SASQCH

Yes, I put in injector cleaner a couple of days ago. It didnt stall for about two days then started stalling again. I have my +80 injectors that have about 20K miles on them. I'm thinking about having them pop tested to see where they are at. The truck also stalled with them when they were in the truck. I was just wondering whether a higher or lower pop would help. Do you have any idea what the lowest usable pressure is? I know 310 bar is the high end.

OK, I pulled the transmission relay and guess what..... It still stalls just like before. So that should eliminate the TC clutch going into lockup and stalling the engine at least on my truck. I still have a sneaking suspicion that the injector pop pressure has something to do with the stalling. I don't know if a higher pop pressure would help or a lower pop pressure would help. To my way of thinking a higher pop pressure would atomize the fuel better but be perhaps a few nanoseconds slower to inject and ignite. On the other hand a lower pop pressure would inject a few nanoseconds sooner and perhaps ignite soon enough to prevent the stall. What do you guys think?

I think the edge works like the TST PowerMax III. It don't have fuel mapping of its own that it puts in the ECM. like the smarty does, it just extends the duration of what the ECM calls for from the map.

I can try that today also. John, can you also try pulling the relay?

Don't think so, been down that road before. I have the TST co pilot hooked in the system to control the lockup. It has an indicator light that shows when it goes into lockup and it don't flash or anything. Now I do have a toggle switch setup to disengage the lockup, I will try with the switch set so lockup cannot possibly happen, and post the results. Before I had the copilot I had a lockup toggle switch and have accidentally killed the engine with it at idle. The engine stop is instantaneous, this isn't killing that quick.

ISX and John Try to put your trucks in gear immediately after engine start from neutral to see if it keeps running after going into gear. Also, try to put it into gear without holding the brake and see if that affects the stalling. I just sent an email to MADs electronics who make the smarty to try to get their input. They have a lot of experience with the fueling maps. Here is what I said: "Gentlemen, I and quite a number of 2nd generation 24 valve dodge diesel owners are experiencing a phenomenon of engine stalling when the outside temperature is below 50F. These trucks all seem to have several things in common, larger than stock injectors, and low stall multiple lockup disk torque converters. A number of us have been discussing the issue on a dodge diesel forum. Here is the URL to the discussion thread: http://forum.mopar1973man.com/showthread.php/2827-OK-guys-my-engine-stalling-when-the-put-in-drive-is-back-with-the-winter-fuel-blend . There are even several videos of what is happening from the drivers view. We are suspecting that at low temperatures, the sudden increase on engine loading from the low stall converter coupled, with the larger injectors puts the fueling requirements outside the range of the fueling map at 750 rpm. I know you folks have a lot of experience in this area and would appreciate your thoughts or any suggestions you have that might help with the problem. I and several of the others have the smarty S-03, I was wondering if there is a different program that might address the issue. Is there any way with the S-03 we can change the idle rpm from 750 to 850 in the ECM. If it is the fueling map causing it to stall, it would be nice to have a compensation section on the program for a low stall multi disk torque converter like you have for injectors and torque management. Awaiting your response If I get a response I will share the content.

Just edited my previous post with some thoughts.

ISX, When my truck stalls it don't seem to act quite like yours does. How does it act if you don't hold the brake when you pull it into gear? Mine don't seem to stall as often if it can start moving when it is pulled into Drive. That again seems to point to engine load. What happens on a standard if at idle you pop the clutch into engagement (not holding the brake)? Will it die or start moving and try to recover rpms? Ya, I know if you are holding the brake like you do on an automatic when pulling it into gear it will die.:banghead: On the auto we have more moving parts and internal friction than a standard trans, and I'm thinking the low stall multi disk converters put a load on the engine like a std when the clutch is suddenly engaged in second or third gear. Here is the video I posted last May on my stalling issue. Notice it don't stall when going into Reverse, however it does stall going into Drive. Also notice that if I start it in Neutral and immediately pull it into Drive it don't stall. http://s1015.photobucket.com/albums/...ftedintodr.flv Jim

OKAY, let's throw this into the mix of variables. Today in Anchorage it is about 40F and light rain with high humidity. Yesterday the truck didn't stall with the injector cleaner in the fuel. Today it stalls about 50% of the time I put it into drive or reverse after I start it warm or cold. After one or two times stalling, it no longer stalls until I shut it off for 10 or 15 minutes, then it will stall once or twice before going into gear without stalling. So what is it about high humidity and cool air that causes this change in behavior? Air density? what? Jim --- Update to the previous post... Responses in red above.

STODG73,The heater grids in the intake manifold are a potential ignition source. Will propane ignite from heat or does it need a spark/open flame?Thanks for the great first hand information.Jim

I have never disengaged the heaters so I can't answer that question, and it will be about 2 weeks before I use the fuel in the tank with the injector cleaner in it. ISX, I suspect that the injector cleaner changes the volatility of the fuel enough that it ignites fast enough that the engine don't stall out. It does have a quite noticeable hesitation before getting more fuel from the ECM/IP and keeping on running. Jim --- Update to the previous post... I suspect that the manuals are set that high to compensate for inexperienced manual drivers letting out the clutch quickly. A stock TC is designed to apply the load to the engine more gradually than a manual clutch. At idle a manual TC will slip enough that the truck just sits there. A low stall TC won't do that it will pull the truck even on a upward grade. Mine will accelerate the empty truck on level ground enough to cause two transmission shifts so I'm in third gear. I'm wondering if the ECM idle were set to 850 like the manual trans trucks, would it continue to stall when pulled into drive? Then would mine at idle rolling shift into OD?

Hmm.. If that were the case why does the rpm stabilize at 748 whether the truck is in park/neutral or on drive? In park or neutral, there should not be a lot of internal drag in the TC because the transmission clutches and bands are released. It should be nearly as free turning as a standard trans out of gear with the clutch let out I would think. However when the trans is pulled into drive there is a much greater demand for power to overcome the internal converter drag. When the truck is in drive (and didn't stall) while holding the brake, I hear the engine make more noise from working the torque converter fluid. That's an audible indicator of the increased engine load (LOD). I suspect the RPM is exactly where the ECM is programmed for it to be. When the truck is put in drive the ECM asks for more fuel to compensate for the increased LOD. I think it just isn't responding quick enough or with not enough fuel to keep it from stalling. I think it's programming fuel map is calculated for a stock converter and stock injectors. When a stronger converter and larger injectors are put in, then throw in winter grade fuel (and it being ULSD at that) it puts the required amount of fuel needed outside the programmed fueling map. This is just my deduction of the factors that seem to be contributing to the problem. We have to understand the problem thoroughly before we can solve it. Another thought just crossed my mind, there is a setting on my smarty to compensate for larger injectors. I tried it once, but never when I was having stalling issues. I think I'll play with that and/or call MADS to discuss it. If I call them I will bring up the stalling issue and what I think the contributing factors are and see if they think they can create a map variation for a low stall converter. Jim

STODG73, I do have some questions.What size tank(s) are you using and where/how are they mounted?What sort of propane range are you getting compared to your fuel tank range? In other words how often do you find that you need to refuel with propane?How do you know when your propane is getting low? Is there a mountable indicator or gauge to put in the drivers view for monitoring while driving?What injection system do you have?Can you post pictures of the tank mounted in your truck?How difficult was the install of the whole system?You said "With propane you have to worry about predetonation. This will blow head gaskets with the increased pressures."Would you recommend installing head studs and a better gasket before/with the propane system installation? Since I've never experienced predetonation on a diesel what are the indicators that it's happening and what do you do to correct it?Do you feel there is any danger of propane detonation in the manifold?Lastly, if you didn't have the system on your truck, but knew what you now know about propane on diesels. Would you still buy and install a system for your truck?

Ok I understand what you are saying. The wife and I went out to dinner tonight. When we got back home while letting the EGTs drop below 360, I looked at the LOD reading on the SGII which was at 12. With the truck in park I started advancing the throttle, when the rpm increased the LOD reading decreased. At 1850 rpm the LOD registered 0. this indicates to me that LOD on the 2nd gen 5.9 24 valve Cummins is the percentage of Engine Load relative to the possible amount of throttle (injector spray capacity) remaining to maintain the present rpm under an increasing engine load. So at 748 rpm and 12% LOD I had 88% more power that could be applied for work at that RPM. The difference between the LOD we see in our trucks is I am turning an automatic transmission and you are turning a five speed manual. You see much less drag at idle than I do with the low stall triple disk converter. Make sense to you ? Jim Jim

Thank you, that's very useful and enlightening information, exactly what I am looking to find out.

So how does that work? What determines the Maximum and Minimum?

John, that's the Cassiar Highway, runs from Seattle to just west of Watson lake in the Yukon territory. I've never driven that one. I've always gone the ALCAN through watson lake, FT Nelson, FT StJohn, Edmonton, Calgary and Lethebridge because I go to Montana or further east. I've heard it is long distances between fuel stops though. However from Watson lake to anchorage it's a piece of cake. There is only a little over 100 miles of road that is slow (35 to 40 mph) between Destruction bay on lake kluane to the Alaska border at Beaver creek. Seems the Canadians cant keepup with melting perma frost damage and soil shifting to the road. It's quite bad. Jim

according to the SGII manual the definition is "engine loading" "depending on the vehicle it's either the % of power available (I think this means capability of the engine), or the % of power available at the present RPM (I think this roughly equates to throttle setting maintaining the present RPM where closed throttle is 0 and WOT is 99) ." I don't know which category the dodge Cummins 24 valve falls into. I suppose I could figure it out by varying the engine rpm and seeing what the LOD does. I would think that if it's a % of power at a given rpm then LOD should diminish as RPM rises in park. If it's a % of the power available it should stay nearly the same regardless of throttle opening. Right now that's the only definition I have. Jim

I think that is exactly right. My truck idles at 748 - 750 whether it is in drive or neutral/park. Although, I have also seen it idle around 800 in neutral a couple of times, when the engine is warm and the OAT is above 70F. --- Update to the previous post... OK, Just got back from a run to SAMs club and the auto parts store for a few things. With the diesel injector cleaner in a full tank of winter diesel, the stalling issue is not there anymore. So that again points to the winter blend of fuel being the straw that broke the camel's back with the stalling issue. On my next tank of fuel I'm going to put in a dose of Power Service with the ctane along with the 2cycle oil and see what happens. On the statistics side: The OAT today was 32F, When the truck was started the rpms were 748 and the lod was 12. Then high idle kicked in and the rpm rose to 1222 and the LOD went to 0 then started fluxuating between 0 - 5. Then I turned on the PacBrake to facilitate warm up and the rps dropped to 1150, the LOD went to 38, and the EGTs rose to 760. When the IAT reached 83 the high idle kicked off. Idle went to 748, LOD to 30, and EGT to 540. I then shut off the PacBrake and the LOD went to 12 and the EGT to 340. It's interesting that the LOD diminished when the high idle kicked in. What is the ECM doing to diminish the LOD? Is it while in high idle, not allowing the alternator to produce a charge for the batteries to replace the starting energy used. I can't think of anything else off hand that it could do to reduce LOD.

John, You might want to check into this from my OP. "Methanol can generally be purchased where racing fuels are sold. Also, most gas line dryers like "Heet" are simply methanol. Suppliers of industrial chemicals can also supply methanol for a very reasonable price." You might find a local drag strip and talk to the people and drivers there. They probably buy theirs in 55 gal drums and lots of 10 drums or so at a time. you might be able to buy 5 gal or so at a time from one of them. Or find an industrial chemical outlet near you.

Ya, I saw the charts on the snow performance site. I have to take dyno charts/graphs with a grain of salt because they are never 100% repeatable. I've also observed that the dyno numbers do not give a true representation of the real world towing performance where the power is sustained for longer periods of time. They also do not tell you (generally) what else is going on with the truck that may negate the represented power being used for any length of time.It's interesting though.Jim

I just put in a bottle of STP injector cleaner yesterday (one of my stops in town) so I'll know more tonight. When I had the problem last spring, yes, it solved the problem even when cold, the rpms dropped a bunch but it recovered before it stalled.

I went out and started the truck yesterday and the OAT was 38F. I'm sitting there for a minute waiting for the truck to warm up before putting it in gear and I stepped on the brake, I noticed the tach dip just a bit and recover (no difference in the sound of the truck). I got curious so I took my foot off the brake, no change in the tach. I stepped on it again and it dropped and recovered again. So I set the SGII to monitor rpm, and would see about 40 rpm drop and recovery every time i applied the brakes. So just out of curiosity I set the SGII to also monitor LOD . In park at idle the LOD was 18 when I put on the brakes the LOD jumped to 20-21 and then dropped back to 18. I pulled it into drive and the truck died like the key was shut off (when it dies that's how it always happens - bang and it dies) started it and it died three more times before it went into drive and kept running. When it does go in and keep running when the truck is cold it's like it shuts off for a split second but gets fuel and recovers just before it stops turning over, just like when it is first started with the starter. When in drive with my foot on the brake the SGII reports a LOD of 48 with the trans and engine cold.Anyway, I went out to do my thing in town. After the engine was at operating temp and the trans fluid reading 135F, I noted that the SGII LOD readings had changed to 10 at idle in neutral or park and to 36-38 in drive stopped (foot on the brake).My initial deduction from this is that when the brake is applied the brake lights coming on cause a temporary electrical serge to light them (anything electrical coming on requires more energy at start up than when running) putting a temporary increased load on the alternator causing the SGII to register the LOD increase and rpm drop before the ECM and IP electronics can respond with a tad more fuel.Also when the trans fluid is cold it is more viscous and therefore has more drag on the oil bath (wet) TC lockup clutches and the low stall vanes in the fluid coupling. I suspect that this drag, like the brake light coming on is enough to overcome the idling engine (748 RPM) before the ECM and IP electronics can respond with more fuel.When the truck engine and transmission is up to operating temperature it generally only stalls after it has been sitting for 15 minutes or more cooling off. I know the initial thought is it's the IAT. well I also use the SGII to monitor the IAT and after sitting for 10-15 minutes warm the IAT usually reads higher than 120 when I start the truck and after running a few minutes it drops to between 90 and 108 wit the OAT around 38F. Makes me think it's not IAT related.My thoughts are that when the injector cleaner or summer fuel is used it is more volatile to the point that the truck don't stall (or recovers more quickly) when cold. I also suspect that ISX is correct in that the larger injectors aggravate the condition.

From the article in my original post. “With a diesel propane injection system burning propane at approximately a 1:4 ratio to diesel fuel (1 gallon propane per 4 gallons diesel) the increase in exhaust gas temperatures will be minimal and the fuel economy gains will typically pay for the cost of the propane.” At this ratio a 30 lb propane tank would last about 120 gal of diesel fuel. “With the propane injection on and set to initiate at five pounds of boost and give 50 percent of the systems capacity, our mileage increased to an amazing 44 mpg (factoring the diesel fuel used only)! Over a 100-mile test, we used 6 pounds of propane from our 30-pound tank, which cost $18 to fill at the local propane supplier, so the propane used for the test cost $3.60. Diesel fuel for the 100 miles was 2.27 gallons at $3 per gallon for a total of $6.82 in diesel fuel. Added together we get a total of $10.42 for the 100-mile test using propane.” Propane weighs approximately 4.2 (+/- 0.1) pounds. So they used about 1.43 gal of propane to go 100 miles. They also used 2.27 gal of diesel for the 100 miles. At that ratio they would have used 18.9 gal of propane (or 79.38 pounds or about 2 ½ 30 lb tanks) for 30 gal of diesel. One would have to stop 3 times to fill the propane tank for each tank of fuel at this ratio. On the up side in an unloaded truck you would be getting about 1,320 highway miles from a 30 gal tank of diesel. Hey, that's what the math extrapolations say, we all know that the real world is a little different. As an observation when reading the article, they say that the truck without propane got 24mpg (a one ton dually) we don't know if it was a standard trans or auto (I'm guessing std). I will bet they were using the overhead readout for their mileage claims, which would throw off the entire test results. Another thought. according to my SGII my truck (also a 1 ton dually) with an auto consumes 1.38 gph idling in neutral or park. Using 1.38 GPH at 60 mph equates to 43.48 mpg. If I run the truck rpm up in park or neutral the fuel consumption goes up as the rpm increases. So not quite calling their claims lies but find it really hard to believe they use less fuel (44 mpg) at 60 mph (even with propane) than I do at idle stopped in park. Jim

What kind of effect? More/less power? Better/worse fuel mileage? Cooler/hotter EGTs? Lower/higher cost of operation? Rusted exhaust from the water vapor?