close, the engine would continue to ingest more fresh air and less EGR. Does this make any sense, or am I sounding like I'm smoking crack? I changed the oil a few hundred miles ago, and it was literally blacker than the ace of spades within days. My 2nd gen looks as good or better with 5-6k miles, dis-heartening.

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Most modern engines turn the oil black very quick, even ones that have EGR missing. It’s also a function of modern oil making soot stay suspended and harder to filter.. but that also means it does less damage. 
 

 

I’ve heard you can build a block off plate for the EGR tube too. 

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I suspect my egr may be starting to clog, or something to that effect, on the 2012. Right at 90k. Has started showing high NOx codes periodically in the last 2 years. 

 

The general operation of egr's is in the idle-cruising throttle range. At higher throttle, they typically are closed for more air/power. 

 

Disconnecting/deleting the throttle valve will throw a code, don't know if it will go into limp. The whole system goes through a self check.

 

Operation happen when:

coolant must be above 140

aftertreatment must be in 'normal' mode

 

system test happens when:

must be running at least 2 minutes

has to be fairly steady highway speed for ~25min (it doesn't say specifically but most are in the 35-45 range for a lower threshold)

coolant must be above 180 for at least 1 minute.

aftertreatment must be in 'normal' mode

 

May give you some insight as well.

Emissions control reset.pdf

 

 

Edited by That Guy
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Like I no longer even consider deletes anymore. I've found a few tuners that delete the software but leaves all the hardware in place. It will reduce the regen cycles amounts and the EGR is shut off. Why bother with removing all the smog stuff to get hassled later for trying to sell deleted truck. Here in Idaho you cannot trade in a deleted truck. 

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On 9/9/2020 at 9:59 PM, That Guy said:

I suspect my egr may be starting to clog, or something to that effect, on the 2012. Right at 90k. Has started showing high NOx codes periodically in the last 2 years. 

 

The general operation of egr's is in the idle-cruising throttle range. At higher throttle, they typically are closed for more air/power. 

 

Disconnecting/deleting the throttle valve will throw a code, don't know if it will go into limp. The whole system goes through a self check.

 

Operation happen when:

coolant must be above 140

aftertreatment must be in 'normal' mode

 

system test happens when:

must be running at least 2 minutes

has to be fairly steady highway speed for ~25min (it doesn't say specifically but most are in the 35-45 range for a lower threshold)

coolant must be above 180 for at least 1 minute.

aftertreatment must be in 'normal' mode

 

May give you some insight as well.

Emissions control reset.pdf 169.83 kB · 0 downloads

Thanks, this has some good information, for sure!

 

Quote

Disconnecting/deleting the throttle valve will throw a code, don't know if it will go into limp. The whole system goes through a self check.

 

It's my understanding that 2012's will go into Limp/de-rate, but the 2010-11's will set a CEL worst case.

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Like I no longer even consider deletes anymore. I've found a few tuners that delete the software but leaves all the hardware in place. It will reduce the regen cycles amounts and the EGR is shut off. Why bother with removing all the smog stuff to get hassled later for trying to sell deleted truck. Here in Idaho you cannot trade in a deleted truck. 

 

This Is what I want to accomplish, Leave everything in place, but reduce or completely eliminate the amount of EGR going into the engine. I wish I could come up with some solid information on a way to do this without spending on a programmer. I have read that the plunger in the EGR valve can be removed. I wonder if I did that and removed the throttle valve butterfly if that would do it, or if I would cause more harm than good. I don't mind spending a reasonable amount of money on a programmer, but I can't right now. 

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If you disabled the system in the software, it would be fine. If it isn't then the computer is not only actuating the valves but looking for a change in the emissions levels when it does its thing. If it doesn't see the levels change according to its predetermined limits, it throws codes.

 

I'm still considering deleting my 2012. I have the room for the parts I take off to sit in the attic of the barn for later use if need be, don't intend to sell the truck though.

Edited by That Guy
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@That GuyI am pretty sure you are correct about 2012's and up, but according to the forum I linked earlier in this thread, 2010-2011's can have the EGR disconnected with a CEL worst case, not even a CEL best case. I just wish I could find a detailed how to. Does the EGR Valve, EGR Solenoid, and Throttle body all get disconnected, or just the valve. Also, I see different opinions on how this affects Regen cycles, some say it helps due to better burn in the cylinder, others say it will regen more due to the soot that is re-burned now going through the DPF. It's all very confusing:ahhh:

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4 hours ago, That Guy said:

Try it. Worst case, plug it back in?

 

Try the egr and throttle valve. 

 

I want to, but still trying to overcome my fear of setting a hard code that will require dealer intervention, even though I've been told it won't.

I actually have been thinking that the solution that may prevent a ton of CEL codes, would be to take out the throttle valve butterfly, leaving it plugged in to actuate, but not restrict intake air without the throttle blade in place. Then make a restrictor plate to sandwich at the intake manifold under the EGR valve. The intent would be to limit the EGR flow substantially, but allow enough through for the system to think it's working. 

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By just removing the throttle blade, you are affecting how much the egr will work greatly. On my little obd reader, Ive seen as much as 8-10 inches of vacuum.

 

As I understand it, on a 2011, disconnecting the egr wont throw a code. However, according to that service bulletin I found, if it goes through a test cycle, it may throw a NOx or low egr flow code. That code it may throw can be reset with the most of the basic scanners.

 

A OBD dongle off amazon can be had for ~$10. A copy of torque pro is like $5. For $15, you will have a decent code reader (deleter) and a data logger. You can also upload some custom flashes to the various computers in the truck. I'm unsure if it could possibly tune, but I have reprogrammed my Prius to get rid of the annoying back up beeper (it's in the cabin) and the passenger seat belt warning on account of my backpack will set it off. I have heard of others setting up various functions like rolling down windows by the key fob and such.

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I do have OBDLink, I did  a few searches and found that the newer version that I have is supposed to be on par with Torque Pro, but please correct me if I am wrong.  I should be able to reset any soft codes. 

11 hours ago, That Guy said:

By just removing the throttle blade, you are affecting how much the egr will work greatly. On my little obd reader, Ive seen as much as 8-10 inches of vacuum.

It would be interesting if I could figure out how to monitor the throttle blade position with OBDLink. I am now set up to monitor the MAP, so I should see the vacuum. I have already been monitoring the EGT sensors, o2 sensors, Exhaust pressure, EGR Duty Cycle, EGR Temperature, and DPF differential.

 

11 hours ago, That Guy said:

You can also upload some custom flashes to the various computers in the truck. I'm unsure if it could possibly tune, but I have reprogrammed my Prius to get rid of the annoying back up beeper (it's in the cabin) and the passenger seat belt warning on account of my backpack will set it off. I have heard of others setting up various functions like rolling down windows by the key fob and such.

I had no Idea that modules could be flashes with an OBD dongle, very interesting!

 

I think I will continue to gather more data, then disconnect the EGR, possibly plug the crossover with the Dorman #555-020 freeze plug as outlined on CF. But this is all likely a few weeks to a month out. I drive the truck very little since camping season is over.

 

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Well, I couldn't help but try it. I disconnected the EGR valve. CEL came up as soon as I started it. Here is what OBDLink showed when I checked the trouble codes. So it would seem that the data out there that 2010-2011 trucks don't set a CEL for an EGR valve disconnected are a myth, or at least for this 2011 it is. I was pretty skeptical about that, now I know.

 

image.png.ae2bc0eec780f613209e4f25faa6a5af.png

 

 

 

EGR Duty Cycle stayed at zero, which I expected. I had also added a PID for "Relative Throttle A Position"(unfortunately I did not get a screen shot of value). I think that is the Throttle body the regulates the EGR/fresh air ratio. Previously it moved around some and stayed at a relatively low value (20-50% IIRC), but after disconnecting the EGR, it stayed at 90% all of the time. So I think once the EGR is MIA, the throttle valve is commanded to full fresh air, or nearly full fresh air position. EGR Temperature was way lower as one might expect. Normally its around 200*, makes sense considering it should be staying closed. Apparently the MAP sensor I added isn't correct. As shown, that value stayed at zero the whole time. EGT sensors were in the low 600's, previously they would run low 700's, so it seems the EGT's drop a bit. I meant to check intake air temp, but forgot about that, never paid attention, or snapped a screenshot for that.

It ran normal, seemed to be getting a little bit better fuel economy than previous. It did seem to need slightly less throttle to maintain speed, but maybe that was a placebo effect, lol. I plan to keep it unplugged, report back how things go with more miles. I only drove 5 or 6 testing today.

 

image.png.e75bdc2d8b638cee61388d893252e3e6.png

 

 

Oh, and it seems the exhaust pressure was a bit higher, at least at idle. Likely since it's no longer going into the intake, and all has to go out the exhaust. Previously, at idle it seemed as though there was a little bit of a vacuum being generated at the exhaust pressure sensor, now there is a pressure. For the record, I didn't get much data on exhaust pressure prior to disconnecting, so it may not be very helpful information.

 

Edited by jltait
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I did my flashing with an excel sheet that addressed specific values and addresses within the computers with simple true/false 1/0 statements. It was outlined in PriusChat which ones to do. I haven't found a full list of what all is possible with it, but I did also disable the outside noise maker that makes a electrical grinding noise to alert pedestrians when in full ev mode. Not exactly needed in the country.

 

On the MAP sensor, I have found that sometimes the little dongles/apps don't always read things 100% correctly. It may be under a different address or the app for some reason can't interpret it. Take it with a grain of salt.

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The biggest downside of having the CEL light on: the remote start shuts back down after a few seconds of run time. :(

IAT temp is much lower. It wasn't stabilized here, usually runs close to ambient air temps, without EGR. With EGR was usually around 125* IIRC. I still feel that the throttle is more responsive that when it was hooked up. I would like input on what programmers, and who's custom programming (possibly canned program) will be the best route to go. I have an early 2011, so ultimately I would like to upgrade to the 2011.5 and up power level, with a tow tune that is as stock now to protect the converter.

 

image.png.9c0b9026cc5b4e811c0fe4ed1d25b490.png

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