So I got my first fuel fill of the Alaska winter fuel blend last week and immediately the stalling when put in drive is back just like my thread of last spring on this problem. http://forum.mopar1973man.com/showthread.php/1584-Problems-Stalling-when-shifting-to-drive-and-hard-starting-when-hot.-Ideas?highlight= I got to thinking after I read JohnFak's thread on the same issue with his truck where new batteries fixed it. http://forum.mopar1973man.com/showthread.php/2401-New-One-truck-stalls-when-moving-into-gear?highlight= Entry #20 I checked my batteries and found they were 5 years old. Well, they are Costco's kirkland brand with a 100 month warranty. I looked at the chart of refund on the batteries and found I was at the 30% refund point. I pulled the batteries and took them to Costco and indeed, they did refund 30% of the purchase price after looking up my sales receipt in their computer (I had misplaced mine :-) ). Then I went and got 2 new batteries (again Kirkland with 100 mo warrenty), and installed and trickle charged them overnight. Didn't fix the stalling. When it was stalling last spring I had edge +80 injectors. I have since replaced them with RV275 injectors (new), so I'm sure that it isn't the injectors as the stalling happens with both sets of injectors. Last spring I found that adding injector cleaner ended the stalling until I added fuel once again. I've been getting my fuel at the Fred Meyers stores. I think I'm going to try another fuel source and see if that helps. I hate to use additives other than 2cycle oil. Any other Ideas? Jim

Cool You gonna put the +80hp back on ?? I am thinking of that next as well as a HX35 or that hybrid I sent. Keep me posted on your stalling and/whatever Happy thanksgiving man

John, I think you would be happier with a HX35 with a 14 cm2 exhaust housing and a smarty to stack with your edge instead of bigger injectors and/or the HX35/40 (mine didn't show me much that I was happier with over the HX35). I saw an increase in mileage when I went from the +80 to the RV275 injectors. And with the setup the only time I see black smoke is if I put on a high smarty tune and the PM3 on 9 for fun, even then it's not bad. After I get the +80s checked and pressure matched at 310 bar I will try them again and see what happens to the mileage. With the 275s, TST PM3, and the smarty I've really got all the power I want or need for the towing and driving I do. I really look for the balance between enough power and mileage not going to the drag strip or pulling on a track. Happy Thanksgiving. Jim

Why the smarty ?? Just gives you a little more throttle/response at bottom end right ?? As well as a couple features ?? From memory they run around $600 new and $400 second hand ? Can get a set of +100HP sticks for $340 on sale (new) ........................or nozzles for like $180.

John, I think you would be happier with a HX35 with a 14 cm2 exhaust housing and a smarty to stack with your edge instead of bigger injectors and/or the HX35/40 (mine didn't show me much that I was happier with over the HX35). I saw an increase in mileage when I went from the +80 to the RV275 injectors. And with the setup the only time I see black smoke is if I put on a high smarty tune and the PM3 on 9 for fun, even then it's not bad. After I get the +80s checked and pressure matched at 310 bar I will try them again and see what happens to the mileage. With the 275s, TST PM3, and the smarty I've really got all the power I want or need for the towing and driving I do. I really look for the balance between enough power and mileage not going to the drag strip or pulling on a track. Happy Thanksgiving. Jim

jim..(or anyone please)....with what i have in my sig.. keep in mine i do not hotrod,sledpull,drag race..etcetc..wanna get rid of my hy35...so the hx35 is better for cooler egts..more boost..and can i use my downpipe?getting one of thosehx35/40..what is the difference in those two anyway?i still have my factory turbo from my '03 6-speed truck..are those any good?

Why the smarty ??

Just gives you a little more throttle/response at bottom end right ?? As well as a couple features ??

From memory they run around $600 new and $400 second hand ?

Can get a set of +100HP sticks for $340 on sale (new) ........................or nozzles for like $180.

Couple of reasons, you can control the injection timing and duration, turns on the high idle, gives a LOT more low end and adds around 60 hp if memory serves plus several other features including an economy tune. It loads into the ECM so you can use it with almost any other programmer. It changes the fuel mappings in the ECM. Yes you are about right on with the cost.

When you put in bigger injectors it just dumps in more fuel all the time because the nozzle holes are bigger, you have no control, it just does it all the time. With a smarty or a programmer you can set what you want in under two minutes without having to open up the motor to change things.

If you buy just nozzles for injectors don't forget you need to get them pop tested and balanced anyway and what does that cost?

Additionally when you buy injectors they almost always want your old ones back to rebuild and resell, so you have no option other than to buy another set when you figure out you don't like the higher hp ones.

My thoughts your money

Jim

--- Update to the previous post...

jim..(or anyone please)....with what i have in my sig..i keep in mine i do not hotrod,sledpull,drag race..etcetc..wanna get rid of my hy35...so the hx35 is better for cooler egts..more boost..and can use my downpipevs.getting one one of thosehx35/40..what is the difference in those two anyway?i still have my factory turbo from my '03 6-speed truck..are those any good?

The HY has a 9cm2 exhaust housing but spools a little faster than a HX that has a 12cm2 housing otherwise it is about the same compressor. There is an aftermarket 14cm2 housing that will give a little cooler exhaust than a 12cm2.

The HX35/40 is a HX35 with a HX40 compressor on it, and flows a little more air at lower pressure which will cool the egts a little more. You can use a 35/40 with a 12cm2 or a 14cm2 housing and both will fit the factory down pipe. the 35/40 is about the only turbo upgrade that does not require a down pipe change.

Additionally when you buy injectors they almost always want your old ones back to rebuild and resell, so you have no option other than to buy another set when you figure out you don't like the higher hp ones. that is what i did to have an extra set on hand...i got a set for $90 from an '01 automatic truck with 90,000 miles...and rv275's dont need a core..and then the stock set i am running in my tuck now...so i have 3 sets total.

Had my edge +80 injectors pop tested today, and they were all the same at 300 bar.I also spent a little time talking to the owner of Advance diesel here in Anchorage about the stalling problem to see if he might have any insight on it.He had several thoughts:1. He ask how old and how many miles were on the vp44. He said that rebuilt vp44 pumps can contribute to stalling and hard start problems because virtually none of the re-builders replace the pump distribution head because it costs them $400 for the part. and that when you get a rebuilt pump the head could have 1K miles on it or 500K miles on it. He went on to state that the re-builders put the pump on a test stand and run it for about an hour and a half going through a series of tests. if it passes the tests it goes out the door. then he went on to say the oil they put through the vp44 for the tests is an oil with high lubricity and is in no way like the fuel the pump will be pumping in the real world. the plungers and other internal parts operate perfectly with the oil but when they get ULSD to pump they don't work as well. If the head is replaced with a new one in the rebuild then everything works as designed, mileage is better, hard starting goes away and stalling virtually disappears.2. He also felt that the stalling could be from transmission fluid pressures being out of specifications and suggested getting the pressures checked to see what was happening when it stalled. He said that some servos could be sticking.3. On fuel mileage: He suggested that lift pump pressures above 10 psi contributed to hard starting and poor fuel mileage. He suggested I adjust the LP to put out 10psi and see what happened to the mileage, he felt that the mileage would go up.I don't buy his theory on the lp fuel pressure and mileage connection. But his other points I think are plausible and should be considered.The other thing he said related to fuel here in Alaska. He said that with the ULSD fuel the refiners here in Alaska (TESORO) are now only making #1 diesel and selling it year around. That way they don't have to bother with blending for temperature changes.I need to do some further inquiries on that issue to believe it.Any of you have any thoughts on these things.Jim

Had my edge +80 injectors pop tested today, and they were all the same at 300 bar. I also spent a little time talking to the owner of Advance diesel here in Anchorage about the stalling problem to see if he might have any insight on it. He had several thoughts: 1. He ask how old and how many miles were on the vp44. He said that rebuilt vp44 pumps can contribute to stalling and hard start problems because virtually none of the re-builders replace the pump distribution head because it costs them $400 for the part. and that when you get a rebuilt pump the head could have 1K miles on it or 500K miles on it. He went on to state that the re-builders put the pump on a test stand and run it for about an hour and a half going through a series of tests. if it passes the tests it goes out the door. then he went on to say the oil they put through the vp44 for the tests is an oil with high lubricity and is in no way like the fuel the pump will be pumping in the real world. the plungers and other internal parts operate perfectly with the oil but when they get ULSD to pump they don't work as well. If the head is replaced with a new one in the rebuild then everything works as designed, mileage is better, hard starting goes away and stalling virtually disappears. 2. He also felt that the stalling could be from transmission fluid pressures being out of specifications and suggested getting the pressures checked to see what was happening when it stalled. He said that some servos could be sticking. 3. On fuel mileage: He suggested that lift pump pressures above 10 psi contributed to hard starting and poor fuel mileage. He suggested I adjust the LP to put out 10psi and see what happened to the mileage, he felt that the mileage would go up. I don't buy his theory on the lp fuel pressure and mileage connection. But his other points I think are plausible and should be considered. The other thing he said related to fuel here in Alaska. He said that with the ULSD fuel the refiners here in Alaska (TESORO) are now only making #1 diesel and selling it year around. That way they don't have to bother with blending for temperature changes. I need to do some further inquiries on that issue to believe it. Any of you have any thoughts on these things. Jim

I totally believe that the problem has to do with the VP44 pump variability in rebuilds as outlined above althogh it is influenced by all the other parameters such as "fluid coupling drag" of the TC and replacement of the injectors with RV275's. This is a "closed loop control system" where the ECU is the brain (controller)and the VP44 is the output actuator, while the injectors highly influence the the "loop" gain and therefore influences the final "loop error" in terms of RPM. Loop Error = setpoint RPM(your foot on the APPS) - measured RPM (from the CPS).Also the tuning parameters in the ECU are different for "ON IDLE" and "OFF IDLE" states wrt the APPS position and accounts for why blips on the throttle can influence the stall outcome. The reason I think the VP44 has the biggest influence is that it has the biggest variability in quality of the rebuild on a very complex and critical component in the loop. Also, there are relatively few owners having this problem - much less than the number of owners with RV275, triple lock TC's, etc. We all end up guessing the cause because we are operating in the dark as only Dodge engineers know the software strategy deployed in the ECM. I doubt if even dealers are told about strategy via TSB's as they have a hard time dealing with even the simpler computer tasks.

Another thought the owner of Advance Diesel had was fuel temperature. He said the hotter the fuel is when it is injected the better it burns. When the outside temp drops the fuel temp in the tank also drops. The cold fuel is less volatile than warm fuel. He also showed me several units designed to use engine coolant to warm the fuel before it goes to the injection pump. This also makes a lot of sense to me as my stalling only happens when the OAT is below about 45 degrees.I'm toying with an idea to put in some sort of heat exchanger using engine coolant and perhaps even a electrical heating element like my OEM fuel filter had. I still have the OEM filter canister intact I may have to look closer at it to see what I can use from it.Advance diesel rebuilds bosch injection pumps just not the VP44 because of the cost of the test bench for them. He said that the electronics failure problem that existed a few years ago really isn't a problem any longer as all rebuilt pumps have had the upgraded electronics module (the module is always replaced) for a number of years now.Jim

JimMeant to update ....... sorry forgot. I found this on my truck - not sure if same for you.If I put the truck DIRECTLY into gear as soon as the engine is started ...... I don't stall.If i start, wait for 5 minutes for engine to warm up ...... stalls every time.I have no idea why ........ but its about 90% effective ........... be curious to see what yours does ?

Jim Meant to update ....... sorry forgot. I found this on my truck - not sure if same for you. If I put the truck DIRECTLY into gear as soon as the engine is started ...... I don't stall. If i start, wait for 5 minutes for engine to warm up ...... stalls every time. I have no idea why ........ but its about 90% effective ........... be curious to see what yours does ?

The APPS has two digital signals as well as the analog signal for "pedal position". These two signals are labelled something like: a) "AT IDLE POSITION" and b)"NOT AT IDLE POSITION". When at idle a) should be TRUE and b) should be FALSE. The ECM should try to maintain a fixed idle RPM of about 850RPM with some "droop". When pedal is pushed then we go to a second mode where we add fuel proportionally to pedal position but do not try to maintain a fixed RPM otherwise this could cause accidents. That is why they use two signals rather than one since this is such a safety issue in "fly by wire" systems. I believe your truck has the APPS out of calibration such that it looks like you are a) =FALSE & b)=TRUE with no foot on pedal. The enginners probably designed it to maintain closed loop speed control for the first 10 seconds of start-up regardless of the two digital signals and that is why a quick Drive engage is okay. You can backprobe these signals at the APPS connector with a DVM and safety pin. TRUE is roughly 2.5 volts or higher(5 volt max possible). FALSE is about 1.0 volts or less. The calibration is done carefully with those screws that are "locktited". The TIMBO APPS gets around this by having a bigger deadband in the potentiometer at idle position. I am taking some educated guesses at some information in the above but I believe it is fairly accurate. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I think it is worth looking into. So few people have this stalling problem that it is because few people have their APPS out of calibration unless they have had someone working on it. Even the new ones come with the bracket calibrated as long as those screws are not moved. The Timbo uses the old bracket without calibration because it has deadband.

BALSIPIn trying to solve this problem I did replace my factory APPS with a Timbo apps and it resulted in no change in the stalling.

Jim Meant to update ....... sorry forgot. I found this on my truck - not sure if same for you. If I put the truck DIRECTLY into gear as soon as the engine is started ...... I don't stall. If i start, wait for 5 minutes for engine to warm up ...... stalls every time. I have no idea why ........ but its about 90% effective ........... be curious to see what yours does ?

Does your tranny go into gear as quick? Meaning does the TQ need to refill a bit, thus having just a bit less drag on the engine? MY older mopars, I would have to run the tranny in N for at least a min or 2 to get the tranny to engage in gear. Just a thought. Now I havent tried that with mine yet.

Does your tranny go into gear as quick? Meaning does the TQ need to refill a bit, thus having just a bit less drag on the engine? MY older mopars, I would have to run the tranny in N for at least a min or 2 to get the tranny to engage in gear. Just a thought. Now I havent tried that with mine yet.

I hate to beat on this again but have a read of this. Applies to Timbo APPS as well but key is to measure voltage at APPS rather than PCM and then back off one turn. Not following this procedure results in failure of achieving "ON IDLE" state (never!)plus other problems. http://www.dieselram.com/showthread.php?t=198780 May have oldest post at bottom of thread so beware of that.

I have recently been driving my Ramcharger. Mainly cause I live close to work and the diesel doesnt even move off the cold peg on the gage. Well had a trip to make this weekend and dusted off the diesel. Sat for about a week. Of course it stalled, and it was the worse it has ever done this. Even blipping the throttle didnt keep it running. I did not keep the throttle down wit hit in gear and on the brakes. I forgot about dropping it right into gear as well. However while fighting it I thought maybe fuel temp might be another factor. One thing, i drove maybe 50 feet. stopped put it into reverse and it almost stalled. (I actually forgot about the stalling until it almost did again) same thing putting it back into D to get going. That was with a full tank and a bottle of STP in there too. I did just install some 7x.10 injectors (about 150hp, in place of the 275's) did a few test runs and it never stalled. Filled up the tank and the stalling started. About 4 years ago it did this once or twice during the winter in Or. I had the 275's and since it never did it again never gave it much thought. Just another idea and some more info on this. So any one have a fuel temp gage?

Yes, I've been thinking for a while now about the fuel temp being a factor because the viscosity of cold fuel is thicker than warm fuel. I think the cold fuel does not atomize as well as warm fuel. I also think that warm fuel will give better mileage. For those who think that 140* fuel will be detrimental to the life of the electronics in the VP44, all I can say is supposedly Bosch solved that problem and it isn't supposed to be an issue any longer, but we won't know until it is tried.

I've started working on a heat exchanger to warm the fuel before it goes to the VP44. What Iv'e found is that the fuel should not be above 140*F because that is the flash point of 143*F. This is different than the auto ignition point of diesel fuel which is 410*F.

The flash point of a volatile liquid is the lowest temperature at which it can vaporize to form an ignitable mixture in air. We don't want the fuel to become a vapor in the fuel lines.

I plan to use engine coolant to warm the fuel. The problem is keeping the fuel below 140*F because the engine coolant is 50*F warmer at engine operating temp. I would like to find a shutoff or control valve that is thermally sensitive to the fuel temp and can be set to close when the fuel temp gets to 135* or so and open up again when the fuel temp drops below 120*. It has to be relatively inexpensive also.

For a prototype I'm thinking I will use a small ball valve, a push pull cable, and a temp gauge in the fuel outlet.

Help anyone can offer in locating a valve that will work automatically would be greatly appreciated.

Jim

Any updates? For a valve what about adapting a heater control valve? Vacuum controlled, just have to test it and see how'the fuel temps match up. Maybe even an old style cable operated temp valve. My 89 RC has one. Just an idea.

Any updates? For a valve what about adapting a heater control valve? Vacuum controlled, just have to test it and see how'the fuel temps match up. Maybe even an old style cable operated temp valve. My 89 RC has one. Just an idea.

Good idea I'll look int it to see if it would work. I've had to put this project on the back burner because of more pressing issues in the personal life, but should be getting back to it soon. Jim

In stock form our Tq Convertors have a single clutch disk that is electronically enegaged when lockup is called for. In the tripple loc Tq convertors there are 3 disks and steels between them being engaged the same way. The reason Dodge engineers build a single disk was to save money and give plenty of clearance for just this situation ( expansion / contraction due to temp changes) When the after market convertor makers figured that they can fit 3 disks in there ( trippleing the load capabilities ) the game was on!!! 3 disks in the space of 1 something has to be compromised. and that is space ( ie torerances ). As temp gets colder fluid get's more dense and steele expands and or contracts, even .001" - .003" makes a huge difference in side there. .005 by most respects is still considered a interferance fit unless high pressure oil fills the gap..

--- Update to the previous post...

I would almost bet money that those of us that are having this problem could benifit from trying a tranny product like this:

http://www.zmax.com/micro_lubricant/automotive/

I haven't tried it yet cause I never payed much mind to the problem. let me know if any of you try it and how it works??? I got to get my ECM/ VP issue ironed out first before I can try it. Just a thought!!!

Hate to bust your bubbles guys but i have the same issues, but my trans is completely stock and the weather was 65 out today.

Its so odd that it did this just the other day it started, i immediately sent Jim a Pm about it.

It sucks this is such a issue as im really starting to wonder if this is a electrical gremlin or if this is something else completely.

I have only had my new 60HP injectors in my truck for a month or so. then again i have a suto failing VP-44, that i leaking fuel out of the shaft seal and into the motor oil.