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APPS TPS failure expectation


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Posted (edited)

Hey folks I got a low voltage code and replaced the TPS APPS with spring etc from Napa.  I did not adjust it, tonight I got some cutting out on the highway.

I've saw the description for diagnostic on alternator, ECM, etc.  

My question is should I worry about needing to drive 200 miles tomorrow hauling a light trailer?  I have my four year old with me and want to make sure it will likely be annoying not catastrophic.

We stopped and I pulled the battery cables and turned the key, reset apps and got no more cutting out the last hour of our drive tonight.

Thanks

Edited by beautifulisblue
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It would have been better if you got the Timbo APPS since that one shows better reliability and cost around $200.

 

I'm suggesting you postpone the long trip until you know it's running OK. Run around town shorter runs until you know for certain. Clean battery posts and other grounds and connections since it doesn't hurt to always be improving the electrical system on these trucks. The single most vulnerable ground is the one you can't see easily. It's down low on the fender flange (flat part) in front of and below the drivers battery. There is another just above on the side, in front of the battery just about belly height. Two long extensions will get the one down low and sometimes a section of wire harness has covered it up so you got to look under those wires down there. Thats an important one to check because of the corrosive location and being main grounds for the PDC.

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Timbos APPS would of been a much better solution. 

 

If its repaired correctly the error code should be erased and not returned. The only thing that will trip the APPS error codes is voltage that is out of range. Once it goes out of range the dead pedal occurs and the ECM ignores invalid signals till a known good signal is seen.

 

I've been using the Timbo's APPS for over a very long time now and never replaced it yet nor had any throttle related issues. 5 years of travelling for @MoparMom(Rest in Peace) but I did over 250k miles hauling her back and forth to dialysis for 5 years every other day (Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday) and doing 250 a miles a trip taking about 13 to 14 hours each day. 

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Posted (edited)

Thanks, my main question was will a new TPS flat fail, or can I keep resetting if I need to.

I'm already half way into my trip.

 

I bought the Napa as I was pulling a horse trailer for a backcountry packing trip at the time it started acting up.

Edited by beautifulisblue
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Posted (edited)

Both. 

  • It could flat fail. Again if P0121, P0122, or P0123 then yes it could fail.
  • Resetting the APPS won't do anything to fix the issues. All you doing is setting the upper and lower limits on the ECM

Again if the APPS falls out of range to low or too high volts it can and possible quit working till APPS returns back to normal voltage range. As for resetting it not going to fix a voltage out of range issue. Regardless...

 

NOTE: The dead pedal is a bit of code added to the ECM so if the APPS failed at too high of voltage for some reason you don't have a WOT throttle truck that is out of control. When APPS voltage goes out of range (too high or too low) the ECM is disconnected from the APPS logically and left at a idle state so the truck is not in a runaway condition. So yes its very possible to be left with no throttle control possibly.

 

Error codes and info...

 

Edited by Mopar1973Man
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Posted (edited)

Thanks, currently no codes showing up.  P1022 was there code with the old TPS

42 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Both. 

  • It could flat fail. Again if P0121, P0122, or P0123 then yes it could fail.
  • Resetting the APPS won't do anything to fix the issues. All you doing is setting the upper and lower limits on the ECM

Again if the APPS falls out of range to low or too high volts it can and possible quit working till APPS returns back to normal voltage range. As for resetting it not going to fix a voltage out of range issue. Regardless...

 

NOTE: The dead pedal is a bit of code added to the ECM so if the APPS failed at too high of voltage for some reason you don't have a WOT throttle truck that is out of control. When APPS voltage goes out of range (too high or too low) the ECM is disconnected from the APPS logically and left at a idle state so the truck is not in a runaway condition. So yes its very possible to be left with no throttle control possibly.

 

Error codes and info...

 

Got .006 on the battery, .22-.24 on the alternator.  I'll try an alternator. 

Edited by beautifulisblue
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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, beautifulisblue said:

Will pull and clean grounds when I get there.  

 

ECM, PCM and VP44 is the passenger ground terminal there is no body grounds for these three modules. They all use the passenger side battery cable directly so just cleaning the battery terimnals is enough. Scrubing the grounds all over the body is not going to improve the ECM, PCM or VP44 being they do not get ground the a body terminal only the passenger side cable. 

 

 

Hence the W-T ground wire mod... My new ECM and VP44 ground... No longer makes that long run to the passenger battery (4 feet shorter!)

image.png

 

Edited by Mopar1973Man
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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

ECM, PCM and VP44 is the passenger ground terminal there is no body grounds for these three modules. They all use the passenger side battery cable directly so just cleaning the battery terimnals is enough. Scrubing the grounds all over the body is not going to improve the ECM, PCM or VP44 being they do not get ground the a body terminal only the passenger side cable. 

 

 

Hence the W-T ground wire mod... My new ECM and VP44 ground... No longer makes that long run to the passenger battery (4 feet shorter!)

image.png

 

Thanks, looks like the alternator is out of spec.  I was able to use a pretty high-quality meter. I'll start there and add ground when I get home

Edited by beautifulisblue
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1 minute ago, beautifulisblue said:

Thanks, looks like the alternator is out of spec.

 

If the alternator is out of spec replace it. Make sure to have the new alternator tested before leaving the store I've had reman'ed alternator score worse than the current failed alternator. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, test your replacement before leaving the store. 

 

3 minutes ago, beautifulisblue said:

I'll start there and add ground when I get home

It not about adding a ground but seperating the alternator charge lead AWAY from the ECM and VP44 ground which in the factory lay out the AC noise just bleeds over to the ground leads heading to the modules. This is why the W-T ground mod works because the alternator charge line is hooked to the passenger battery. Then the grounds for the ECM and VP44 are hooked to the driver side battery and these two wire are no longer near each other. This out right stops the AC noise bleed over. 

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4 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

If the alternator is out of spec replace it. Make sure to have the new alternator tested before leaving the store I've had reman'ed alternator score worse than the current failed alternator. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, test your replacement before leaving the store. 

 

It not about adding a ground but seperating the alternator charge lead AWAY from the ECM and VP44 ground which in the factory lay out the AC noise just bleeds over to the ground leads heading to the modules. This is why the W-T ground mod works because the alternator charge line is hooked to the passenger battery. Then the grounds for the ECM and VP44 are hooked to the driver side battery and these two wire are no longer near each other. This out right stops the AC noise bleed over. 

Appreciate the help, didn't see this before I put in a new one, so no bench test.  Napa treats me good on returns though.

100 miles down and acting right.  160 to go.  I'll give it a deep dive when I get home.

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5 hours ago, IBMobile said:

In conjunction with the W-T ground wire mod you might want to do this also.

 

PCM Ground Splice Repair - Electrical - Mopar1973Man's Dodge Cummins Forum

https://mopar1973man.com/cummins/articles.html/24-valve-2nd-generation_50/51_engine/electrical/pcm-ground-splice-repair-r675/

 

 

You gotta love the Dodge OE wire splices. I don't know where they came up with that idea but it has to be the absolute WORST way to splice wires together. The W-T ground wire mod exposed this flaw and it's something almost anyone can do with a few hand tools. I did both mods even though I had no issues. Don't forget the "fuse mod" from alt to PCM. Another easy fix that could save you problems down the road. Good luck!

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  • 1 month later...

Well, I'm gonna start on this mod.  Can I do this without removing radiator hose etc...?  Got my first dead pedal after a few thousand miles of towing and two months.

We're currently moving from Southern Nevada to Central Idaho been hauling trailers up and down the last two months.  And I already moved my shop up to Utah when this happened so I'm down to the bare minimum on tools.  I'm also loading the final trailers and getting the house ready to sell this week.

I have new batteries and new battery terminals.  

I'm pulling code p1063 and the codes for the glow plug relays.

On 7/9/2021 at 7:22 AM, Mopar1973Man said:

 

ECM, PCM and VP44 is the passenger ground terminal there is no body grounds for these three modules. They all use the passenger side battery cable directly so just cleaning the battery terimnals is enough. Scrubing the grounds all over the body is not going to improve the ECM, PCM or VP44 being they do not get ground the a body terminal only the passenger side cable. 

 

 

Hence the W-T ground wire mod... My new ECM and VP44 ground... No longer makes that long run to the passenger battery (4 feet shorter!)

image.png

 

 

Edited by beautifulisblue
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Don't go with another factory APPS as they aren't built well and cost around 500 bucks. The Timbo Apps is far less expensive and more reliable. They are sold here in the store.

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7 minutes ago, JAG1 said:

Don't go with another factory APPS as they aren't built well and cost around 500 bucks. The Timbo Apps is far less expensive and more reliable. They are sold here in the store.

Thanks, i was just on his site, but I'm not sure I'd get one before I need to leave with a trailer Saturday morning...  One from Napa I could swap with the warranty if it is out of spec at least

Edited by beautifulisblue
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9 hours ago, JAG1 said:

Don't go with another factory APPS as they aren't built well and cost around 500 bucks. The Timbo Apps is far less expensive and more reliable.

 

More and more that I study Cummins parts the more I'm finding out Cummins doesn't make anything, top it off most parts are produced by 3rd party manufactures. Like thermostats made by Mr. Gasket/Holley then Cummins head gaskets produced by BLK. @JAG1is correct that Timbo's APPS is a high quality part not made by Cummins but completely electronic free and completely mechanical in design. Also be aware of cheap China knock offs there is several that look like a Cummins part but price is super low.

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1 hour ago, beautifulisblue said:

Would a failing VP44 pump give me similar symptoms over a 5-month period and probably 8 or 9,000 mi that occurring every two months?

run some 2 stroke oil in the tank. American fuel has too low lubricity rating for the injection pump. I'd run it a bit rich at this point such as two quarts per tankful. Plus good fuel flow and pressure ( some will argue this point), I believe higher fuel pressures (19-21 at idle) helps 'float' the timing piston in the cylinder causing less wear.

 

Right here @IBMobile has to put on hip waiters and get on a ladder from tall tales from Jag1 but, I still believe good fuel pressure is important.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

More and more that I study Cummins parts the more I'm finding out Cummins doesn't make anything, top it off most parts are produced by 3rd party manufactures. Like thermostats made by Mr. Gasket/Holley then Cummins head gaskets produced by BLK. @JAG1is correct that Timbo's APPS is a high quality part not made by Cummins but completely electronic free and completely mechanical in design. Also be aware of cheap China knock offs there is several that look like a Cummins part but price is super low.

I found a good name brand 'Garrett' metal detector identicle in color and shape selling for half price. A reviewer wrote in and warned everyone to beware as it was a cheap Chinese knock off. 

Edited by JAG1
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9 minutes ago, JAG1 said:

run some 2 stroke oil in the tank. American fuel has too low lubricity rating for the injection pump. I'd run it a bit rich at this point such as two quarts per tankful. Plus good fuel flow and pressure ( some will argue this point), I believe higher fuel pressures (19-21 at idle) helps 'float' the timing piston in the cylinder causing less wear.

 

Right here @IBMobile has to put on hip waiters and get on a ladder from tall tales from Jag1 but, I still believe good fuel pressure is important.

 

 

 

I found a good name brand 'Garrett' metal detector identicle in color and shape selling for half price. A reviewer wrote in and warned everyone to beware as it was a cheap Chinese knock off. 

Thanks, 

I might break down and see if I can get a good shop to look at it since I need to drive up to Idaho on Saturday with a trailer.

I get about 17 to 18 PSI at idle on fuel pressure.

Edited by beautifulisblue
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