Injector install

[ISX]

I never pin the pump.  That thing is plastic and any movement at all shears it off.  I just eyeball it with the mirror perfectly centered.  That should get it within 1/2 a degree if not better.  If you really wanna cheat, get it at that spot in the window, then instead of putting the engine at TDC for the stock timing, go backwards the degree amount EXTRA that you want.  So if the engine is at absolute TDC and the pump tab is perfectly aligned in the window, then it should be at the timing on the side of the engine block.  We'll say 14*.  So if unlock the pump and move the damper counterclockwise 2* and retorque the pump nut, then it will be at 16*.  That is as cheater as it gets and isn't the most accurate but it's not like it doesn't work.  The accuracy is a factor of the tab in the pump.  The port that shows the tab can actually be adjusted, and hence be out of whack.  I doubt it would be over 2* off but how your truck acts shows that it is probably correct.  Perfect starts, terrible EGTs, all a sign of overly retarded timing.  

 

I use 1 3/16 as well.  I think some sockets are made sloppier than others.  

[rdsutton]

Bj what size socket mm for the nut? ISX THANKS, so I will take pmp pin tab out and break gear nut loose, then Barr engine over CC to 14* balancer mark? Truck should be @ stock timing? Barr engine a TAD more to 16* mark and should be ready to clean shaft & retork nut?

Edited July 16, 2014 by rdsutton

[rdsutton]

ISX I can find the math, Trig. Video and marking the balancer?

[rdsutton]

Bjtec, you change the oil after timing set and put back together?

[ISX]

I measured with calipers and got 1.180" which means 30mm would be it being 1.1811" and 1 3/16 is 1.1875.  

[ISX]

I think you are wrong on the pin it and move it to 14* mark.  

 

TDC is an easy reference so the pump tab uses engine TDC as a reference.  The spill port method is ACTUAL timing degrees.  If the pump is tabbed and the engine is at TDC, then it is at stock timing, but you are at TDC, not 14*, so how can this be?  They put that tab 14* out of phase..  That way you just find TDC, rather than 14*, which is obviously much harder.  So by tabbing the pump and having the engine at TDC, you are at 14*.  By turning the engine backwards another 2*, then you are at 16*.  So you would be 2* from the TDC mark.  

 

It took me a long time to get a perfect understanding of this, cumminsforum didn't help matters.  You just have to remember that the tab is out of phase so that they can use TDC as a reference because it is easy to find.  

[rancherman]

I've probably asked this  before,  but  ISX  refresh my memory!

 

Is   'tabbed'  timing  pretty close to  'actual'  spill port timing?

I've  several  Perkins  that don't even have  a  'mark'..  and   the spill method  is    mandatory for  setting  the  pump..

I was  curious if  you've  taken the time to  see  how  the  two methods  compared!

[ISX]

The more I look at my pump (next to me), the more I wonder if it's adjustable.  When I did the cutaway vid, I didn't really see slot in anything to adjust it.  I need to look deeper into it.  I've heard it can be up to 2* off but if it is a set place on all pumps then the problem could simply be that the pumps range from 12* to 14* stock timing, giving the 2* off on some pumps and dead nuts on others.  

 

From my recollection playing with mine, it was pretty accurate.  Using it to set timing is probably frowned upon but it's not like it wouldn't work.  If you were really good you could measure the exact timing that the tab was at then write it down and you would simply put the engine at TDC, break the nut, then move the damper forward or back the amount extra you wanted.  I've even gone to the point of measuring valve engagement to compare with my damper mark to find TDC using a dial indicator.  

 

There are tons of things you can do with these, just math and measuring.  

[rdsutton]

After SLEEPING on it Yes, ISX after I take pmp pip out , just need to Barr engine over 2* past my TDC mark. I woke up with that on the brain then saw your post.

[ISX]

Yeah.  So theoretically if you pinned the pump (but didn't pin it), and went back 14* or whatever is on the engine data plate, then it would be at spill port closure.  At which point you could pop the gear off and then put the timing on the actual degree you wanted.   Again, that is a very very cheater method..  I'm merely saying in a perfect world, it would work.  

[rdsutton]

Truly a big thanks for the insight and guidance on this. After the timings done, I'm going to tuff out tuning the AFC. Have a spring kit coming, hope that and some luck will do it. Back to the math video you did explaining timing and how to mark the damper? I thought it was in the list of videos? That's a great teaching tool! Send the link so I can watch it again! !

[rancherman]

'frowned upon' ??   are you talking the  spill port method??

 

hmmm,  to me,  that is  the  ultimate   way  for  accurate    timing.  It  removes  all  manufacturing and  wear   variances.

 

I always   find true  tdc,  not by   relying on  the  balancer mark...  but   by  dropping a   valve  down and   measuring   piston  movement.    Sometimes    I've been  shocked  by  how  'off'  the balancer   mark may be!

 

On the other hand,   frowning  may be a  good term too!    It's  quite  a  job to   drop the valve,  find true tdc,   set up  the    spill port   tubing and other  support  paraphernalia...  time consuming,  YES!   Although,  on our  12v's,  popping  only the front  rocker cover off is  a breeze!!     Some  tractors  I have,  I have to  pull about  half the  hydraulic lines out just to  gain  access to  about  24  bolts holding down  a  cast iron valve cover!!

Perhaps   do it once,  for  baseline  info,  (such as   a  fresh rebuild)

I do  mine   when the  engine is   majored,   or    pump/injector work,  even   when the  head is   freshened up...    and     may  go    6-10k hours  until next time..      (300-500k  miles   in  vehicle terms)  

Edited July 17, 2014 by rancherman