Some quick internet research on Propane Injection and Water/Methane injection. (Long)

[stodg73]

Currently, it went up about 5-6 mpg. I went from 14.5 to 20-21 mpg. Now, I get this mileage at 78 mph, with the cruise set. If I use my right foot, the mileage gets worse. I have done the same route several times and the mileage stays about the same.

[ISX]

So if diesel is $3/gal and I use 14.5 and 21mpg, that is going from $0.21/mile to $0.14/mile. Over 1000 miles that is a difference of $64. 3 tanks at 21mpg would get you 2205 miles and save you $141 over the 14.5mpg tanks. The propane costs $30 to fill up at $2.50/gal.I think it is worth it

[stodg73]

To me, it is totally worth it. I was filling up with diesel evey week and now I am filling up about every 3 weeks, and filling up with propane about every 6-8 weeks, depending on usage. I have towed heavy with mine and it helped alot. I towed about 13,000 lbs about 200 miles and got 15 mpg at 60 mph. I did this on 2 different occasions. After doing this, I had to fill the propane tank up, and refueled the truck 2 times. The more boost, the more propane you use, and yet, the more power you make.

[ISX]

What happens when you turn the truck off? I assume it just closes a solenoid valve. Any other things it does to prevent leak down?

[white01]

To me, it is totally worth it. I was filling up with diesel evey week and now I am filling up about every 3 weeks, and filling up with propane about every 6-8 weeks, depending on usage. I have towed heavy with mine and it helped alot. I towed about 13,000 lbs about 200 miles and got 15 mpg at 60 mph. I did this on 2 different occasions. After doing this, I had to fill the propane tank up, and refueled the truck 2 times. The more boost, the more propane you use, and yet, the more power you make.

wow...mopar gets...23 to 24mpg's..just think what he would get with some propane?wow

[JOHNFAK]

wow...mopar gets...23 to 24mpg's..just think what he would get with some propane?wow

No kidding. Man thats neat stuff. ISX would be in the 40mpg range !!! HAHAHAHAHAHA

[SASQCH]

STODG73, I do have some questions.What size tank(s) are you using and where/how are they mounted?What sort of propane range are you getting compared to your fuel tank range? In other words how often do you find that you need to refuel with propane?How do you know when your propane is getting low? Is there a mountable indicator or gauge to put in the drivers view for monitoring while driving?What injection system do you have?Can you post pictures of the tank mounted in your truck?How difficult was the install of the whole system?You said "With propane you have to worry about predetonation. This will blow head gaskets with the increased pressures."Would you recommend installing head studs and a better gasket before/with the propane system installation? Since I've never experienced predetonation on a diesel what are the indicators that it's happening and what do you do to correct it?Do you feel there is any danger of propane detonation in the manifold?Lastly, if you didn't have the system on your truck, but knew what you now know about propane on diesels. Would you still buy and install a system for your truck?

[stodg73]

STODG73,

I do have some questions.

What size tank(s) are you using and where/how are they mounted?

The tank size that I have is 12 gallons, and it is mounted under the crossover box in the bed.

What sort of propane range are you getting compared to your fuel tank range?

I get about 800 - 1200 mile per tank, depending on how I drive. I did a 1000 mile trip and used about 10.5 gallons of propane.

In other words how often do you find that you need to refuel with propane?

I try to fuel it up at about 10 % on the gauge.

How do you know when your propane is getting low?

There is a gauge mounted on the tank that I can see. If you run out of propane, there is no problem as you still are running on straight diesel.

Is there a mountable indicator or gauge to put in the drivers view for monitoring while driving?

I don't have a gauge inside the truck, I use the one on the tank. There are replacements for the gauge that I have that can be wired up for placement inside the cab.

What injection system do you have?

I have the one from Ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/DIESEL-PROPANE-INJECTION-KIT-GAIN-UP-100-HP-NEW-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem27b5e3ad19QQitemZ170555321625QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

Can you post pictures of the tank mounted in your truck?

In the picture the tank is under the crossover box.

How difficult was the install of the whole system?

The install wasn't that hard. I had to drill 4 holes in the bed of my truck, I hated doing this. Then I had to drill a hole in the intake, preturbo.

You said "With propane you have to worry about predetonation. This will blow head gaskets with the increased pressures."

Would you recommend installing head studs and a better gasket before/with the propane system installation?

What I meant with this was, it is very easy to turn up the propane to higher levels, i.e. the more the better concept(bad idea with propane), propane does burn faster than diesel, the piston will still be before TDC when pressures will start to spike and you will have a failure somewhere, typically headgasket. The injected diesel will ignite the propane, and since the propane is a gas it will be distributed around the cylinder just like air is, therefore the propane will help burn all the diesel that is injected. Currently, my truck is stock, no modifications to the engine. The only thing that I have done to it is propane injection and I use a SMARTY on fuel saver mode. I have to be careful with this setup because the SMARTY has very aggressive timing on the IP on level 1. I have also turned up the SMARTY to level 9 with as yet no problems.

Since I've never experienced predetonation on a diesel what are the indicators that it's happening and what do you do to correct it?

When I first installed the propane injection, I added a little too much and the engine started rattling more than usual. It sounded like it wanted to come apart, stall out, run very rough, blow a connecting rod, very bad things happening, or destroy itself. It ran like this for about 2 seconds before I let go of the button. After letting go of the button, the engine returned to normal idle speed. I did this while adjusting the propane system. Once you hear this sound, you don't ever want to hear it again. Depending on the system that you get, you turn down the propane.

Do you feel there is any danger of propane detonation in the manifold?

No, I don't feel like there is any danger of detonation in the manifold, due to the lack of an ignition source. The fire triangle, fuel-oxygen-ignition source, doesn't work. Now hypothetically, if there was a detonation in the intake manifold, the most likely fail point would be a intercooler boot. These are a weak spot, everything else is metal.

Lastly, if you didn't have the system on your truck, but knew what you now know about propane on diesels. Would you still buy and install a system for your truck?

Yes, I would still buy and install the system again. Soon, I will be installing a system on my dad's '93.

SASQCH, answers are in red, I think.

ISX, I have 2 electric solenoid valves on the system, one is at the tank that turns on with the key and main propane switch. The second one is at the propane regulator that is turned on by a Hobbs pressure switch, which is mounted to a boost bolt, and activated by boost pressure. There is no leakdown due to the fact that you are using a gas instead of a liquid.

When I was testing the system, I would push the override button, and the engine would smooth out considerably.

[SASQCH]

STODG73,The heater grids in the intake manifold are a potential ignition source. Will propane ignite from heat or does it need a spark/open flame?Thanks for the great first hand information.Jim

[stodg73]

STODG73, The heater grids in the intake manifold are a potential ignition source. Will propane ignite from heat or does it need a spark/open flame? Thanks for the great first hand information. Jim

The propane might ignite from the grid heaters, I am not sure as I have not had this happen, the reason is that the propane is not available until boost/psi is built. This is a safety feature built in the system. There is a Hobbs pressure switch, set at 4 psi, that electrically controls the flow of propane through a solenoid. When you first start your truck, there is no boost available so the Hobbs switch is open/off(open circuit). When you develop boost, the Hobbs switch closes/on(closed circuit), 12 volt power flows to the electric solenoid(off-closed/on-open) that is attached to the propane regulator and propane is released into the intake. What this means is that you have to be making a minimum of 4 psi of boost before the propane is released. I added a second fuel cut-off solenoid at the tank for safety reasons also. This solenoid is hard mounted to the tank, via steel clamp and grade 8 bolt.

[rburks]

[stodg73]

The problem most have is the DOT approved tanks that have to be filled. These are mounted in/on the truck solidly, usually between the frame rails for protection. Rburks is right, sometimes the propane distributor doesn't have long enough hoses to fill the tank on the truck, or the fill station is inaccessable to the big rigs. They do have remote fill hoses that you can purchase to relocate the fill point, yet they can only go so far. When I go to have mine filled, the hose that they use is barely long enough.

[BioRam 2500]

If using both propane and water/methanol is predetonation still an issue, or is it a propane only concern? Can they both be used at the same time and compound the results? Is the predetonation hazard dirrectly related to the diesel injection timing - will something that advances the diesel injection timing like this http://mopar.mopar1973man.com/cummins/2ndgen24v/mpg-fooler/mpg-fooler.htm be counterproductive. Or, can it be used at the same time as these upgrades? I have a feeling the predetonation at idle may have been caused by too much propane - the flash point of the propane was reached in the cylinder as the piston was still compressing (and super heating) the air and propane. By lowering the ammount of propane being fed to the engine enough (or delaying the introduction of propane until 4 PSI of boost is reached), it is deluted with enough air that it's no longer really flamable, and is only a combustion aid and simply helps the diesel to burn more completely. I wonder if the water/methanol injection aids in cooling the intake air enough to slow the predetonation as well.

[stodg73]

Propane is not injected at idle, unless you have a positive pressure regulator. This is not a good idea. On my propane set up, the propane is not turned on until 2 psi of boost. I am not sure, but I think that diesel has a lower flash point than propane. I also think that propane helps with burning all the diesel.

[BioRam 2500]

I'm really liking the sound of this propane injection stuff. Propane is under $2.00/gallon here in Montana. Also it shouldn't cause any corrosion issues in the steel cylinder head like water/methanol can.

[flagmanruss]

What is the deal for Propane in hazzardous locations? I know that there are some places where propane tanks are verboten! What would people do? Mount twin 30's (camper style) in the bed? I might be interested in meth/water injecting... no restrictions to carrying a case of wiper fluid.

[stodg73]

The 30 lb propane tanks should not be used, as they are not DOT approved. I have not had a problem trying to find a parking spot for my truck as yet, and I know that eventually I will, and will deal with it at that time. I know that it will be a longer walk for me.

[BioRam 2500]

From what I've read it's best to draw the propane out of the tank in the liquid form like forklifts and vehicles converted to run on propane alone do. Then the regulator/evaporator meters out the correct ammount of gassios propane via a hose into the intake pre turbo. This way it prevents a splash of liquid propane making it threw the vapor style regulator (like on a grill tank) and blowing up your engine. Any good advice on companies that sell the liquid meassured kits? How about something that increases LP proportional to boost like the kit from ATS? Know of someplace to find a good price on a used 12 to 15 gallon LP tank for my truck bed? Thanks for the help. I'm learning a lot.

[stodg73]

Since 1 gallon of liquid propane translates into about 265 gallons of gaseous propane, would you want even a little bit of liquid propane entering your engine? That is why I use the vapor side of the propane tank, as to not have a huge amount of liquid possibly getting into the engine. Also, most auto propane regulators have a heat port for the coolant flow, to heat the propane just in case any liquid got to the regulator. So, using the liquid side of the propane tank in your truck is very dangerous as there might not be enough heat from the coolant to flash the propane to gas before it hits that engine. Here is the Diesel Propane System that I am using. This system is working quite well for me. I also added another solenoid lockout valve and filter on my system at the tank for safety purposes. Look on Craigslist for DOT approved propane tanks that are from RV's, this way you are compliant with the regulations.

[BioRam 2500]

You are explaining the same idea as I am concerned about. I knew it needed to be heated by hot engine coolant to aid the evaporation and prevent the regulator from freezing. I didn't know that the systems already draw off of the vapor side and protect from the liquid LP getting to the engine. Sounds great! I'll start checking the local craig's list for a decent DOT approved tank, and maybe check the local salvage yards. The local propane shop sells used forklift tanks for about $100, and steel mounts are on e-bay for about $20. I could use one of those setups, but they aren't realy DOT approved.