Custom injectors

[Silverwolf2691]

Random question and trying to gather info.

 

Is it possible to get a set of injectors custom made? Like take a set of your 8x.009 (125hp)injectors and get a set made larger like 8x.0105 or 8x.011?

 

Also is there any benefit to having multiple sized holes on one injector like 4x.012 and 4x.008 (just random numbers)? Get the benefit of finer spray with the smaller nozzles, and penetration of a larger holes for boost and rpm.. Or im off base and its a worst of both worlds.. im not sure, thats why im asking lol  

 

My Thought is the faster ignition of the finer spray would help ignite the larger streams for a more complete burn.. and the larger streams would have the piercing power to overcome rpm or high boost 

[dieselautopower]

What is your goal and HP requirement?  We can do a lot.  5, 6, 7, 8 hole, vco, sac, high/ low patters, spray angle modification,  pintle mod, stroke, extrude honing.

 

I have a set of large sac 150HP 8x.0095 that are high low spray ( faster spooling).  and a set of 8x.0105 that are the same at about 250HP  Large sac = sometimes haze at idle, but they make great top end power.

[Silverwolf2691]

Goal is a work stock sled puller that i can still drive on the street. I dont really have a hp goal. I know thats not a good thing in this realm.. if i had to put a number range, 5-600hp but im not dead set on that..

 

I guess im also at a point of i dont fully know what to ask for..  sac vs vco, hole count, spray angle.. its hard to pin down what to ask for with 7+ year old information, or really nebulous info (spray angle.. finding out what to ask for in a competition setting [when you can specify what you want] is hazy.. or i havent looked hard enough).

 

I also dont know whether to stepping stone up in stages or set up for the final build..

 

Final build idea is a quad 4k and a 64 or 66mm turbo (probably stick with going to a 64.5/68/12), still be able to drive on the street occasionally (spare vehicle type status), planning on a fully ported head from D&J, steed speed exhaust manifold, SO or Scheid lightning 2 vp44 (only when my current vp44 goes though, and probably only the SO pump)..

 

Dream build is a cgi block 6.7 vp44 cummins built up similar but thats gonna be a while for that to come to fruition..

 

i know daily driving and sled pulling are kind of on opposite sides of the spectrum, but thats my reasoning for the turbo size. Plus i think in my turbo thread you said the 63 is a more high altitude turbo, im at sea level to maybe 1500 ft of elevation max for what tracks i go to..

 

I got 3rd place for the year in my club with your 50s, a quad, hx35, no traction bars or suspension stops, and not decent tires.. blew my mind when i got that lol.. also an idea of what hp range my area is at.. 

 

Hope some of this info helps,.

 

What do you mean by high low spray? 2 different spray angles?

[dieselautopower]

3rd place is pretty good for mild mods.  Do you plan on staying with a stock appearing hx35 or stepping up to a s300?  64.5mm is almost the  same weight as the  63mm so I would lean towards a 64/73.4/12 if you want 600HP and fast spool up.  the 68mm turbine is less efficient at/above 550HP due to increasing drive pressure.

 

High/low spray = dual plane and it leads to less interference with the spray so there can be better bowl penetration and more holes.

 

With the Adrenaline you can always reduce the fuel stretch. So you can run some big injectors and have greater control of the injection event.

 

The lightning 2 pump flows about 100cc more so it should make close to an extra 150-200HP over an SO pump.

 

What do you want to start with?

 

 

[Silverwolf2691]

Sorry for the delay.. 

 

Going to an s300/small frame charger. Need to wait for my pulling club to meet to look over or change our rules.

 

You mentioned the 63mm is a high altitude oriented turbo in one of my other threads.. can you expand on that?

 

I'm assuming that injectors are dictated from the turbo so i need that before making a decision on injectors...

 

Thinking about it im gonna go with an so pump when my current one really gets unable to fuel high enough.. still rocking an ho pump for now. 

 

My questions i guess to start..

 

Is there that much difference between sac and vco nozzles? Ive seen anything from sac causing loping issues, sac makes more power until a certain point, vco is quieter, vco is less smoky.. not sure what to think anymore.

 

Higher hole count benefits?

 

The high/low or dual plane nozzle, i think ive seen this as a competition only nozzle with like 12 huge holes stacked on top of each other (2 sets of 6).. what are the benefits in a smaller hole size?

 

Any benefit to changing the spray angle?

 

Lift, stroke, and pintle mods, are there benefits at lower size injectors? I know weston (infinte performance) says one of those is useless i think its lift.. not sure.. hes also not very forthcoming with info why..

 

Benefits of extrude honing? Im assuming your nozzles are edm'd to start with so im guessing its to clean up edges. 

 

Thank you in advance for helping me. Its appreciated. 

[dieselautopower]

Keep me posted.  Happy to help.

[Silverwolf2691]

What are your thoughts on the questions from my previous post?

 

Trying to learn so i have at least a bit of an idea on what to ask for

[dieselautopower]

The answer to most of these is "it depends" and "what are your goals?"  You probably know most of this but others have similar questions so I will add some detail.  There can be individual differences base don the style of nozzle and information in generalities.  There are differing opinions and many of the small differences below are not going to be noticeable in daily driven vehicles.  Others may hive different opinions and different knowledge and experience and I am in favor of learning from those who may correct any misinformation or clumsiness I have below. 

 

 

Is there that much difference between sac and vco nozzles? Ive seen anything from sac causing loping issues, sac makes more power until a certain point, vco is quieter, vco is less smoky.. not sure what to think anymore.  Valve covered orifice (VCO) has the pintle close off the fuel to each hole.  The sac has the pintle close off a hole that leads to the other holes.  A +150HP nozzle flow more than most nozzles that are in Heavy Duty over the road applications. stroke, duration, pressures are different in the larger trucks so they don't need as much flow. The new commonrail nozzles are almost all sac and emissions are very stringent on the new CR.  There are multiple designs of sac nozzle and larger sac typically have the capacity for more flow.  My preference is to do VCO to about 100-150HP and then sac after that.  Smaller sac is likely to have less unburned fuel at the base of the nozzle and haze less than a larger sac.  sac holes are protected as they do not have contact with the pintle so they can be stronger.  Sac need to have enough area on the nozzle to allow for the material to hold together. 

 

Higher hole count benefits?  More holes = more flow, more surface area for atomization and exposure to air and can be a better burn.  Less holes = deeper penetration to the piston bowl and is more important in high rpm/high boost.

 

The high/low or dual plane nozzle, i think ive seen this as a competition only nozzle with like 12 huge holes stacked on top of each other (2 sets of 6).. what are the benefits in a smaller hole size?  Single plane is supposed to give more power, dual plane is supposed to spool faster.  Adding extra holes is a lot more work.  Adding EDM, Hone, tip Mods, extra holes, large feed passages, multiple passages, top feed etc gets expensive.  Some of those custom injectors go for thousands.  .032 triple feeds, top feeds are not my market. 

 

Any benefit to changing the spray angle? Can be.  Depends on injection timing.  Wider spray for less advanced timing. My understanding is  that wider spray offers for better combustion and getting more exposure

 

Lift, stroke, and pintle mods, are there benefits at lower size injectors? I know weston (infinte performance) says one of those is useless i think its lift.. not sure.. hes also not very forthcoming with info why..  Weston has a lot of experience and knowledge.  There is some confusion on the pintle mods and what they mean.  Some people talk about shortening the shoulder on the collar to increase the stroke of the pintle as lift, I would call it stroke.  Stroke increases the length of time of the injection events and we do not do it often or in high numbers. It is easy to do in commonrial injectors with shims.  My understanding is that stroke leads to more smoke for minimal amounts of power increase.  Pintle mod is modifying the tip of the pintle, we like a mild .010" or so as they get bigger to increase response rate and a little more fuel.

 

Benefits of extrude honing? Im assuming your nozzles are edm'd to start with so im guessing its to clean up edges.  EDM to enlarge the hole extrude hone to reduce the coefficient of friction and increase flow. Clean EDM does not really need Extrude hone, and there is a chance to over hone and erode the nozzle and spray characteristics.  EDM overburn is possible too.  We inspect nozzle holes before we send them out.  There are some weak processors that do bad work.  Quality control is important. 

 

 

Size is a weak comparison.  HP is a weak comparison.  Flow is a big deal.  We flow our nozzles with fluid and match them.  A set of 8x.012 large feed honed injectors we sent to a guy running under 6.70s 1/8 on fuel made more power than the 6x.016 he had in there and spool faster and smoke less.  (The 8x.012 he has flows nearly 6LPM and is close to a 6x.020 with EDM only).

 

Lighting 2 pumps should be on our site shortly.

[Silverwolf2691]

I'm starting to see why Weston is so guarded.

 

It also feels like a lot of pick something out of all of the options, see what they come close to, and build off of that for an injector business model. 

 

35 minutes ago, dieselautopower said:

Size is a weak comparison.  HP is a weak comparison.  Flow is a big deal.  We flow our nozzles with fluid and match them.  A set of 8x.012 large feed honed injectors we sent to a guy running under 6.70s 1/8 on fuel made more power than the 6x.016 he had in there and spool faster and smoke less.  (The 8x.012 he has flows nearly 6LPM and is close to a 6x.020 with EDM only).

 

Holy sh!t.. 

 

40 minutes ago, dieselautopower said:

Higher hole count benefits?  More holes = more flow, more surface area for atomization and exposure to air and can be a better burn.  Less holes = deeper penetration to the piston bowl and is more important in high rpm/high boost.

 

I guess the only questions I have left are in regards to the high rpm/high boost hole size.. What is considered high in both of those? Seeing as I want to do a quad 4k eventually, is 4000-4500 rpm worth bringing that (high rpm) into consideration? What about 50-60 psi of boost? (I'm bs'ing the numbers, no data of course). 

 

CompD it feels like, if you are in the sled pulling section, if you aren't in the 5-6k rpm range and like 80+ psi, they give a cold shoulder kind of feel.. But they are one of the better places to get sled pulling info/experiences. I think I'm trying to see where to set the bar on helpful vs excessive for upgrades as well. 

 

I can say this much, no multi/top feeds, most likely no large feeds. For anything else, I really need to know the turbo I'm working with.. 

 

[dieselautopower]

There is a lot of information and it takes a lot of time to do R&D and results.  It does not come cheap.  Truth is there are multiple options and BEST is a relevant term.

  VP44 do not make good power much over 3400rpm, even if it will full fuel. 

 

PM me your phone # an I can be more helpful

[Silverwolf2691]

Month later but just an update, finally having the rules meeting for my pulling club on Jan 16th. Hope to contact you shortly after to discuss injectors and a turbo.

 

Cant come fast enough, I miss driving my second gen..

[Silverwolf2691]

PM sent!