Carbur8tr

San Antonio, why what's up?

I agree on all points, and at 110 an hour it would get pricey to get a good bit of data. I'm thinking we could compare 7x.012 @ 300 and 350 at minimum to see what differences we are dealing with. I wonder if Chris would rework my 7x.009s to .012s @300 or 305. Hmmmm

How much do they charge per hour? For the kind of testing I would want to do we're talking about at least 3 separate, hopefully similar, days on the dyno with three different sets of injectors. Gets pricey when you start looking at all that time. And I know it could all be done in one day but I hate working on the truck when it's hot and would prefer to do all pulls when the truck is at a similar state ie coolant/oil temp yada yada. I have a mustang dyno up the road from me I might see if I can touch base with the shop to work a deal. Either way I'm sure it won't be cheap, but I would be interested in getting solid data to back up the duration claim and loss of hp at higher pop. If we could quantify that then we might be able to give better recommendations in the future for injector size vs hp vs smoke. @dieselautopower or @Me78569 would you be interested in getting numbers to reinforce some of this or do you think it would be more noise at this point?

I would say that's being generous. Wouldn't have taken that long if we didn't have to accommodate for the difference between all of the profiles.

I wish we could get someone on the dyno with 3 sets of injectors to see some numbers as well. That would help gauge how much of a loss, if any, that we are seeing with the higher pop pressure.

Trust me I have tried to save you some time and so far have not had any luck. Problem I have been having is that the VBA that excel supports and the functions I've used either do not have a sister in libre or it's simply not supported at all. Moving data around is fine but actually getting it to function to a point where it's usable is the part that I've been struggling with. Also, "tiny" is not the word I would use to describe it haha. @Me78569 can attest to that.

We need to start data logging the stalls. @Me78569 we need to get a spreadsheet going and record all of the data we have on current injectors. IE: Idle Canbus values Stall instances Maybe free rev canbus values or something to help compare what's going on with fueling at what point in the curve

Basic interpretation: injector size still matters but way less now that we have control over fueling which was something never seen up until the quad. Great example would be @Me78569 running 7x.012s right now on a somewhat "stock" sized turbo with little to no change in performance and smoke output. The performance part is where he has room to grow though seeing as though he is not using the full potential of what fuel he has available, nor does he need to for that matter.

What parameters are you currently running? General (semi-proven and supported) rules of thumb: - Decreasing timing in the lower RPMs will help to spool the turbo ( do this through timing reduction not timing sliders) - Increasing canbus can help but only to a certain point, try to find the point where you're getting hazy while accelerating then back down a step or two so you can clear up the smoke. - Timing in the upper RPMs might help just a tad, this one is more debatable than the rest. What I can say on this note is that I've notice the more timing up top seems to help clear the extra fuel I throw at the truck later in the curve. Which from the butt dyno feels like more power so arguably better "spool" in some aspects. Play around with it, no truck is the same and you might find your truck responds better to certain things than others. Also for testing, I would suggest using this to help you out with building/exporting/importing tunes. I'm a little biased towards it but for me it helps speed up adjusting things and visualizing the changes prior to actually running the tune. Plus you can make little tweaks, export, rinse, and repeat however many times you want.

Dang it, ok, I'll have to fix that this evening.

Can you expand a little on the fuel comment? Also a tight converter would certainly not help, injector aside, but the high pop pressure we are testing. Both @Me78569 and @kzimmer have been successful with their high popped injectors. I hope to add to that sometime this weekend if I get the time to install them. Up until this point most of the information on injectors has been hearsay. I don't discredit those who build injectors, nor do I think that they are necessarily wrong, but a thought we do have to consider is that they have an agenda and they have to make money. What the general population wants and needs does not always fall in line with those paving the way for a different thought.

Here's the link. Click

I have a write up floating around somewhere. Took a while but we’ll worth it in my opinion.

@dieselautopower I'm always willing to try something new. Right now I have a set of Chris' SAC 7x.012s at 350 bar on the way. What all were you wanting to collect data on? @Dodgeih Ah I would expect that from Seth as well. Good to know though, never touched base with him on the idea myself.

So your experience with Weston sounds about like mine. All of the information you provided is pretty much what I got back in addition to more or less what was a refusal to build what I was asking for. Not to mention most of what was provided was either common sense, previously expressed "opinions", or more smoke. Never did I really see were anyone, including Weston, brought anything to the table that wasn't either an old state of thought or just being negative towards the conversation. The attitude here amazes me and the fact that he refused the opportunity to make a sale and put money in his pocket also took me back a bit. I think that the VP crowd has grown a little old and stale through the years in terms of performance and general thought. Nothing ground breaking has really been brought to light in a while so things have just solidified a bit which is part of what we are dealing with now. The common thought of big injectors = lots of smoke and requires a big turbo is simply just not the case anymore. Nick has given us the ability to command almost whatever we want with regards to fuel. Now we still have to work with the mechanical limitations, but that's just what we are trying to do right now, work with what we have and tweak it so that we might be able to get a better performing truck all around. It's important here to note that performance does not have to be balls to the wall all out stretch for every last pony. Being responsible while having a truck that performs should not be too much to ask for and these days. And for the last time, YES we know that we are potentially giving up a little power and you know what, I could care less. It's not like we have much to measure anyways, a vp is only good for maybe 650-700 max. I think the days of everyone reaching for the limits of the vp are over. If an educated person wanted big numbers they would find another injection method or buy a common rail.

Just my experience, my box stays plugged in to a 10 amp jumper in the fuse box by the battery as well as the jumper in the cab at all times. I believe that that module has run just off of the jumper from the fuse box in the cab before and worked just fine. I had some issues with wiring when I first installed the quad and eventually ended up lengthening all of the leads and putting it inside the cab right behind the firewall. Pain in the butt, but I like the fact that it is hidden and out of the way. Anyways, because of the location I decided to plug a usb cable in and leave it that way I could flash it without having to dig under the dash. When you first plug it in to the computer the truck will act like the ignition is turned on but really doesn't do anything past that. Load the flash and you're good to go. I've done it this way for over a year now and no issues.

I second this.

I don't think it would be necessary for my application especially considering the manual, but I'll let you know when I have them in.

Also the debate on whether or not it's worth it is definitely something to consider here. All of this is making the assumption that a larger injector can use more pop to clean up low end smoke, but there's obviously limits to all of this.

Right so @kzimmer kinda touched on the direction of that and where I was headed. I know that from past experiences the vp and ecm has not liked you messing too much under 1k and off idle so the thought process there is maybe to avoid that issue we can pull a little bit of wire tap in and see where that lands us. Obviously we have to worry about resolution of the wiretap though and I'm not sure you can get that so might be a fruitless thought.

@Me78569 and @kzimmer I've been reading a bit and thinking that we might be able to take a different approach to the idle issue. So what we have to work with: 1400-1600 bar distributed among 3 injection events due to the rotary design 467-533 theoretical max pop pressure say 10% inefficiency factored that lands us at 420-480 bar Factor in pump age and you're probably even lower that that Fuel injected can be modified by holding the solenoid closed longer allowing more fuel to fill the compression chamber in the pump With that in mind I think we can confidently guesstimate that our ceiling is somewhere in the area of 400 bar. In my opinion this is not a realistic pressure but one that might be functional provided the pump is healthy and there was a way to either modify timing or off idle fuel to prevent possible stalling issues. My thought right now is that the off idle stalling is becoming an issue not because of the pressure the pump can provide, but maybe because the pump cannot accommodate quick enough for the larger amount of fuel required by the larger injectors. Because in the split second of you putting a load on the truck, the rotor is spinning at probably the lowest rpm it will ever encounter which will result in the physical movement of the rotor itself magnifying the problem and the lack of fuel potentially becoming an issue. In theory more fuel will be needed in order to achieve the atomization necessary for the injection event. I guess a way to test this would be to put a hair of wiretap in when tps moves off of 0% when the truck is below 5mph and load is above X%. The wiretap should hold that solenoid shut just a little longer allowing a little more fuel in the chamber. Essentially you would be bumping the throttle a little before you accelerate but just that little bit might help eliminate the stalling. All just thoughts but I'm curious to see what you think and if it might be possible. I'm still trying to find a technical document that has VP44 HO and SO data for exact numbers on the high pressure side. Some of the links below point to a number anywhere from 1400-1600 which is why I used the numbers above. https://www.dieselnet.com/tech/diesel_fi_pln.php http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/98-5-02-powertrain/1839897-bosch-vp44-101-a.html https://www.bluechipdiesel.com/vp44diagnostichelp.html http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/ISB/Vp44.htm

I’m curious myself to see the result. I ran a set of Jacob’s 7x.012 vcos about 3 years ago now and they weren’t horrible but you definitely had to learn how to drive it (pre-Quad days). Not a setup I would let anyone drive unless I knew they had enough feeling in their right foot lol. Anyways, I ended up going with a set of 7x.012s from Chris set at 350 bar, 150 degree cone, sac. Debated a little back and back forth and decided with the higher timing and pop pressure that the pintle not coming into direct contact with the tip might help a little for preventing possible issues with cracking and stress. Again though, this is all precaution. I haven’t seen nor heard of any negative effects on some of the higher popped vco injectors, but regardless I like the thought of having a bit of overhead.

Yes I did on the manifold I just took off last weekend and I have tested this and you are correct. OP, where are you going with this? 3 cylinder idle has a purpose. Are you testing something or simply stating that it's not working like you thought it should. Also you shouldn't be too concerned with EGTs when you're warming up, coolant and oil temp is what you should be more concerned with.

No. You have a great tool that allows you to have the best of both worlds. Virtually smoke free and fuels hard as hell. If you want smoke then you’re in the wrong crowd and don’t take that as me being rude. It’s simply respect for our community.

PM me your email address, I’ll send you a copy.