KATOOM

A transistor is basically an amplifier taking a smaller signal and turning it into a stronger signal. There are also transistors which work like on/off switches too, and really.....I have no idea what type of transistor is in the PSG or what its true purpose is in there. But because transistors are generally amplifiers, this is why some people (including me) feel that there's a reason the transistor fails and potentially that cause is amplification of voltage from some unknown source or reason. Like maybe the process of starting the engine is very taxing on the PSG transistor while it takes in a large surge of voltage as the ECM instructs the VP to begin the fueling process. Thus the "starting cycle" we all know about. Or maybe the the transistor is merely overloaded period. Maybe there needs to be some kind of capacitor wired in or maybe the VP power supply shouldn't be coming from the ECM but rather from a direct 12 volt source via a relay. Again.....I dont know but I'm betting someone somewhere knows.

Found out some more information about the PSG. So far no one can tell me why the PSG fails. Thats the million dollar mystery question apparently..... The concept was tossed out there that maybe it pertains to how the older PSG's were manufactured but other than that there's no understanding why one component would be more problematic over another. In regards to Bosch..... Bosch is no longer building VP44 housings but are still producing PSG's, which is where these new PSG's are supposedly coming from. The PSG's also must be synced with the VP in order to function properly which is why the 1/4 million dollar test bench is necessary. PSG number 029 and 030 are supposed to be an industrial version but only meaning they wont work on the Dodge Cummins VP. I cant confirm whether or not either of those have Pb solder though. Also something very interesting and potentially useful for some people is that the first 10 digits under the PSG bar code are the model version. If you have the numbers 0 281 010 890 then you have the most updated PSG available by Bosch, which has been around for at least 5 - 6 years since I have that code and I bought my pump in late 2008. But if the last digits are 827 then you have the older version PSG which may have been reused on a re-manufactured VP simply because it still worked. But.....that said, I could still see where someone who just bought a VP could have a 890 PSG which was still reused.

You're correct Mike. Blue Chip does not rebuild their own pumps but has a supplier. Back in '09 when I replaced my VP I dont recall there being too many Bosch certified rebuilders around. Maybe its become more common, even though the test bench is around $250k. I dont know what to say. I'm just as confused as ever and will continue to research this topic because I find it interesting. One thing I'm really curious to know is.....where are all these "new" PSG's coming from? Who builds them? With all these vendors claiming new PSG's, there has to be a supplier pumping them out regularly. And really is the PSG as a whole package the problem or is there something in conjunction with the hall sensor, transistor, or the ribbon wire alone? I even found an Australian company who claims quality VP rebuilds with new PSG's and.....offers a TWO YEAR warranty. I dont think I've seen any US company offer that.

In saying all that..... There's no way to verify whether or not your PSG is truly a BRAND NEW unit since we dont know what to look for and if you touch the PSG cover bolts, you void the warranty.

I dont know about that Mike. Thats what I was talking about too..... Over the years we've been told that the rebuilt VP's have "NEW" computers. Even when I purchased my Blue Chip VP I was told that they only use new computers. But if you look at the updated BC website you'll see that they only use new PSG's on their outrageously priced VP's and re-flash the others on the less costly units. There's even other venders now disclosing they dont use new but re-flashed PSG's. Jasper, Thoroughbred, Bluechip.....to list a few. As I also mentioned, there's some way to verify the bar code on the PSG which tells a story we "non-re-builders" arent privy too since there's very little information regarding what those codes mean. Anyone know????? Dont misunderstand my stance here..... I'm not down on all VP suppliers or re-builders either but just that I think the wording used over the years has not been as "honest" as we think whereby the term "new" isnt necessarily "new" like you and I think but rather just new in the sense that its been tested, verified, and re-flashed so there's no history. If Bosch isnt building any new VP housings then what makes anyone think they're making, or still having made, new PSG's? That said, there's still the differences between the PSG-16 and PSG-5. If "new" PSG's are being made by some unknown supplier then why all the euro injection pump companies talking about the VP30-VP44 "repaired" PSG's? You'd think they would just toss the old and install new instead of diving into de-gooping and re-soldering them. Then to add more confusion to this, from what could find out the PSG code ending in 027 is for the 98.5 to '02 SO trucks. The 028 code is for the '01 '02 HO trucks, and the 029 is supposedly the Fed Ex pump which is also supposedly found in RV's and other commercial rigs. Lastly the 030 is supposed to be the latest and best PSG.

Mike I think you're right but also potentially overlooking that just because yours is still going strong doesnt mean all remanufactued VP's are or will go on for hundreds of thousands of miles without a hiccup. We "think" the electronic problem is a result of heat. But from where????? Heat from running, heat from shut down heat soak, heat from ULSD, heat from AC interference, or heat from amperage loads for some unknown reason? That said, I fully agree that plenty of running fuel pressure is critical and having very low to no cranking fuel pressure is best. I also believe that running an additive like 2-stroke oil in the fuel helps keep water issues down and lubrication up. Lastly, making sure you dont run the fuel tank levels too low in summer heat helps with overall fuel temps. So.....whats left? Well electronics are left and what can we do to help them? Putting aside other electrical internal components like the solenoid, at this point it seems there's nothing we can do to help the PSG and really its seeming more clear that no one has a clue why or whats going on in there. Is the problems pertaining to electrical resistance? Is the transistor placed under a considerable load upon start up like some kind of capacitor? We've been told for years that quality rebuilt VP's get brand new PSG's so there's no existing start cycle history but now I've learned thats not exactly true. There are no new computers and all they do is check the computers for function and then re-flash them resetting the start cycle. Thats unfortunate.....and for me, raises a whole bunch of other questions. Like what the heck is the "start cycle" if they can simply remove it by re-flashing? And as I've mentioned before, the PSG technology seems to be far more attentive in Europe where they have more vehicles which use those or have Bosch pumps. I was even reading a British forum whereby someone had theirs fail on something like a BMW and a shop came out and changed the computer.....not the whole injection pump. So is this another transition in our learning curve? Are we to eventually gain a new understanding of what the VP really needs now that the mechanical side has been resolved? Is America just behind the boat simply because technology is now in common rail and who cares about the ol' VP anyways.....

I agree. When you see a picture of a failed transistor, its clear that it got too hot and everything else in there looks normal.

Now that would be revolutionary for these forums. If it worked too.....

Ed, I dont think it was running backwards either. I think the PSG was freaking out due to being cooled off too fast.....or something related to that. Anyone want to guinea pig their truck by placing a fan blowing on the VP after shutdown like I did? Maybe your truck will react the same way.

When this all happened the house fan was turned off and not on the engine and the hood was closed, so no outside interference from that. But I'm surprised to hear you all think the engine was actually running backwards. Being that the VP is electronically controlled, how could it have allowed any level of fueling for that to take place? After trying to forensic the experience back then, I considered that maybe it was running in the 3 cylinder mode but obviously everything was far from the necessary parameters. I've never felt the 3 cylinder mode so thats merely a guess of what it would feel like. I'm not sure..... It was just WEIRD and it seemed to be connected to the auxiliary fan cooling the VP faster than normal.

Havent received my clutch yet as its on backorder. I picked up a pivot ball and spring and I'll see how everything else looks when its apart. I "may" just leave the tranny and t-case together since I have a jack. We'll see.....

I remembered something which happened to me years ago I think is very worth noting on this topic..... I'd try to find the old thread where I wrote about it back then too but it would just be easier to tell the story again. Back about 5 years ago when heat soak from the hot engine to the cooler VP after shutdown was discovered, of course I was particularly concerned about this new problem so coming home and opening the hood became common ritual during the hotter months. Then after feeling the VP still continue to heat up quite a bit even with the hood open, I took it a step further and placed a small house fan laying across the engine area and blowing down directly on the VP. The fan would generally run until some time later in the evening before I'd remember to shut if off. It "seemed" to help with overall temperature increases of the VP so I continued turning the fan on every time I'd come home for a few months, until.......... One day something really odd happened. I went to start the truck and everything seemed normal. Key to ON, all according dash lights and dinging noises, and then crank 'er up. The engine fired as normal BUT within split seconds of initial idle the engine began vibrating ferociously and there was this very loud hissing noise coming from somewhere under the hood. The dash lights went bazzerk, my (then) electric fuel pressure gauge was reading 0, and it felt like all chaos was taking place. I was completely and utterly taken by surprise and didnt know what to do but turn the key OFF. Even more strangely though.....the engine continued to freak out and then shut off on its own. Granted, I tell the story as if this whole episode took 30 minutes but I'd be surprised if from beginning to end was a total of 30 seconds. Clearly no time to do anything but be surprised and completely confused. Certainly no time to open the hood and see what the heck was going on either or try to determine where the hissing noise was coming from since it was obviously related to the shaking motor. Well I restarted the engine and it was like nothing had ever happened. It idled away calmly and effortlessly and I drove to work looking at all gauges and waiting for the beast to give some indication but nothing, and nothing for probably a month too. Not understanding what had happened that glorious morning, I continued to follow my normal regiment of popping the hood and placing the small fan cooling the VP. Then again without notice, one day while starting the truck in the morning before work the whole event happened again. A complete and exact replication of what took place around a month earlier too but this time I was on guard and ready to take note of everything which was taking place so I could establish what freakish thing was going on. I watched the dash lights come on, the fuel pressure gauge saying zero, the engine vibrating violently, the hissing emitting from under the drivers side of the engine compartment. I even tried to get out and open the hood to see what was hissing but I turned the key off in a kneejerk reaction and the engine shut down before I could get a peak under the hood. Now, as unlikely as this sounds..... The best way I can describe what happened was it truly and honestly felt like the engine was turning backwards and RUNNING! And because this is not normal, all electronic devices were reacting the only way they could. But after discussing this with some others and trying to get serious and logical about the situation and what caused it, my only eventual diagnosis was that I was causing the problem by cooling the VP in an non-designed fashion by using the house fan. Somehow and for some reason the electronics went nuts and the engine went violent for a momentary 30 seconds or so. The hissing could only have come from the VP as I dont know of any other device under there which would make that noise either. No matter how I describe it.....it was just crazy and since then I decided not to use the fan anymore and the truck has never repeated the experience. Coincidence or not, I couldnt say and since there's not a single person out there who's ever had anything similar happen to their truck, I will never fully understand what it was. The only thing I can contribute to the situation was the VP cooling too rapidly. Yeah.....sounds stupid right? Nonetheless, I thought it worth telling the story again since it pertains directly towards cooling the VP after shutdown.

Thats the one Mike. But I have to ask..... What happened to that VP? Looks like someone dropped it and kicked it all the way home.

Good to know.

I dont have any pictures of the PSG transistor but here's a video of someone replacing it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STTNDXWEl38 If you Google around you'll see that for some reason the European crowd points to an overheated transistor as the cause for PSG failure. Many pictures of it on Google images too. Hey.....by no means do I think I'm absolutely right.....I'm just looking for answers like everyone else.

You'll see in my previous post Mike where I stated that this very question was to continue to arise..... First off, as you also pointed out, we dont know anything about the ECM construction or materials used. Most likely it also contains Pb free solder but how its manufactured could be very different from the PSG. Unless I'm mistaken, the common failure in the PSG is the transistor. Why that component????? Is there some high current issue going on here no one knows about? I dont know but I do think its a critical point in making that we have two circuit boards sitting about one foot apart yet only one is prone to problems. That tells me that either the ECM is built different or isnt subject to the same electrical properties as the PSG.

I too feel that 130* is nothing, but unfortunately I've put my hand on that PSG before and it was HOT!!!!! How hot?.....I have no idea but now that I have a way to quickly check its temperatures, I'll be posting back with what I find. Yeah.....this is the coolest little device. Why I never bought one before, I dont know. As for the lead free solder, I'm sorta confused. The coldest melting point in one of those links Ed posted was 244*. Clearly if the Pb free solder in the PSG needs to get that hot before melting then this is NOT the problem. But.....the link on tin whiskers is VERY INTERESTING. Great reads Ed! If half of this is true then blamo.....I think you just uncovered the beast which causes all the problems. Again, the question will always arise as to why the ECM doesn't have the same problems but maybe there's a unknown difference in manufacturing between the two which plays a part in reliability. Nonetheless its obvious that tin solder has a historical problem and instead of dealing with the issue logically by getting rid of it, they merely chalked the problems up as good for the consumer market by keeping things rotating. http://www.rfcafe.com/references/resources/tin-whiskers.htm I wasnt happy to read that last paragraph on that page..... And in saying all that, unless I missed something in those links, I didnt see where any issues with solder connectivity issues were a result from heat. So whats that mean????? Is the PSG just doomed to constant failure and the differences in reliability are merely just if you happen to have a good one?

So you're saying it was too hot outside to check? When I checked the first time, it was around 90* outside and I just started the truck. I went for a drive and with the engine completely warmed up I checked again. Both times the voltages were as I noted. By what you're saying, if it was colder outside then I'd see a higher voltage output?

OK guys, this is what I found out..... Voltage at the batteries while the engine was running was 13.6. Voltage at the alternator output was 13.6. Turned on the A/C and fan on high and the voltage was 13.7. At the alternator output, AC voltage was .020-.021. It would fluctuate a lot if I moved the multimeter sensor at all while touching the alternator output but maybe thats completely normal as I was probably reading the connection jump around. After reading those figures, I would have thought that the batteries and alternator output should be closer to 14 volts, and more like 14.5 volts but maybe I'm wrong. The dash gauge was reading a tick over 14 but I'm not sure that means as much as the multimeter I was using. That said, if the ambient temps were around 100* and the engine was well over 200* and the RPM's were higher.....wouldnt you expect the overall voltage in the system to drop and potentially cause the amperage to increase overall?

Well I had a chance to take the truck out for a test with my new toy laser thermometer..... Cool device and this is what I read after a mere 15 miles drive in 90* afternoon temps: Ambient temp- 88* per OHD Fuel tank- 90.7* Top of Raptor fuel pump- 103* (that surprised me) Bottom of Raptor- 97* Raptor fuel outlet- 96* Fuel filter housing lid- 107* Fuel filter housing- 110* Fuel line from filter to VP-103* VP inlet- 112* Top of PSG- 115* (moderate warmth to the touch) VP outlet- 125* After 15-20 minutes shutdown: Ambient temp- 86* per OHD Fuel tank- 91* Top of Raptor fuel pump- 98* Bottom of Raptor- 95* Raptor fuel outlet- 95* Fuel line from filter to VP-105* VP inlet- 103* Top of PSG- 128* (getting pretty hot. OK to touch but much hotter and it would be too uncomfortable to hold my hand on) VP outlet- 130* The laser thermometer tool I bought was good quality so I know its readings are accurate enough but whether or not my laser guiding skills are up to snuff and whether or not there wasnt any outer lying influence affecting those temps.....I couldnt say. But I have plans on carrying the thermometer with me in the truck for many future readings.

Just so I dont go screwing something up..... The only DVM I have is this one. I never really know how to do much with it but the basics. Can anyone explain how I would need to configure it to read off the alternator?

You'd think any rebuilder could easily test that then.....

At this point, I'm not sure how to test for AC noise since my local rebuilder who is a quality but small shop told me that he has no way to test for a specific level of AC noise coming from the alternator. How else would I test this or with the trailer plugged in?

Honestly I ran across the filter when reading this information about proper grounding, how easily its done incorrectly, and some of the problems it can cause. And along those lines, "could" there be a connection with APPS sensor issues or VP issues resulting from alternator voltage? Supposedly its "heat" which harms the VP PSG but could interference overloading play a part? http://www.w8ji.com/negative_lead_to_battery.htm

What about noise filters? Like the DDT noise filter which some people with auto trannys find they need. I understand that this "noise" also affects the APPS as well?.....