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Rogan

Thinking of going bigger turbo + injectors...

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So, right now, I have the stock HX35 and stock sticks. Edge Juice w/Attitude on 3x3 (Drive-mode).

I have a set of 155hp BD Pulse-XXX sticks in the garage. My perfect-world scenario would be go to twins, but that's not in the checkbook right now.

So, I'm looking at possibly going to either HX40, Silver Bullet, or Super B, or something along those lines, provided they're large enough to air the 155 sticks.

I'm not scared to buy a used turbo, either, provided it's from someone I can trust (forum friend, etc.) as the > $1000 price tags are not an option for me.

I still need to install my dual-disc clutch, and I need to do tire, brakes, and a radiator cleaning..

Discuss.

Thanks,

Rogan

- - - Updated - - -

additional turbo thoughts are:

S300

HE351VNT w/ Fleece Controller

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your vote is the same place mine is, John. However, my wallet has said it ain't happenin'...

What's the pros/cons of the he351cw VS an s300?

As for running the 155s on the HX... no way sir. with the OE sticks in it, I can easily hit 1200*F + with the Edge on 4, with little to no effort while towing. And, it'll smoke like a freight train with the OEs, so I can only imagine what the 155s would do.

---EDIT---

-Hy35, flows approx 57 lbs/min

-Hx35, flows approx 60.85 lbs/min

-He351cw (Spools faster than the hx35, but makes the same power) flows approx 60.85 lbs/min

-Hx40, flows approx 70.10 lbs/min

-Hx45 (can't find the flow at this time)

-Hx50/52 or 55. flows approx 99.20 lbs/min

-Hx60 (Notice I didn't say HT60), flows approx 125.66 lbs/min

-Hx82, flows approx 198.42 lbs/min

If I'm only gaining spool speed, then what's the point?

- - - Updated - - -

so, further reading, I see where guys use the he351cw as a top charger in a twin setup? bottom being an S471 or the likes??

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Everything I have found is that the HE351CW and the HX40 share the same compressor wheel, this is also the same wheel that is found in the HE351VE. The flow ratings are anywhere from 60-70 lb/min. The biggest different in all 3 is the turbine side, and honestly that is the limiting factor using this turbo. The HE351CW has a VERY restrictive turbine. It's cheap, has a good comp, works good in the twins like John has, but it's a high DP turbo when the WG is closed. It does work for many, many, many people thou. The HX40 has good flow on the turbine, but is slower to spool. So take your pick on where you want it to run best. HE351CW, it has a better turbine unit than the CW and a variable housing. This really is a great way to go in the ~350-400 rwhp range. You get a VGT turbo and an exhaust brake for the price of an exhaust brake alone. I almost went this route, had a turbo, but didn't for a couple reasons but nothing that would really effect a 2nd gen. So there you have it.

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So there you have it.

^^^ what john said :)

Not sure where you got your flow numbers - pretty sure the he351 flows a lot more than the hx35 - it has a 60mm comp wheel and the hx35 has a 56/57 from memory. Spool up is awesome.

It is more restrictive on the exhaust side due to sizing - but I saw very little difference in EGT between my S-HX40 and the he351cw. Probably due to higher cfm . Just much better spoolup.

As for running any of the above - EGT will still be an issue with your foot in it - you will probably have to run the edge on level 1 for timing only and use your injectors and foot for fuel. 150 injectors are really for a 62 comp wheel and a 12-14cm exhaust (65-68 turbine).

A hybrid and a S300 base are going to be good - but its the $$ for the conversion.

Same with the VGT due to the electronic controller. Some guys have done it mechanically - beyond me.

If the wallet truly wont allow twins ......... why not sell the injectors and get some +75's/+100's like mine - and go the hx35 or he351cw route - and use your programmer to control fuel levels. I really have all the power I need - Im probably going to go some 7x0.10 (~150 Hp) soon - but I plan to keep my juice turned way down mostly ..... not for EGT as I have twins ..... but breaking my tranny :)

I like the +75's way better than stock/rv275's ....... and pull same/similiar mileage :)

- - - Updated - - -

so, further reading, I see where guys use the he351cw as a top charger in a twin setup? bottom being an S471 or the likes??

this is what Im running ........ he351cw/s472
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thanks alot, guys. I like the idea of the VGT and getting the benefit of the EB in the process, but the controller side would/could be an issue. Especially with the aftermarket controllers in the 6-800$ range :spend:I'm not real familiar with drive pressure, as well as how it affects the VP trucks vs. the CP trucks, etc.. Are the 351cw's also limited to the ~30psi range, as the hx35s are?I waltzed through ebay real quick, and most of the he351cw's I saw there were in the 6-800$ range.. I know of (2) S300s I can pick from for less than that.And, like FAK, I like the idea of starting with an he351cw and having the ability to do a 472 under it, later on. :)

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Dont know why I cant find the info Im after yet .... but heres some info .... http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/he351-vs-hx35-t263640.html The he351 has a 7 blade 60mm extended tip compressor wheel. The hx-35 will have a 54mm 7 blade, or 56mm 8 blade wheel. Both turbos have a 60mm turbine, but the wastegate and exhaust outlet on the 351 is much better. ive compared hx-35, he 351 and 35/40 hybrid. the 351 cools egts best of the 3. iwas very impressed with it and the power increase vs the 35 was noticable. i can run 80 mph at 2400 rpm empty 12-14psi boost get 18+ mpg. big injectors. pump almost maxed. .. ... Id sell the injectors man ......... go with something a little smaller and stick with the hx35 and twin it later (start saving). You'll need headstuds or similar after 40psi anyways

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OP, what about a HX35/40 hybrid? I have one on my truck and it seems to run pretty well. Apache, do you have any of the specs for the hybrids out there in your library? I have seen boost up to 48 psi on a cheap glowshift gauge, but I think that with the comp at 5x5 I can push the turbo too far with my injectors. I am not sure what exhaust housing I am using, as I have been away on a .biz trip for the past few weeks. The hybrids can be quite a bit cheaper than some of the other options mentioned, just a thought.

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I'm not real familiar with drive pressure, as well as how it affects the VP trucks vs. the CP trucks, etc..

DP is a concern for efficiency and HG failure. The smaller exhaust turbine and housing can be restrictive and increase DP (in theory). Thing is - when you twin it this changes ...... Im not sure exactly how it works - but ever wondered why you can run a hx35 up to 60 psi in a twin setup - but not as a single :)

Are the 351cw's also limited to the ~30psi range, as the hx35s are?

From what I have read you can take them to 45-50 psi as a single. But most people run in the 35-40psi range. I have had mine to 45psi in a twin.

I waltzed through ebay real quick, and most of the he351cw's I saw there were in the 6-800$ range.. I know of (2) S300s I can pick from for less than that.

Going rate for a used he351cw is about 400 on CF. Get 250 for the hx35 if its good. So $150 for changeover and you need a modified downpipe to prevent having to modify the wastegate when clocked. That will run you $100 if you cant build yourself, and you need a hx40 flange adapter and plug for wastegate controller.

And, like FAK, I like the idea of starting with an he351cw and having the ability to do a 472 under it, later on. :)

I REALLY like my twins. Kinda wished I just done hx35/s475 with bigger injectors and built tranny right off the bat ..... as I had a new hx35 at once stage ....... but i have absolutely no turbo lag ..... NONE. And the way it pulls from 20-> to all the way through to my end of fuel ~45 psi is crazy. And EGT start to go down with more boost too ...... weird when you put your foot in it and EGT goes down.

- - - Updated - - -

The hybrids can be quite a bit cheaper than some of the other options mentioned, just a thought.

Only couple places I saw that would handle the hybrid build properly was $500 plus shipping each way.

So $600 for a 60mm wheel.

He351cw is $400 after switchout and shipping.

But yeah - its basically a new turbo ............

Stick with the hx35 and go with 75's :) ....... then start saving twins - seriously :):thumb1:

That way you'd actually get an extra $100-$200 in your hand , really wake the truck up ..... and get to save towards something crazy in teh future :)

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Stick with the hx35 and go with 75's :) ....... then start saving twins - seriously :):thumb1: That way you'd actually get an extra $100-$200 in your hand , really wake the truck up ..... and get to save towards something crazy in teh future :)

So they do twins with the hx35/S475? I saw an S475 for $800.. Hmm... :) I'll price some 75s in the meantime..

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So they do twins with the hx35/S475? I saw an S475 for $800.. Hmm... :) I'll price some 75s in the meantime..

Thats the most common config. You could go smaller on the primary (s472) for quicker spoolup but youd limit around 550hp I think. The primary turbo isnt the main expense - its the piping and the headstuds and potentially springs :)

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The bottom turbo isn't the expensive part in twins, generally, it's the piping. Hybrid's are good, HX35 turbine with a HX40 comp wheel. Pretty much like a good turbined HE351. When talking twins it's about the pressure ratio, not total pressure. Let me explain, simple generic terms. Desired manifold pressure is 50 psi. You want each turbo to run in the broadest part of it's map. This will provide the coolest intake charge. For S&G I'll explain with the twins I want to run. My GT3782R over a GT4294R. I would want to push about 4.2: pressure ratio peak. The GT3782R is broadest at 2.5:1 and the GT4294R at about 2.6:1. So using those numbers and sea level pressure..Pressure out of primary (14.7*2.6-14.7) 24 psig, which gives 38 psia into the secondary, which comes out at 57 psi (38*2.5-38). So if you look just at the PR, the seconadry is only working as hard as it would as a single pushing 22 psi. That is far more boost than I would need, but I would be able to efficiently move 30-85 lb/min which would cool 450 rwhp more than adequately. The one thing about twins is they generally build more pressure than is needed for the hp, hence the reason they run so cool. I really only would need about 35 psi to stay cool at 450 rwhp, so think how cool I would run at 50-55 psi.

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Let me explain, simple generic terms.

Nice description. You left out the part about how DP changes with twins tho :) eg How the HX35 can be taken well outside the normal boost range with twin setup. For giggles and not to hijack - help me calculate mine (I have to do it soon to check my balance - but no guages yet). he351cw/s472. PM me or post here - sure Rogan wont mind 1 quick sidetrack :):tease:

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by all means, post here if you like. Turbocharging and diesels are completely different than turbocharging and gas engines. I'm quite familiar with the latter. the former is what I'm really trying to get a grasp on now. especially with the impending upgrade(s)..

John(s), thank you both for the edumacayshun. :) I didn't realize (or really) understand how the twins worked, aside from the physical connectivity.

- - - Updated - - -

one guy is selling the s300(s).. one's an S, the other a G. Said they'd work good together as compounds...

wut?

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Nice description. You left out the part about how DP changes with twins tho :) eg How the HX35 can be taken well outside the normal boost range with twin setup.

For giggles and not to hijack - help me calculate mine (I have to do it soon to check my balance - but no guages yet). he351cw/s472. PM me or post here - sure Rogan wont mind 1 quick sidetrack :):tease:

DP changes under heavy throttle because the WG on the primary opens sooner. If your running your WG at 35 psi on a turbo as a single you will have 100% of the exhaust going thru the turbine wheel and will be at peak drive pressure. Which can exceed 50 psi on a HE351. Now put that turbo into twins and the WG opens much sooner. I am not sure how you have it setup, but some open the secondary WG on total boost, others on primary boost. Either way the WG usually opens about the time the primary starts to light and puts more flow to the primary. So now at 35 psi the secondary WG is open, and both turbo's are in the low-mid part of the MAP just puttin along. Cruise DP is unaffected, which is where efficiency comes to play.

Are you running 2 boost gauges?

by all means, post here if you like. Turbocharging and diesels are completely different than turbocharging and gas engines. I'm quite familiar with the latter. the former is what I'm really trying to get a grasp on now. especially with the impending upgrade(s)..

John(s), thank you both for the edumacayshun. :) I didn't realize (or really) understand how the twins worked, aside from the physical connectivity.

- - - Updated - - -

one guy is selling the s300(s).. one's an S, the other a G. Said they'd work good together as compounds...

wut?

They are a small and a large S300, similar to what BD uses for it's tow twins. QUICK spooling, and supports about as much HP as the cooling system can support sustained.
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Are you running 2 boost gauges?

Not yet :) Its coming. Help me work out the "balanced" boost for each turbo if total manifold pressure is 45psi (my max boost). Based on my PR ratios for these turbos :):thumbup2:

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You will move the most air at a 2.75 PR out of the S472 and about 3:1 out of the HE351, so at sea level your moving max air at 25 out of the primary and 80 total. Thou I think most peak them at about 60 psi based on turbine flow. But at 45 psi of boost (you need fuel :-), I would run about 18-20 psi out of the primary and that puts the primary at 2.3:1 and secondary at 1.72:1, where both are very effecient. You could tune the primary to run a little less, but I think you want it spooled up a little better for quicker response when towing thru rolling hills. I would try running unregulated air to the WG on the HE351 and see what it does once you get 2 boost gauges. Did you enlarge the WG opening on the 351?

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You will move the most air at a 2.75 PR out of the S472 and about 3:1 out of the HE351, so at sea level your moving max air at 25 out of the primary and 80 total. Thou I think most peak them at about 60 psi based on turbine flow. But at 45 psi of boost (you need fuel :-), I would run about 18-20 psi out of the primary and that puts the primary at 2.3:1 and secondary at 1.72:1, where both are very effecient. You could tune the primary to run a little less, but I think you want it spooled up a little better for quicker response when towing thru rolling hills. I would try running unregulated air to the WG on the HE351 and see what it does once you get 2 boost gauges. Did you enlarge the WG opening on the 351?

Send me a PM on how you calculated this please :) Ive got most of it - but where you picked up the PR values and worked out the ratios :) Carl said not to bother with the turbo wastegate opening unless your over 600HP. Yes I need both gauges :) But its pretty nice as it is - so just havent made it a priority yet and Im in the process of ordering 7x0.010 :) Unregulated air to the elbow to see when WG opens you mean ? I think it was 28 psi ...... I think Carl also said that when you run it though it will open earlier due to backpressure from exhaust flow. So then not sure how to tell when its opening at RUNNING conditions. :think: (sorry Rogan - hijacking more than I intended - get back on track soon )

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No worries FAK, I'm learning, too.:)Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

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Send me a PM on how you calculated this please :) Ive got most of it - but where you picked up the PR values and worked out the ratios :) Carl said not to bother with the turbo wastegate opening unless your over 600HP. Yes I need both gauges :) But its pretty nice as it is - so just havent made it a priority yet and Im in the process of ordering 7x0.010 :) Unregulated air to the elbow to see when WG opens you mean ? I think it was 28 psi ...... I think Carl also said that when you run it though it will open earlier due to backpressure from exhaust flow. So then not sure how to tell when its opening at RUNNING conditions. :think: (sorry Rogan - hijacking more than I intended - get back on track soon )

I'll put it here for the masses. I googled HE351 and S472 compressor MAPs for the best PR ratio's. Which is why that is peak airflow, and that's compressor potential, the turbine plays a role in total effectiveness. So pressure at sea level is 14.7 psia (ambient) and 0 psig (gauge). A compressor works with ambient pressure. The widest part of the S472 MAP is at a 2.75 PR, meaning it will compress the air 2.75 times. So 2.75*14.7 (psia) gets us 40.4 psia output, now subtract the input pressure (14.7) and you have 25.7 psig. Now when you get into compounds the secondary works with psia again, so were back at 40.4*3.0 = 121 psia output, subtract 40.4 and we are at 80.8 psig. The other numbers are derived the same by looking at the compressor map and picking PR's that will have good flow/spool, which is why it's not quite even. Who is Carl, and what wastegate is he talking about at the 600hp level, S472 or HE351?

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So, John (FAK) has been expressing various options with reasons (offline discussions) and I thank him for that. But I think a lot of good info will get lost that other members may be able to benefit from, so I brought the convo back public.Basically, I think I'm leaning towards the option of keeping the HX35 and throw in some small sticks (50 or 75s), to be honest.. BUT, here's my question/concern.. Right now, my truck with the Edge on 4 will smoke light a freight train (as previously mentioned) pretty much, at will. Won't this only get worse with bigger sticks? I understand I'll need to dial my box back. The biggest point of confusion for me is how M73M and others can run a bigger injector (rv275, etc.) on a stock turbo, and their box on 5x5 or greater... No way in hell I can do that, especially with a trailer on, and keep EGTs below 1100+ on any real type of engine load.

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I may have missed it, but what kind of boost do you build?

John, right now, the highest I've ever seen is 32psi for a split second. On average, it's max boost seems to hover around the 28-29psi mark.. Climbing the 6% grade, pulling ~9000lb trailer, 5th gear (nv5600) at 55-60, it's about 23-25psi, easily 1100*F+, but only hazing, if that.. That's with the Edge on 3x5 or 4x5. I've never towed in 5 or HotUnlock. Same hill, same speed/gear, with Edge on 2 or 3, it'll hover around 1000* and 22-23psi. Around town, rowing through the gears, it'll haze heavy at gear change/acceleration of 3, 4, and 5 on any Edge setting > 2. On 4, empty, it'll really bellow the smoke on gear-change accelerations til about 8-10psi. Think my stock sticks are wore out? 180+k miles on the truck.

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