Looking for issues before buying tuner

[Zach B]

Hey all, hope some of you who know these trucks better than I do can help me out here. So I've gotten to the point I believe the truck is running the way it should and I am ready to buy the Quadzilla for it, but I wanted to pick your brains here just to see if I missed anything or if there's other things I can check. My main goal is to have the truck running 100% correctly stock before adding the tuner so that way I can maximize the potential of the tuner. I didn't want to throw the tuner on when the truck isn't running to its full potential in stock form. The truck is mechanically running perfect, what I'm looking for is things to test and check electrical wise. I'll list what I have already done to the truck electrical wise and you can let me know what all I have missed and need to do. 

 

Ecm has been replaced with a good running one, no codes (came from 99 auto, mine is 98 auto)

WT Ground Wire Mod (AC noise averages around .03-.035 at idle which seems a tad bit high)

New Rectifier and brushes in Alternator 

PCM protection Mod

New Battery Cable terminals, copper lugs crimped and heat shrunk for weathertight seal

Cleaned all block and chassis grounds running from batteries

 

I think the only thing I have never messed with is the apps sensor, never tested or adjusted it. My throttle position never reads 0% at idle, usually reads 7-8% and at full throttle sometimes reads 73% and other times 100%. Not really sure what the deal is there. Otherwise, I believe I have hit it all. The AC noise seems higher than most people I've read about but not sure how to get it down any further since I've done all the mods. Very rarely the Converter will jump in and out of lockup, not sure if that could be related to my AC noise being in the .03 range. 

 

After reading everything I've done does anyone have any input, suggestions, or ideas on anything else I should check or test so I can ensure my truck is running to its full potential stock? Hopefully I'm all good to go, but if anyone has anything I should do or I have missed please let me know, I'm not looking to band aid an underpowered truck from electrical issues with a tuner. 

[Mopar1973Man]

Have your alternator bench tested and see what your getting for full load ac ripple. After the W-T ground mod typically knock it below 0.015 AC Volts.

 

Might have your batteries tested might have a weak cell or internal short that is pulling too much current causing higher AC ripple.

[Zach B]

Alright ill find where I can go get my alternator bench tested around my area and see if they can tell me what its getting for full load AC ripple. Like I said, I rebuilt the alternator with a new rectifier (from amazon so take that for what it is) and brushes and bearings from genos garage. I would think it'd be okay after that but who knows. As far as batteries go, they are pretty old, I think 7 years. I've never had them tested, but the truck never has issues starting, always starts right up no matter how long it sits and whenever I have the terminals unhooked and test them with the multimeter they always read good voltage. I know that isn't a load test, but they haven't given me any bad battery symptoms yet. I'd rather not replace the batteries if I don't have too but if I need to get that AC noise down Ill get them load tested and see what story it tells. 

 

As far as my APPS reading I mentioned in the original post, is that most likely related to the AC noise or is that a seperate issue, like a bad APPS? As far as I know the apps sensor is original (320k miles.) I have tried "relearning" the APPS before by unhooking batteries and leaving key on for a few hours, and it always goes back to reading 0-100% for the throttle position. After some time though it usually goes back to reading 7-8% at idle and 71-73% at WOT. I don't feel a difference in WOT engine performance when its reading 100% versus the 73%, but maybe its such a small difference I just cant feel it. 

[IBMobile]

7 hours ago, Zach B said:

As far as I know the apps sensor is original (320k miles.)

I think that apps is worn out and you can't teach an old dog new tricks with a reset.     

 Go to the Mopar1973Man store and see if Mike and help you out with a new Timbo apps 

 

In my truck I've done all the mods for the charging/PCM/ECM systems along with new alternator brushes and diodes.   The AC voltage measured at the B+ terminal on the back of the alternator is ~ .025-.03V.  The truck has never had a convertor lock/unlock problem. 

 

If you're going to pull your alternator for a bench test, then it wouldn't hurt to pull the batteries, at the same time, for a load test.   

[JAG1]

Timbo apps is the way to go... much less expensive more reliable 

[Zach B]

21 hours ago, IBMobile said:

I think that apps is worn out and you can't teach an old dog new tricks with a reset.     

 Go to the Mopar1973Man store and see if Mike and help you out with a new Timbo apps 

 

In my truck I've done all the mods for the charging/PCM/ECM systems along with new alternator brushes and diodes.   The AC voltage measured at the B+ terminal on the back of the alternator is ~ .025-.03V.  The truck has never had a convertor lock/unlock problem. 

 

If you're going to pull your alternator for a bench test, then it wouldn't hurt to pull the batteries, at the same time, for a load test.   

I would agree with you, theres a good chance she is worn out. I will head to the store and see if I can pick one up, I had no idea he had a store with this website too. Learn something new every day lol. I'll look for a thread on APPS replacement here for when I pick up a new apps, that way I can make sure its installed right and I'm not losing any power from an incorrect install.

 

I think I've hit all the mods for charging/PCM/ECM systems but I'm honestly not sure. I've done the ones I know of which is everything I listed in the first post but is there any I'm missing? Only issue I've had since doing the W/T mod and other mods I listed was the occasional converter lock/unlock, but its so few and far between it didn't really concern me. Before the mod I couldn't go anywhere without it doing it, but now sometimes it'll do it 2 or 3 times while driving and then be done. Other times it will be a tad bit more persistent but eventually stops. Probably related to my AC voltage still averaging in the .035V range at idle, which would be more at highway speed and cause it to still give me that occasional lock/unlock correct?

 

That was the plan was to test batteries and alternator at the same time. I know where to take the batteries to be load tested but I need to figure out where to take my alternator for a bench test here locally. When its bench tested will they test full load AC ripple or do I have to specifically ask for that? I've never had one done before so not sure if the AC ripple is always tested or if that's something that only certain places can/will do.  

[IBMobile]

4 minutes ago, Zach B said:

When its bench tested will they test full load AC ripple or do I have to specifically ask for that? I've never had one done before so not sure if the AC ripple is always tested or if that's something that only certain places can/will do.  

If you take it to a place like O Reilly auto parts they will only be able to volt/amp test the alternator.  It's best to take it to a shop that rebuilds starters and alternator for a more Indepth test; call first to be sure they can do that type of test.  

[Zach B]

Copy, I’ll do some looking around and find somewhere locally I can get it tested, hopefully that’s the issue so I am replace and be done with chasing issues and move on to buying a Quadzilla

[Mopar1973Man]

Sadly the store will remain down for now being if I make too much income will prevent me from getting assistance for my cancer.

 

APPS sensor look up Timbos APPS and he is still selling the sensors.

 

As long as you know for fact the alternator is working correctly and test out good for low AC noise then you should be good.

 

Another thing don't scrub all the paint off steel to expose raw metal for grounds this will enhance ground failure being that exposed metal will oxidize faster being exposed make sure to paint all exposed metal before mounting the ring terminal just like factory did. 

[Mopar1973Man]

It might help a bunch just buying the Quadzilla because then you can see all the live data from the Cummins CANBus connector and verify all data is correct by doing your own external measurements of each thing too. You can verify ECT, IAT, APPS, MAP, etc. Then with live data of engine load and RPM, you can verify injectors in life span. EGT's, Engine Oil Temperature, and ECT will tell you about engine health. Anything that creates heat is a loss of power. You can do so much more for the truck once you actually watching live data and looking for reasons for why the engine is creating large amounts of heat and wasting fuel to this created heat.

[Zach B]

Sorry to hear about the cancer, hope treatment is going well for you and you’re getting back to good health. 
 

I will just plan on getting the Timbo apps then, sounds like a good upgrade even if you aren’t having issues.

 

I am not 100% positive the alternator is working correctly, I am taking it to get ripple tested tomorrow. Found someone locally to do it. I am load testing the batteries tomorrow also, they both read the same voltage at 12.26v (yes, I unhooked them lol) but figured a load test wouldn’t hurt, they are pretty old. I’ll report my findings and see what you and others think of my results.

 

I will have to repaint some grounds, wasn’t sure if the paint or rust would be a better option, but I’ll get the trusty rattle can out and get to spraying. Previous owner ground all the paint off and I never addressed it. 

 

Alright, now to the Quadzilla.
 

So I know that I can see live data from the Cummins Canbus connector, is that different than the live data I can see from my obd2 port scanner? I have a obd2 scanner (brand is BlueDriver Pro) and I can read live data on everything you listed that the Quadzilla can read, ECT, IAT, APPS, and MAP. Those all read normal from my scanner except the apps which has been discussed. I can also see live engine load and rpm, but I have no idea how to interpret the engine load for the injector in life span. 

So technically I should be able to use that data I have from my scanner to determine engine health and if I’m getting excessive heat the same way the Quadzilla would, correct? Only thing I can’t read that you listed is my engine oil temp and egt. I don’t have any aftermarket gauges, my plan was to use the Quadzilla for the extras I wanted like EGT, trans temp, etc. I also recall reading that the Quad gauges aren’t as accurate as your analog pillar gauges??

 

I just hate to spend the money on the Quadzilla before spending money to fix any issues that would keep the Qaadzilla from maximizing its potential. I’m still not convinced my ecm is 100% healthy but I don’t think there’s a way to figure that out other than trying to make sure my electrical system is in good shape and then replacing/rebuilding the ECM. 

 

 

Edited January 30 by Zach B

[Mopar1973Man]

On 1/29/2024 at 8:59 PM, Zach B said:

but I have no idea how to interpret the engine load for the injector in life span. 

 

Typically a stock 310 bar injector lands like 8 to 10% engine load at idle. For my 320 bar injectors land about 13 to 14% engine load at idle. When engine load at idle is less than 2% it is best to replace your injectors. Once the injectors wear enough the engine load drops to 0% and then the idle RPM starts to rise continually till the injectors fails completely.  Idle speed is programmed for 800 RPM +/- 5 RPMs typically.

 

On 1/29/2024 at 8:59 PM, Zach B said:

Only thing I can’t read that you listed is my engine oil temp and egt.

 

The Engine oil is easy just take the supplied transmission temp sensor in the Quadzilla and screw it into the optional pressure port on the oil filter housing. No telflon tape! The sensor requires a clean ground contact. That will give the engine oil temperature in the transmission temp gauge. Now the EGT probe is supplied in the Quadzilla programmer. You'll need to drill a hole in the manifold and tap a 1/8 NPT hole just enough to place the tip of the EGT probe in the middle of the rear port.

 

On 1/29/2024 at 8:59 PM, Zach B said:

Quad gauges aren’t as accurate as your analog pillar gauges??

 

I'm running ISSPro EV2 gauges beside the Quadzilla display. I will admit the stock MAP sensors are not accurate at all. EGTs tend to be about 50-100*F high compared to the ISSPro Pyrometer. I've seen on my HX35/40 boost pressures of 53 PSI but Quadzilla logged 69 PSI. So above about 25 PSI, it loses accuracy. This isn't a Quadzilla problem per se it's the MAP sensor just not designed for huge boost numbers. The EGT's I think possibly a math issue? Seem like it follows an offset amount but does vary. Or maybe ISSPro is off? Which I'm not sure.

 

On 1/29/2024 at 8:59 PM, Zach B said:

I will have to repaint some grounds, wasn’t sure if the paint or rust would be a better option, but I’ll get the trusty rattle can out and get to spraying. Previous owner ground all the paint off and I never addressed it. 

Rusty metal is worse than painted metal. More you keep exposing metal the quicker your ground will rot away. So I would pull the lead off shoot the metal with paint let it cure then run your ground and screw back in that way all the metal is treated and the screw makes the ground connection like designed.

[Zach B]

Good info to know about the engine load, mine is stock and hangs right around 7-8% at idle. Good to know as engine load goes down my injector life is getting shorter.

 

Didn’t know the temp sensors were universal between oil and trans, good to know though. I thought the truck had a trans temp sensor already, I do have a light for it but I’ve never seen it on. My plan was to run some pillar gauges (I like the Power Driven Diesel ones) for what things I can’t get on the Quadzilla like transmission line pressure. I rebuilt my trans myself so it’d be nice to be able to continually monitor the health of it that way. 
 

Not surprised the stock map doesn’t read well above 25, it was never designed for that much boost. Good to know what kind of numbers you’re seeing on the Quad versus your issue Gauges. I probably won’t run dual sets of gauges right away, I’d rather put gauges the Quad doesn’t provide in the pillar mount. I’ll just keep in mind what you said about the difference in readings. 
 

I did end up painting all my grounds yesterday, so that’s taken care of. Also got results from ripple testing my alternator and load testing my batteries. Alternator tested completely fine, guy said ripple stayed in the green the entire test at max load but he didn’t give me any numbers. Battery load test revealed my driver side battery was completely shot, had zero cranking amps. Passenger side battery had very good health, measured 798 out of rated 810CCA. Bought two new batteries just cause, I’ll be putting them on tomorrow and hopefully my AC noise is down to the numbers you guys are seeing on your trucks. After that I should be all good to go with no more electrical issues and ready to move on to the quadzilla. I wish there was a way to test ECM health and if it’s working correctly, but oh well. Only thing that would have me thinking it’s not healthy is it gets a delayed WTS light about half the time you turn the key, other half the time it comes on immediately.

 

Thanks for the good advice and tips, if you have any other words of wisdom please send them my way!

[Mopar1973Man]

1 minute ago, Zach B said:

I thought the truck had a trans temp sensor already, I do have a light for it but I’ve never seen it on.

That light comes on after 295*F of transmission oil temp by then the transmission is junk. You could order a second sensor and then use a toggle switch to switch between engine oil and transmission oil temperatures.

 

3 minutes ago, Zach B said:

Not surprised the stock map doesn’t read well above 25, it was never designed for that much boost. Good to know what kind of numbers you’re seeing on the Quad versus your issue Gauges. I probably won’t run dual sets of gauges right away, I’d rather put gauges the Quad doesn’t provide in the pillar mount. I’ll just keep in mind what you said about the difference in readings. 

You don't need a pillar mount. I'm using a suction cup cell phone mount on my windshield and that way when I leave the truck I'm taking my phone with me. So if I drop my power level to level 1 which is barely set for 10% of fuel it will drive only about 20 MPH at WOT. As I remove my phone no one is able to gain control of the truck without knowledge of the tuner and setup no one can steal my truck. I've got a few other tricks too...

 

As for tuning, it's very important to have a final ratio after the tires are set for a 3.55 to 3.73 ratio. The optimal is 3.73 for the final ratio.

 

Then the pop pressure of the injectors WILL impact the timing and understand as injectors wear you have to retard your timing being the injectors advance timing when they wear. 

 

Warmer air is more efficient than cold air. The optimal is 80*F to 140*F IAT temperatures. Colder than 80*F you lose ignition value. My intercooler is covered over so it will retain heat more so for the ignition value.

 

Warmer coolant is more efficient than colder. Thermodynamics basically states that cold and hot are attracted to each other. The closer the temperature of the fire and the coolant are the better the efficiency. I'm currently running a 6.7L Cummins 200*F thermostat runs way better in the cold.

[Zach B]

Good thing I’ve never seen the trans temp light then, that is very hot for a trans. 
 

I was trying to figure out what kind of mount I would run for my phone. I have an old phone I thought of using as my Quadzilla monitor and control, that way I can have the quad pulled up all the time on it and have my current phone free for use. I wish they made a phone mount that went into one of the 2-1/16 holes for a triple pillar, that way I could put my phone in the bottom hole and my 2 extra pod gauges I wanna run in the holes above. I’ll do some looking around and come up with something.

 

I honestly cannot tell you what my final drive ratio is, never looked into that. I have a 3.55 gear ratio in the truck, that’s what is on my sticker under the hood. In the summer I run 33inch tires on my nice wheels, in the winter I run stock size winter tires on stock wheels (I believe 245/65, not positive) 

 

Yes I did know this about injectors giving a bit of timing advance as they wear out due to needing less pressure to pop. Pry would be a good idea to replace them someday since the truck has 320k but it still runs good so I’ll let it slide. It may see some bigger ones in the near future anyways.

 

Truck runs around 100-120 IAT in summer whenever I’m looking at it on my obd2 scanner, here recently it’s been lucky to get above 70 when the engine is at operating temp due to the extreme cold and highway speeds in the morning. I always thought colder air was better (to an extent) cause it was denser and shows to improve performance. Must just be a naturally aspirated gasoline thing then. I’ll do some testing and customize a piece of cardboard for ideal IAT temps.

 

Glad you mentioned cooling system and water temp, that is a concern I have. Person who owned the truck before me obviously ran well water or something in the cooling system. It was all brown and nasty, as well as tons of buildup in the radiator looking down in. When I say it was bad, I mean it was bad. Ended up replacing the radiator and doing a few flushes and haven’t ever had overheating issues, but I can only imagine my heater core, heat exchanger, and oil cooler look the exact same way inside as that radiator. Almost wonder if I should replace the heat exchanger and oil cooler just to ensure it’s actually cooling the oil efficiently which would help both trans and oil temp come down. I’m also convinced that’s the reason I don’t get good heat in the winter cause my heater core is also plugged up and not transferring heat as well as it should.

 

Sorry I don’t know how to quote multiple things in one reply. Would probably be easier if I was on a computer too

Edited February 1 by Zach B
Add something, fix spelling error

[Doubletrouble]

 As for IAT, I use a winter cover I ordered from Geno's Garage, one of our vendors here on the site. It works very well. We were in the single digits one night I checked with my obd scanner while driving 60mph getting 80°F at the IAT. And the whole thing is behind the grill, can't even see it and keeps people honest.

[Mopar1973Man]

Yeah even my home brew grill inserts and held in by a single bolt in each but doesn't block all cold air completely. Still in all I can still reach 70°F IAT on a zero degree day. 

 

I'm finding that the whole cold air intakes actually degrades MPG and daily driver efficiency being we are not running WOT all the time so cold air impacts the ability to convert liquid diesel to vapor to ignition takes much longer. If your running stock tuning then the ECMstack on additional 4 degrees advancement when IAT drops to 79°F.

[Zach B]

Well it’s been a few days since my last post here, wanted to update y’all with my findings. I got my new batteries in the truck, cleaned all connections and all grounds I could get to. Tested for AC noise after letting the truck warm up for awhile just to make sure the batteries were charged fully. I used my Fluke meter and measured the average, low and high over a 5 minute interval (yes, I stood there and held the leads on for 5 minutes.) Numbers I got was an average of .023V over the 5 minute period, and the highest amount of voltage it saw over that 5 minute period was .035V

 

Are these acceptable numbers or should I try to get them even lower? I’m pretty sure at this point the only thing I could try to do is replace the cables, every other thing that has been known to help is done. I even have newer copper lugs on the ends of the factory cables with the military style terminals and they’ve all been heat shrunk to seal the cable. What’s your thoughts?

[IBMobile]

6 hours ago, Zach B said:

Are these acceptable numbers or should I try to get them even lower?

About the same as I see with my Fluke.  I'd call this an acceptable level.   If you need to replace the terminals then do so otherwise wait till they are needed.    

[Zach B]

40 minutes ago, IBMobile said:

About the same as I see with my Fluke.  I'd call this an acceptable level.   If you need to replace the terminals then do so otherwise wait till they are needed.    

Sweet, good to know. Gonna get the timbo apps here soon after I buy tires and then move onto the Quadzilla. Thanks  again or the help everyone, it’s very appreciated