Hydrogen Fuel Cell...

[LorenS]

On 1/4/2023 at 9:27 AM, JAG1 said:

are there any bad trade offs to hydrogen?

At this point we still need to get the hydrogen from somewhere, which requires power to separate the hydrogen from water, etc. It's great for storing potential energy when the sun is shining and the wind is blowing versus shutting off the wind turbines so as to not overproduce electricity. Hydrogen has to be stored at high pressure and is apparently VERY difficult to keep where you want it; being the smallest atom it tends to leak. So if you park your hydrogen pickup for a month, the tank may be empty when you want to start it. Energy density isn't very good, so like batteries you either have dismal range or a big penalty in weight.

The engines still produce NOx, so there's an emissions system to deal with.

 

There was a good article about it in the TDR magazine a couple issues back, by Kevin Cameron.

[JAG1]

Thank you LorenS, good information expressing another tradeoff. 'No such thing as a free lunch' as it were!

[Mopar1973Man]

Take in account every biofuel of any type has less energy than petroleum (gasoline or diesel). When they introduced ethanol to gasoline it reduced the BTU's of the fuel. Same as when Oregon mandated biodiesel to B15 IIRC (125,000 BTU's per gallon) it has less BTU's than straight diesel (135,000 BTU's per gallon). So I'm not a believer in any alternative energy fuels. 

[Andyba20]

Again, these things happen when partisan politics combined with gutless politicians get in bed with money driven “scientists”. The result is often a mandated solution that either does nothing or makes things worse…the market will work Itself out, we don’t need the push. I can point to dozens of examples, and the mandates will just keep piling on, it’ll never be enough for the wacko activist crowd. Like I pointed out a few weeks back, some states are requiring EPA approved wood burning stoves…you will never be green enough until you’re pushing up daisies. Every day you live, every breath you take leaves a carbon footprint. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Andyba20

[LorenS]

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Take in account every biofuel of any type has less energy than petroleum

Hydrogen isn't a bio fuel, but yes.  Of course if we were worried solely about BTUs per pound we'd be running #6 instead of #2.

I found a paper written by a college grad student who ran experiments with HHO on a diesel generator.  I was mildly surprised at first that he showed the HHO mix actually reduced brake-specific-fuel-consumption of the engine, even when the HHO was generated by grid power - then as I read, I saw absolutely no mention of tuning the engine for HHO (like injection timing).  So, as @Mopar1973Manhas explained before in regards to over-advancing the timing and thus getting negative torque, I wonder if that's what happened here, too.
Pure hypothesis, but I think the HHO mixture COULD have increased the rate of burn so much that the cylinder pressure rose too quickly, creating negative torque.  I would love a follow up experiment where they optimize fuel timing.  And I wouldn't dream of using the onboard electrical to make the hydrogen, but more like a small bottle that could be produced by wind/solar/etc. when the production exceeds the demand.  I wouldn't bet money on it being feasible, but it would be great if that type of thing (optimized) could cut emissions.  I like clean air and water as much as a tree hugger, just am willing to give up less to get incremental improvements!

[Mopar1973Man]

1 hour ago, Andyba20 said:

Again, these things happen when partisan politics combined with gutless politicians get in bed with money driven “scientists”. The result is often a mandated solution that either does nothing or makes things worse…the market will work Itself out, we don’t need the push. I can point to dozens of examples, and the mandates will just keep piling on, it’ll never be enough for the wacko activist crowd. Like I pointed out a few weeks back, some states are requiring EPA approved wood burning stoves…you will never be green enough until you’re pushing up daisies. Every day you live, every breath you takes leaves a carbon footprint. 

Then why is USFS burning hundreds of thousands of acres of forests that destroyed all the trees, a lumber industry, price of lumber is high. But every forest fire produces more CO2 in one hour than my truck will in its entire life time. 

 

747 Boeing consumes 5 gallons of JET-A fuel for every mile in the air. Jets are polluting more than any diesel truck.

Propane is just a good at promoting early ignition on a diesel hence why the propane has to have a regulator and then some sort of control valve to dust the intake with the right amount propane to what the throttle is able applied. Then this would be a optimal setup but I don't know of any propane kits that are this in a package.

[JAG1]

8 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Then why is USFS burning hundreds of thousands of acres of forests that destroyed all the trees, a lumber industry, price of lumber is high. But every forest fire produces more CO2 in one hour than my truck will in its entire life time. 

 

747 Boeing consumes 5 gallons of JET-A fuel for every mile in the air. Jets are polluting more than any diesel truck.

Propane is just a good at promoting early ignition on a diesel hence why the propane has to have a regulator and then some sort of control valve to dust the intake with the right amount propane to what the throttle is able applied. Then this would be a optimal setup but I don't know of any propane kits that are this in a package.

It's more than that Mike, a 747 burns approx. one gallon each second. I believe this is correct and each take off burns 5,000 gallons on average so an 8 hour flight across country uses 33,800 gallons. what I don't like is the misty vaporized sewage they drop right over everyone's nice country farms and towns. May be the reason so many are getting sick, covid flu lung problems. Especially out here in Oregon with the hospitals full and no beds available now from just lung problems they are seeing.

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by JAG1

[LorenS]

9 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

747 Boeing consumes 5 gallons of JET-A fuel for every mile in the air.

With 400-500 people on board, that ain't bad. That's like a vehicle carrying 4-5 people and their luggage getting 20 MPG. Better than a typical Suburban, worse than a minivan.

[Andyba20]

16 minutes ago, LorenS said:

With 400-500 people on board, that ain't bad. That's like a vehicle carrying 4-5 people and their luggage getting 20 MPG. Better than a typical Suburban, worse than a minivan.

There’s no question EV when adjusted for KhW to gasoline consumption can go further…I Tesla get like 112 miles to the gallon when KWH are converted to fuel. The issue is how the batteries are being manufactured. It’s an extreme environmental looting. 10,000s of gallons of fresh water used  just to make one battery. By the time the forced child labor gets the battery buildt and a Tesla lands on the dealer lot, just the manufacturing involved in producing that car has created the carbon equivalent of a modern gas engine that’s has driven 22,500 worth of co2 emmisioms. Not to mention all the cobalt and silver need in these batteries…China holds the world largest strategic reserves of those precious metals , so we are now emboldening out greatest modern threats by giving them even more money. The whole thing is an abomination.’ None of it makes sense until they’re a real a few elites who are wanting to take more and more freedom and more and more control,. Fight back in this guys. 

[JAG1]

Nice post @Andyba20!

[Doubletrouble]

 Until the technology is much much better and reliability issues sorted along with all the problems involved with the production of EV's I will stick with what I know, the internal combustion engine. Whether it be diesel or gasoline its tried and true. Gas milage has come a long way in the past 20+ years with both. Reliability and power have increased as well. 

 I realize that one day in the future the IC engine will most likely be obsolete but in my lifetime I don't see that being the case. As they introduce and improve new EV's and other alternatives along with them they will become more common place with the upcoming generations and gain more of a following I'm sure. We have seem this with other advancements through our lifetime. From encyclopedias to Google, carbs to fuel injection, land lines to mobile phones and so on.

 As for me, my old school, non politically correct, set in my ways, stubborn, unwilling to accept radical change generation X ***, I will keep my oil/gas burners.

 I'm still salty that we never got the jetpack to fly around town like they said we'd have by now. 

[JAG1]

I had not driven in over a week. For this old guy it seemed like a month since it so easy to forget but, I was thinking about this the other day... why give up your independence and put a ball and chain around your neck with an EV? My diesel purred so nice how could I ever that it up? think about running the heater blower, lights, wipers etc. all lowering your chances of making it somewhere. I realize electronics can keep track of how many usable amp hours are left in batteries which lessens your risk of attempting to range too far, getting stuck an all but, also I've read how inaccurate/ difficult to make accurate those meters are. So when batteries start to deteriorate in a couple years you have a bit more stress under you when going somewhere more than short jaunts. I'll stay with my purring road cat

[Max Tune]

So happy that I'm 64, not 24.

 

Electric will be fine for probably most of the yoots today. They don't travel or just go for a drive out in the country. If it's not in their phone, they have little interest. 

[LorenS]

9 hours ago, Andyba20 said:

Tesla get like 112 miles to the gallon when KWH are converted to fuel.

Distribution efficiency of electricity is on around 35%, right? So factor that in, and cost it takes to get fuel to the gas/diesel station for IC engines. I still think my 38 MPG Passat TDI (36.5-43 MPG records) is pretty good. And at 210k miles I'm not replacing a giant battery pack. May need a turbo and injector freshening soon, less than $2k, and should go another 100k or more without enriching China or enslaving anyone.

[IBMobile]

3 hours ago, Max Tune said:

most of the yoots today

I didn't know you were from Brooklyn.

[Andyba20]

10 hours ago, JAG1 said:

Nice post @Andyba20!

I appreciate it Jag, but I have to admit, the Ambien must’ve hit me hard last night as I was typing that. Wish I could have that one back. 

[LorenS]

Yoots. Great movie!

[Doubletrouble]

 My cousin Vinny! Great flick!

[LorenS]

Ha ha ha! Link to the "Two Yoots" scene with Hermann Munster as the judge. Had me rolling with laughter!

https://youtu.be/ZBk3dJNSQks

Edited January 8, 2023 by LorenS