Greenlee

This is a great post, you did a great job documenting the tear-down using pictures with descriptions. I made it to the 3rd page, but I keep going back and rereading all that has been added. I have waited a long time to see someone do a tear down. Hope the issue with the knock is not too serious allowing you to get your engine back together with the mods you want to add. Putting down 500 horses with a 5 speed, when do you notice the change when going through the gears, is it by the time you shift into 3rd to 5th? When you start out in 1st to 2nd is it pretty normal compared to stock? Don't bother answering this until you get done with your build, don't want to take you off the subject matter you are dealing with. Thanks for sharing all of this.

Quadzilla and Edge are both choices for boost to fuel control. I don't know much about the wire tap other than it could screw up your VP44 if not done correctly and/or void warranty. I am really in limbo trying to make a good decision with all the information that has been passed on by means of this thread. I have much to do and I feel I need to not only make a short video from the back of my truck showing enough black smoke to produce a small cloud, why, I want to do all that I can to show anybody considering the $2,150.00 Premium Special X VP44 to think twice about it for all the reasons I wish someone had shared with me. I might not have learned as much as I have in this thread but I would be money ahead in the long run if I had bought a STANDARD VP44 with a new computer. If I had someone living near to me I would swap out VPs to prove my point. But I can do it with the video, gauges, and new injectors. I a few weeks I might buy the Edge to control the fuel since i don't believe anything else is going to get the job done. So this is not over at the moment for me. I will have a lot more questions to help my learning curve and understand my Cummins truck. The last piece of news on my 1999 Dodge SLT Laramie Quad Cab 5 speed is I am selling it...to my younger brother who needs a good reliable truck to drive. In addition it's getting more difficult for me to battle it out with a clutch everyday. I want this to be right for him because he will have to learn how to do the maintenance just like I did. I will have to settle for an automatic and I have been looking for some time but cannot find one as clean as the one I have now. I am certain i will have to get a built transmission right off the get go so I will start a thread about it when the time is right. If my deal falls through with my brother I will hold on to the 99 and make the best of it.

You need to lighten up a little Michael, I know you are not CIA or Secret Service. You have explained how you got started to everyone. Sometimes my humor isn't so funny to anyone but me. I am not looking for any trade secrets. I would like to comprehend the diesel world the way you do, it would put the service departments out of business.

I just saw this after my last post. I can see what's going on with the way you explained how it works. I don't understand the math, cm2 or how you got the text up here???? might be a trade secret. From what you are saying is this why a twin turbo setup is better for spooling up and produces less lag? How many upgrades can a stock Cummins handle before you have to start changing out the head bolts and such? Do you have any information on the Turbos used by the 12 valve and 24 valve? Something I can understand.

This is all fantastic information, I searched the internet trying to find an injector that is used in a 24 valve with no luck. Michael, what scientific research firm did you escape from? People like you with 199 IQ's are working in special labs for the government, or course Michael might not be your real name!!! I know you and your associates on this Forum have tons of experience but how to all the engineering and complete comprehension of Diesels fit into all of this in ONE lifetime? I have always been good at mechanical tasks but you go way past this point, you seem to dissect a part until there is nothing left of it, and then explain it. You are right, if I had a boost gauge it would help out, even if I didn't put 2 + 2 together in reaching that conclusion. This is why this Forum is so good. I have learned a tremendous amount of information about my Cummins and how it all works. Still don't understand it all but I can go back and read this again and again until it all clears up. You should put a list of options together on building horse power and torque for the everyday driver. Step by Step on what to do and still drive daily. I would assume it would be several hundred pages per every additional horse power you want to add. I appreciate all of the explanations contributed by every single member who has added experience and knowledge to this thread. What a great support family to get you out of the ditch we all fall into once and a while. Still using 1oz of 2 cycle oil per gallon or diesel fuel since you first explained this. Makes a big difference, the first time I added the 2 cycle to my tank and cranked the engine up it was smooth and quite compared to the prior use of this fuel additive. I am going to change my fuel filter before I change the injectors. Funny thing is once I put the stock injectors back in my truck it started to run better at idle and did not leak down, It took about a week of driving and then it all changed in my favor. Can I control the fuel with an Edge tuner? Which model would work the best for my circumstances?

How does the software fit in to help control fueling. On a stock 24 valve is it 100 percent fuel all of the time or does it work from a certain percent to start and then add more depending on throttle position. When using a bigger injector is the timing retarded or advanced for the additional time it takes to reach pop off pressure? I guess the next thing to be concerned about is how much hype you can read into an advertisement. My VP44 was advertised to work good with 75 HP injectors, no smoke but that's not true. What is true is the suggestion to buy a particular brand Fuel Management System in a big blue box, it all goes hand in hand and the victim is the customer trying to figure out how to recuperate the money lost in the deal.

I appreciate your input on this subject, are there any books that explain what's going on with a turbo from idle to WOT, or magazine articles, or posts that would help me understand what the old breed is preaching? I want to get it right and be able to pass it on when needed. What about a manual on injectors or a book on injectors and so forth? I think you all should get together compare notes and piece a users manual together for beginners. With me the fog will lift momentarily and then settle back down again. But this is the only apparent way I can learn what a Cummins Diesel should act like with modifications and/or improvements.

To: CTcummins24V You had a good roll going on injectors, made good sense to me, I hope you can add some more information on the subject.

This is a good picture explaining what an injector spray should look like. Dynomite did mention I had damaged one of the nozzles with contamination of some sort, especially in the pintle seat area. Give me an idea how this can happen, it would explain how sloppy I might have been during the install. Thanks

I need to find a cam recorder to show everyone how much the Special X VP44 does smoke, it's more than a little puff. Blue Chip expresses the bit about some smoke for any tree huggers that would be upset using a pump that is out of sync with global warming. I will work on this over the week end.

Are the 60hp injectors made by the same company as the 100hp injectors? This really has me confused now. Somebody set me straight on injectors please, If you take a stock injector and nozzle, take it apart, shim the spring tension so that it takes more fuel for it to pop off, wouldn't that increase horse power in an injector. I have read where companies hone the tip of the injectors, work the holes over a little, synchronizing the set together on pop off pressure and so on. I am just guessing on all of this but thinking it trough makes me wonder what's going on in the injector world. I wish somebody could shed some light on all of this without disclosing trade secrets.

I thought if you added a more efficient turbo to the equation that it would produce a higher volume of air and a denser volume of air to mix with the fuel for better ignition of fuel and air. So once again, my Cummins logic is on the seventh floor in a padded room. A cheap turbo would run about $1150.00, so like you suggested an Edge Tuner set on fuel only would be a better choice to manage the smoke.

I have been out again for several weeks, going to Physical Therapy 3 times a week. I am still getting things in order to figure this out. Looking for a small cheap Cam Recorder to video the back of my truck and the amount of smoke produced with the Premium Special X VP44 and stock injectors. Figure out the mechanical gauges I am going to use, get them ordered and installed. Put a report together showing Boost Pressure, Fuel Pressure, and EGT’s temperature. Study any videos showing how to remove the old injectors, CLEAN the surrounding surface on the head. Post Brian Bailey’s reply explaining what happened to an injector during install. Make the right preparations to install the new injectors and connection tubes, find out if there is an order, seat the injector, and insert tube. Alternatively, seat injector and torque the holding plate then install the tubes. Make another short video showing the results of the newly installed injectors and tubes. Make Plans for the next step if there is still too much smoke. Perhaps the next size turbo would make a cleaner burn. A new topic I need to study. I might throw the towel in and ask what direction to go in. Brian Bailey, Injector Sales & Admin Dynomite Diesel Products 13675 Roosevelt Rd SE Monroe, WA 98272 P: 360-794-7974 F: 360-794-6890 I did ask Brian if he could share how injectors are tuned or adjusted provided the information was not a trade secret protected by the Company. This is what Brian wrote. Hi Paul, There are many ways we can change the characteristics of an injector and many of those are indeed trade secrets. Also specifically referring to the smoke level of a given injector is very difficult to quantify because everyone’s tolerance to smoke is going to be very different. This is subjective…. We try extremely hard to make our injectors as clean as possible and in general are known as having extremely clean injectors for their given power output. As for your injectors we did find some minor contamination in the nozzle. Specifically in the pintle seat area which would cause your complaint of excessive smoke/haze. Based on what we saw it is most likely that the contamination was introduced during the install of the injectors. Normally any contamination found is not covered under warranty but we decided to cover it for you. We cleaned the injectors, replaced the nozzles, & confirmed the POP pressures were correct. Hopefully this helps explain things further. After reading this I realized contamination did happen. My son was doing the install, on # 5 cylinder he dropped the new injector in the hole causing it to angle to one side. I told him to pull it back out. The copper washer came off so I put more oil on the end and seated it in the bore. Then I pulled it back out and the washer was back on the nozzle where it should be. This little mishap could have easily caused the problem. I am sorry Brian could not reveal the methods used to work on injectors. I would also say Dynomite Diesel Performance was more than fair helping me. I offered to pay for the service provided but Dynomite Diesel would not consider any additional funds change hands. I could be completely off on the contamination so you can see why I want to know the correct way to remove and install injectors this time around. It would answer questions with the excessive black smoke or clear the issue up. I’m moving slow but I will get it all done ASAP.

Sorry for the delay in answering or responding. I need to study this a little. I appreciate you explaining the way to hook up the fuel gauge properly and have good results. I'm going back to the drawing board to decide on all mechanical or electrically or both. Right now I don't know because as usual it gets complicated. I want to get it right and read a little more articles that you have written on this. Also i am going to write Brian at Dynomite Diesel for an explanation on what they do to adjust injectors with a history of their business to add to this thread. I feel that Dynomite has a quality product or I would not have paid what I did for the set of 75hp injectors. If I can get Brian to respond with some answers I will post them.

Well maybe I didn’t hit the end of the thread yet. You’re killing me Michael over gauges. I spent a lot of time looking at mechanical gauges because you told me about issues, too many failures and to stay away from electric. You are now using some high dollar ISSPro electrical gauges for research. The cost of the electrical average $250 to $275 and rely on first class stepper motors for accuracy along with the sending unit. Parleys Diesel Performance sells both Autometer; I am looking at the Autometer Z-Series with a mechanical boost and electric pyrometer and fuel gauges along with a 3-mount gauge pillar with speaker outlet. I would say it is high dollar with good quality but I am the novice here. I have decided to post pone my injector install until I have a complete set of gauges. I also need to buy a camcorder of some type to record the smoke issue if it still exists. I am going to talk to Brian at Dynomite and ask him to explain how he controlled the smoke by adjusting the injector I bought, maybe it will clear some things up and help somebody else that is as confused as me…of course I might be the only one on the Forum that is confused, Just kidding. What do you think?

I spent several hours online checking out gauges. I called Parleys Diesel Performance and they said it would be no problem to put some packages together with everything needed to install. Parleys Diesel Performance also sells the ISSPro and Autometer. I think there might be a couple of more brands but i did not check.

I guess I will pass on the manifold air horn and exhaust, I'm not close enough to 500 hp yet. By the way I didn't realize how much horsepower was needed to see items work for you. I don't need to waste any money on items that look but do nothing. Something else to learn about is torque management and I'm guessing it is computer controlled. I will shop with our vendors first. Are the ISSPro EV2 the only brand you recommend? Learned another valuable insight about EGTs, again thank you.

I don't know what I did but everything I wrote to answer you went away at Warp Drive so I will start over. When I bought the VP44 Special X pump the description of the pump said a couple of things, if you are a tree huger then this pump is not for you because there is a small amount of black smoke that comes out the tail pipe when you push hard enough. It's not enough to cause alarm but it is noticeable. The explanation for this is the timing has built in advance so when I cranks up it is at an advanced setting and all it can do is continue to advance. I can see this puff of black smoke especially in 2nd gear and more in 3rd gear and then it fades away by the time I shift into 4th and 5th. It did the same when the smoke was rolling out or control only it started in 1st gear, more in 2nd gear, a entirely new level of smoke in 3rd gear and then it started clearing up in 4th and 5th gears. The first time around it blackened a two lane highway and rose over the top of a semi-truck. Difficult to drive even with just your toe on the pedal. Dynomite Diesel was great to deal with. I am confident in the work they did and I don't believe it was the injectors to begin with. I quoted Brian from an email he sent me: We’ve received your injectors and have made some adjustments so they’re less smoky. Didn’t find any major issues with them so if this doesn’t take care of the smoke issue then there are definitely other issues I’d be concerned about. I called him to explain the other issues and his reply is to start with the injector pump and that's what brought this post to life. I called Chip Fisher for advice but that was a dead end. When I shared with him what injectors I bought and who made them he said "there you go" you get what you pay for. So he blamed Dynomite from the get go and had no fault with his special X pump. I said to Chip what should I have used in place of the 75 hp injectors and he told me RV 45 hp injectors and it didn't matter who made them, go figure that one out. In his description using the Special X pump he mentions some customers using 100 horse or higher injectors but it wouldn't hurt anything except the idle and it would roll like it had a big cam in it. Go ahead and figure that one out too! Long story short everybody is at fault because his pumps are perfect and never go bad. No I'm being sarcastic but I don't have the funds to play with like he has. It wouldn't be so bad if he would give some answers on how the pump advancement might be causing this. What's the difference in stock injectors and 75 hp injectors? I'm not going to tow until I get gauges installed, ISSPro EV2 look like it will run between $550 and $600 including a pillar mount with speaker. I have put 10,000 miles on this truck since I bought it 2 years ago so it's all still new to me. I will do my best to get a video of the smoke, Mike or someone will have to post it for me but I am hoping it will be much better this time around. How is watching the EGTs going to help me? I lost you on that. I still want a intake manifold air horn and exhaust but the way things are adding up it won't be anytime soon. My truck is in great shape, no body damage, original White paint with a light Grey painted on the rocker panels. No rust anywhere and clean on the under carriage. I don't know how Dodge's should pull in 3rd gear but mine is a beast and really takes off in 3rd, 4th, and 5th gears. Some of this is the VP44 setup. The test will be when it's all changed out and ready for a test drive.

McMaster-Carr is a great source for anything you could want, I ordered items for over 11 years online. Sill have an old catalog. Great idea on the Water Hammer effect, how far away is it mounted from the VP44? I agree, Great Information for any one who wants to learn more about the VP44

Boost might not be an issue for me but I am going to check it and make certain I have no issues there. I know who sells a FMS but I refuse to invest any more dollars in the products...no answer...no money from me. This is what Brian at Dynomite Diesel wrote me in an email: We’ve received your injectors and have made some adjustments so they’re less smoky. Didn’t find any major issues with them so if this doesn’t take care of the smoke issue then there are definitely other issues I’d be concerned about. I went back and copied this, I couldn't remember how it was put so if I mislead any one I am sorry. I understand how the injector works but as far as making adjustments my method would be a 4 lb hammer beating the nozzle end flat and re-drilling the holes. I didn't get a job offer from anyone at Dynomite. So which is it? Darned if I know! When this pump fails I will pull a junk yard pump to send back, I will pull every piece out to look at, throw them all in a box and send it to you. I hope you find out soon what makes the VP44-007 so secretive to service. Hope you get it!

I guess I will have to do some research or call the manufacturer to see if they are using spring/check ball to regulate pressure. I appreciate being educated on this. What is considered a bad boost leak? I know you don't want any boost leak but if the drive ability hasn't changed how much boost do you lose to be noticed. The last time I talked about gauges I got a little turned around and didn't move forward with it. I needed to know the brand (ISSPro EV), thanks again. On the Edge, I thought they made a screen just for monitoring the engine but I didn't consider what you said having all of your eggs in one basket. I get it, good idea by the way. Who makes a tuner that controls the fuel and timing separate and would it be good to use on my truck for fuel management? In case I still have a smoke issue when I change the injectors and connector tubes. Dynomite Diesel adjusted my injectors down a notch or two, said they were good to go. If I still have an issue I should look at the VP44 for the answer. This is the reason I started this thread. I have learned much reading my way through, but if I still have smoke I still have an issue and it could be nothing but the Special X and the way it is mechanically advanced. I regret buying from Blue Chip, not because of the product, but because of the lack of answers to questions I have personally presented to Chip Fisher. It was all fine while buying but now that I have had the product and put 10,000 miles on it, everybody else is at fault and the VP44 is perfect. I have a great VP44 but I can't use a tuner. Maybe it would be cheaper in the long run to buy another VP44 that is stock and put mine up for sale with a big discount. I think we are just about at the end of this one, Poor Mopar1973Man had to eat his lunch on the run because of all the questions, I want to thank all the members who contributed or gave me some great ideas to work on. Isn't this the best Forum on the Web!!!

Thanks for making it more clear on the operation of the VP44. I run 2 cycle oil in my fuel, makes a tremendous difference. I bought what I could afford at the time and that is how I ended up with a Raptor 100 gph pump. What pumps use a spring and check ball to regulate pressure? Every time I ask a question and get an answer I have a dozen more questions that come into play, this is constant learning if you want to be educated on taking care of your Cummins. It opens more issues to deal with. I need to build a boost device to check my boost, I thought you could use a spray bottle and some diesel fuel, what an idiot. I also need to figure a way to instal gauges...boost, fuel, and egts. I think I am spinning my wheels not knowing my engine settings and just like bjytech suggested on the smoke, I might have a boost leak and not know it. I know you are sold on mechanical gauges but what about the Edge screen that is just for keeping up with engine functionality, is it accurate enough or is a pillar setup better? I just looked a the thread on checking your alternator for AC leakage, I have a Fluke 75 multimeter to use. I guess I will be heading to the hardware store to round up what I need.

Michael I just noticed the tone rings position, do the 3 rollers push out and go in to follow the inside cam design of the ring?

I saved the pictures to study later. This explanation and description helps clear up a lot of questions but I wish I had one to take apart to physically see the functions. I went back to the exploded view of the VP44, what a great diagram showing the order of it all goes together. How in the world does a person sit down and design this? He would have to have a factory backing him up to fabricate and heat treat all that is involved. I wonder how many pumps Bosch went through to work the bugs out. The pump reminds me of a VW oil pump and some oil pumps used on some V8 gas engines. Thank you for putting this together Michael, I am positive it cleared up a lot of questions for all who viewed this post. How far does the timing piston move in the housing for advance and retarded timing? Does the ball bearing ride against the rollers that compress the fuel to 4500psi? Does the fuel pressure remain constant regardless of the RPMs, I know there is a drop in pressure at the filter or fuel in at the VP44 but does it change in the pump? I don't know much about the "Cracked Diaphragm" conspiracy but after reading your description that it is a harden steel plate covered with plastic I have an idea. HOW EMBARRASSING TO MISS SPELL CUMMINS , I LET THE SPELLING CHECK TAKE OVER AND DIDN'T DOUBLE CHECK IT'S CORRECTION, JUST HIT FIX IT. I can see why you want to throw me out of the Forum and repo my truck lol. From what you are saying about the VP44 it is a master piece of engineering provided you have the proper amount of fuel pressure going to it to keep it cool and that the fuel is clean and filtered as best you can. If Dodge had started out with a better lift pump and pressure it might not have been such a disaster for Cummins owners in the beginning. I have a Raptor 100gph lift pump attached to the block where the original Carter pump was located. My pressure was low and that's my fault for not having a mechanical fuel gauge on it for the last 2 years. It was reading 12 psi at idle and 10 psi when you raised the RPMs. I turned it up to 16 psi at idle and 14 psi with added RPMs but when I rechecked it yesterday it now sits at 14 psi at idle. Maybe I need a better lift pump? I am going to turn it up again to 18 psi or 20 psi and see if it holds that pressure. I don't need to buy another injector pump right now. I hate I have issues driving a 5 speed because I don't want an automatic but sometime in the future I will have to change over. I might start another thread on converting mine to an auto with a built transmission, we will see.

Reply to quotes #37, #38, and #39 The video and links were great for information to help me understand the VP44 injection pump. I appreciate the exploded view of the pump showing all the parts and where they are located. I would like to see any pictures that show the fuel going into the pump and how it compresses the fuel into the pressures needed to operate the injectors. I found a video on YouTube showing the fuel going into the injector and lifting it off the seat with pressure from the injector pump. I looked at the picture of the PSG unit, is this the computer that goes through the heat cycles? How does it control the timing in the pump and from 0 degrees how far can it advance the timing in degrees? Can you send me some pictures of the working parts that cause the fuel pressure and pictures of the timing mechanism? Maybe the newly adjusted injectors will make a big difference in the smoke that was pouring out the exhaust. Regardless I need to know how to deal with this issue, make adjustments or add more devices as needed to continue driving a dependable Cummings.