Torque Converter Lock / Unlock Issues

[Mopar1973Man]

1 hour ago, rynsc100 said:

0.051 with errything turned on, but I did notice before I replaced the reman, there were spikes going all the way up to 0.113 VAC with stuff on. 

 

 

Don't bother with that side of testing. Load test during AC measure does do anything for us. If there was a way to produce an exact load for point of reference then the number would have meaning. Since your truck with every thing one might be different to my truck with everything on is going to be different amounts of load. This why in my video I don't ask for everything on value because it has no meaning since there is no way to load up exactly 100 amp load or 150 amp load then it would have meaning. Since there is no load reference (actual amp number) there is no way to make any sense from the loaded value AC volts loaded.

[pidaster]

Newbie here. I found this knowledge base due to having the lock/unlock issue on a truck I recently purchased. Just wanted to throw my two cents in on the subject. 

I read about resetting the apps sensor before I found out about testing the alternator. My truck seemed like it was low in power and would run the rpm too high and hold it before it would shift. After resetting the apps the truck ran much better and shifted right in the correct power band until it randomly started sputtering a week later when I tried to drive, however it would idle fine. Thinking the relatively new vp44 (not rebuilt) went bad I killed the engine. Ran a code scan and it didn't pull anything so I started it back up. The truck ran fine but I was back to the original shift patterns of holding a high rpm and less power but didn't have the lock/unlock issue on the way home (might not have had the chance since I jumped on the interstate). 
I found the thread about checking the alternator and the voltage on the apps sensor. I tested the alternator but it only showed .01 AC so I moved on to the apps check. My sticker stated .49v and it was only getting .37v. After adjusting it to exactly .49v all seems well. Improved fuel economy, power, proper shifting. I've driven it for 3 days now without incident. 
I'll update if anything else happens.

[dripley]

30 minutes ago, pidaster said:

Newbie here. I found this knowledge base due to having the lock/unlock issue on a truck I recently purchased. Just wanted to throw my two cents in on the subject. 

I read about resetting the apps sensor before I found out about testing the alternator. My truck seemed like it was low in power and would run the rpm too high and hold it before it would shift. After resetting the apps the truck ran much better and shifted right in the correct power band until it randomly started sputtering a week later when I tried to drive, however it would idle fine. Thinking the relatively new vp44 (not rebuilt) went bad I killed the engine. Ran a code scan and it didn't pull anything so I started it back up. The truck ran fine but I was back to the original shift patterns of holding a high rpm and less power but didn't have the lock/unlock issue on the way home (might not have had the chance since I jumped on the interstate). 
I found the thread about checking the alternator and the voltage on the apps sensor. I tested the alternator but it only showed .01 AC so I moved on to the apps check. My sticker stated .49v and it was only getting .37v. After adjusting it to exactly .49v all seems well. Improved fuel economy, power, proper shifting. I've driven it for 3 days now without incident. 
I'll update if anything else happens.

Hope it all works out for. Where did you find a new VP?

30 minutes ago, pidaster said:

Newbie here. I found this knowledge base due to having the lock/unlock issue on a truck I recently purchased. Just wanted to throw my two cents in on the subject. 

I read about resetting the apps sensor before I found out about testing the alternator. My truck seemed like it was low in power and would run the rpm too high and hold it before it would shift. After resetting the apps the truck ran much better and shifted right in the correct power band until it randomly started sputtering a week later when I tried to drive, however it would idle fine. Thinking the relatively new vp44 (not rebuilt) went bad I killed the engine. Ran a code scan and it didn't pull anything so I started it back up. The truck ran fine but I was back to the original shift patterns of holding a high rpm and less power but didn't have the lock/unlock issue on the way home (might not have had the chance since I jumped on the interstate). 
I found the thread about checking the alternator and the voltage on the apps sensor. I tested the alternator but it only showed .01 AC so I moved on to the apps check. My sticker stated .49v and it was only getting .37v. After adjusting it to exactly .49v all seems well. Improved fuel economy, power, proper shifting. I've driven it for 3 days now without incident. 
I'll update if anything else happens.

Hope it all works out for. Where did you find a new VP?

[pidaster]

On October 1, 2016 at 10:04 AM, dripley said:

Hope it all works out for. Where did you find a new VP?

Hope it all works out for. Where did you find a new VP?

 

The guy I purchased it from had it replaced at a performance shop, they said it was new and not rebuilt. I guess the shop could have lied to him but they are a reputable place and the previous owner is a business contact and I don't think he would have had any reason to lie.
Is there any way to tell between new or rebuilt?

[dripley]

I would think there has to be some sort of marking to differentiate between them. But I did not think ther had been any new ones available for quite some time. I dont remember seeing any new ones 6 years ago when I looked for mine. But with the price of the remans I did not want to know what a new one cost.

 

 

 

 

 

[rynsc100]

Little over 2 weeks, and no issues. I did have it come back for a day, but it was related to transmission fluid levels. Filled er' up and it went away. Gotta hunt the source of that leak

 

For those that are curious, I talked to Nations about their alternator for the 2nd gen Cummins, PN: 13302-180HP

It's only 289.95 for the 180amp alternator. I would recommend going this way. It doesn't have the cool ionized metal casing but it will do the job. Just gotta call them to send you a paypal invoice since it's not on their website. 

[Mopar1973Man]

Some info that I've learned to summarize. Output speed sensor can produce the same issues but the alternator test will result in the same hunting problem. Bad part is the codes for the speed sensor might not trip.

[Citation_SP]

Hi Mopar1973man,

I read an article you wrote in 2012 regarding torque convertor lockup issues. I have a 2002 Dodge 2500 I bought new and when it had about 50,000 miles on it the convertor issue started. The dealer, under warranty, replaced a lot of unnecessary items even though I kept telling them it was electrical and not mechanical. I replaced the alternator as a test in 2009 and the truck still had the problem. I disconnected the field terminal plug from the alternator and it still has the issue. I tried shielding the wiring harness over the alternator and for a couple of years the problem subsided however it has returned and that is when I started to think like you in that it was probably something in the alternator. I stopped driving the truck a few years ago and have recently decided to attempt a fix so I can sell it. I am in the process of rebuilding my original alternator and would you suggest replacing the diode assembly? Can I test the diode assembly without removing it from the alternator?

I never doing any towing with the truck so I was considering just disabling the lockup convertor circuit. I believe the engine will run a little faster in OD and perhaps the trans oil will get a bit warmer but since I never tow do I really care? Thoughts???

 

Thanks,  Mike

Edited January 25, 2017 by Citation_SP
asdded info

[Mopar1973Man]

16 hours ago, Citation_SP said:

Can I test the diode assembly without removing it from the alternator?

 

Measure the AC voltage at the BATT terminal of the alternator while idling. Make sure to read the note at the top of my article.

Before Testing - IMPORTANT PLEASE DO NOT SKIP!

Before doing any testing of the alternator for AC noise, make sure to remove any and all wiring modifications. Return the electrical system back to stock. Make sure there is no extra grounds, relocation of ground wires or noise filters installed before testing the alternator. It has been brought to my attention that wiring mods can and will provide false passing grades for the alternator. The entire electrical system should be left stock and unmodified so you (the owner) are alerted sooner to impending alternator failure. Stock system will show AC noise issues much sooner than modified system which will mask the issue and then typically cause damage to ECM, PCM or VP44 sooner.

 

16 hours ago, Citation_SP said:

I am in the process of rebuilding my original alternator and would you suggest replacing the diode assembly?

 

Typically it is the diode pack that causes problems, but there is bearing issues and brush and slip ring issues too. That will also cause AC noise problems.

[Citation_SP]

5 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Measure the AC voltage at the BATT terminal of the alternator while idling. Make sure to read the note at the top of my article.

Before Testing - IMPORTANT PLEASE DO NOT SKIP!

Before doing any testing of the alternator for AC noise, make sure to remove any and all wiring modifications. Return the electrical system back to stock. Make sure there is no extra grounds, relocation of ground wires or noise filters installed before testing the alternator. It has been brought to my attention that wiring mods can and will provide false passing grades for the alternator. The entire electrical system should be left stock and unmodified so you (the owner) are alerted sooner to impending alternator failure. Stock system will show AC noise issues much sooner than modified system which will mask the issue and then typically cause damage to ECM, PCM or VP44 sooner.

 

 

Typically it is the diode pack that causes problems, but there is bearing issues and brush and slip ring issues too. That will also cause AC noise problems.

 

Thanks for the insight. I am going to remove all of my extra shielding prior to testing. I have ordered a new Bosch rotor since the slip rings were nearly worn through, a new set of Bosch brushes and a new front bearing to install in my original Bosch alternator.

 

Interesting you would mention the VP44, the chain of event was the PCM went into limp mode in 2007 and the dealer replaced the PCM under warranty (47,000 miles), about 3 months later the torque convertor started acting up and was replaced under warranty, in May of 2008 with a little over 50,000 miles the VP44 pump went out and was replaced under warranty. As time progressed the dealer attempted to fix the convertor issue by replacing the APPS 4 times, the batteries, rebuilt the transmission, replaced all the solenoids inside the transmission 2 times, replaced the PCM a second time. All this was under warranty and they finally said my problem was that I drove it too easy!!!! So much for dealer knowledge and all along I kept telling them it was an electrical noise issue and nothing mechanical. All through the convertor issues there was never a fault code produced.

[Mopar1973Man]

Would help to full out you signature with all you mods. Might be other things dragging the train down.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Mopar1973Man

[Citation_SP]

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Would help to full out you signature with all you mods. Might be other things dragging the train down.

My 2002 Dodge 2500 Ram, 2 wheel drive, conventional cab, ST truck is completely stock never modified in any way, no options and is without A/C.

[Mopar1973Man]

Go over to your username in the upper right and select user settings, then next screen select signature on the left. Then fill out your signature with that information.

 

AC I'm asking about is AC voltage noise not A/C as in Air Conditioning.....

[Citation_SP]

19 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Go over to your username in the upper right and select user settings, then next screen select signature on the left. Then fill out your signature with that information.

 

AC I'm asking about is AC voltage noise not A/C as in Air Conditioning.....

I updated my signature. I know what you meant about the AC which I m going to check this weekend. I said no A/C because I wanted you to know that since I don't have  air conditioning this could not contribute to the AC noise issue.

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[Mopar1973Man]

A/C will not have an impact on AC Noise from the alternator.

[Citation_SP]

16 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

A/C will not have an impact on AC Noise from the alternator.

I didn't think so but it's good to cover all of the bases.

 

Mike

[JAG1]

Welcome to the forum Citation.

 

 I would like an a gauge in the cab showing AC noise, are there any sensitive enough to give an accurate readings?

Edited January 27, 2017 by JAG1

[Citation_SP]

Here is what has transpired since Thursday. I checked the alternator rectifier diodes and they are neither open or shorted. I rebuilt the alternator using a new Bosch rotor, new Bosch brush assembly and new Bosch bearings. I removed all of the shielding I had installed 5 years ago attempting to correct the lockup problem so the truck's electrical system is back to stock. I reinstalled the rebuilt alternator and when I test drove the truck it immediately started the lockup/unlock condition. I feel I am back to square one and have exhausted all options but one and that is to electrically disable the torque converter lockup circuit. I have no reservations about doing this since I have never and probably will never tow anything. I can stand the 125 rpm increase without the torque converter lockup and the minimal extra heat buildup in the transmission. I feel this is a small sacrifice to be able to drive the ruck since at this time the truck is useless.  I am open for any comments or discussions.

 

Thanks,

 

Mike 

[Mopar1973Man]

Remove the alternator fuse and disconnect the field lead go for drive. If the problem is gone the the alternator is bad. If it still there the a.c. noise is coming from another device.

[Citation_SP]

On ‎1‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 11:08 AM, Mopar1973Man said:

Remove the alternator fuse and disconnect the field lead go for drive. If the problem is gone the the alternator is bad. If it still there the a.c. noise is coming from another device.

I did this and also shorted the field terminals to remove any residual back EMF. Took the truck for a drive and still has the issue. My friend has  2001 Dodge truck with 50,000 miles on it and has the same issue and we have been trying all the suggestions on both trucks and we still have the issue. I think the best couse of action at this point is to disable the torque convertor lock up circuit. Is this just as simple as removing the pin from the connector at the PCM or do I need to add a resistor to trick the PCM into thinking the wire is still hooked up?