ISX

No I want the blower motor in the cab to be my "electric fan" while idling. What fun is an electric fan on the radiator that everyone else has, plus it will be heating the cab rather than the atmosphere. Its pure genius

If you would stop keeping up with all those porsche's on corners you wouldn't have all those front end things going out :lol:Right there with you on the last 2 though. Got it down to about 5 min to change the thermostat

Without a fan, I can keep it at any temp I want idling, it slowly warms up and will eventually hit 210 (as high as I let it go while testing that theory, and that was at 10F). BUT, if I turn the heater on full blast, it will drop down to 160 eventually. It would be neat to have some sort of thermostat on the blower motor since full blast will cool it and leaving it off will let it heat up and I don't want to sit in there monitoring it to keep it right at 190.

This explains a lot. http://www.are.com.au/feat/techt/thermostat.htm If that tiny hole is supposed to be the bypass then I don't know what to think. Figured it would be bigger. Plus that bypass thing that I cut off on the thermostat never moved in the pot so I don't see how it would open and close, I imagine it just stayed closed the whole time so the coolant never really circulated until the thermostat finally opened. Which explains why the rest of the engine would get so hot since the thermostat isn't that close to the engine so it wouldn't see the heat as quickly. I might have to stare at it in my truck some more. I think I just realized how it opens when the thermostat opens by getting pushed away. But it still doesn't answer why the thermostat is still junk with the bypass valve disc thing completely removed.

Here are the 2 thermostats. The one with the smaller diameter disc thing is the good one (or the one with the lighter color gold). You can see that I have them to where they are identical but the junk one still does the huge swaying so I just don't get what the deal is with it when the other one, same and everything, works perfect in the same spot and everything.

The bypass hole is what I am trying to figure out. I found out the napa oem junk one is a "bottom bypass". The thermostat I got works perfect, the one meant for a 5.9 V8, it sways between 195-200 like it is supposed to, so finding a working thermostat is not my concern.My concern is that the junk one sways in the truck big time, but not in a pot of boiling water, it doesn't suddenly open full blast like it does in the truck. I have all of it stripped down to make it look exactly like the one that works, and it still doesn't work. I can come up with a dozen excuses about thermostat design but then I can revert back to the fact that it is perfect in boiling water so I don't get what it does in the truck that is different when the other tstat that works sits in there the same and everything. There is no reason why it isn't working. I figured out my mechanical gauge probe has the same threads as my bypass bleed line thing so I am putting it there which will be an inch from the thermostat right in the line of site of it so I can see exactly what that thermostat is seeing for temps.

The one that I have that is junk is a OEM NAPA one, the good one is a NAPA one also but destined for the 5.9 V8. I made a poll to see just how bad it was and it seems the cummins ones are the worst. http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/general-diesel-discussion/346822-thermostats-swaying-coolant-temp.html

The stock ones are the ones that don't work (do all the swaying). I can't figure out what that hole is that the stock thermostat seemed to seal off. After ripping everything off that thermostat and making it as bare as the thermostat that works, the only difference is the design. The one that works is a superstat, the junk one is something else, maybe stant. If the air is out of the system then that bypass should be closed by design. The thermostats act identical in boiling water and the superstat one starts to open at 195 and keeps the truck between 195 and 200 which it is just like that in boiling water. But you put the other thermostat in the truck, and it's a different animal, even after making it identical to the superstat. I don't get it. I am going to do more testing tomorrow and see what else I can figure out.

What junk?

Well I couldn't make heads or tails with the winter fronts so thats that. I did use the IR on the intercooler from the turbo side to the other side and there seemed to be a consistent 30F difference on the aluminum surface. So I will go with the increased IAT temp findings. Other than that, I can't find anything it does. Even if it does increase the IAT's it didn't help my warm up time at all. Thing is, the computerized trucks seem to rely on the IAT's so I guess any and all increases from the frigid air temp would be noticed in timing or something and that is why there would be a mileage increase. Now the other part of the story, the thermostat.. I have been testing that piece of crap since early morning. I found out the POS one is a OEM napa one, not the oem cummins one. Anyhow, I took the working thermostat and the POS thermostat and put them side by side in a pot of boiling water, low and behold the POS one opened sooner, though it should because it is a 180F compared to the new one being a 195. They both fully opened eventually with the POS one beating the good one. I won't bore you with the whole test, unless you want to see it for some reason, as I did record it. So I put the POS one back in the truck and ran it and sure enough, back to 220 and down to 150 swaying it went. I started to look a little closer at the 2 and noticed something about the POS one that the other didn't have. A spring loaded disc that seemed to try and seal itself in a hole. I have no idea what this was for but the one that worked didn't have it so I cut the disc off so it wouldn't be trying to seal itself. Well that didn't work. I stared at it some more and found out I could just pull that whole end off and it would be exactly the same as the thermostat that works. That didn't work either. The only things left are the gasket underneath the POS one since I don't use that on the other one. I don't see how that would make any difference but I am going to try it tomorrow. One interesting thing is how that bypass tube works that seems to be a 12V thing. It has a little pin thing in it that drops if the water is not pushing on it, once the water pushes it seals up so it's like it's not even there. This explains why it doesn't take forever to warm up if it was just a straight through hose. Here is what I had to do to adapt to the smaller design.

I had the cummins specs up the other day from quickserve and the 210F cooling systems was 7psi cap and the 220F systems ran a 15. That is on my 12V though. I asked for a new cap at NAPA a few weeks ago and they gave me a 16 I got a 195-207F thermostat now so I guess everything will be compatible now. Alright here it is. This is using Mike's engine number, figure it would be the same as yours. So I guess I am not sure what was factory.

I actually get a exponential curve going for vent temps (non-recirculating) and coolant temp. I don't know my exact coolant temp until I get to 130 but I can watch the vent temp shoot up from the time I start it. Meaning that I am getting probably the same temp out of my vents as the coolant is. As the coolant gets warmer, then the 2 relationships start to take different paths. From what I can figure, cold air takes on heat more readily than hot air, so any heat in that heater core while the cab is still freezing is going to be easily pulled away by the moving air and blow into the cab. However, there is a point when the heat from outside reaches its limit because of the velocity going through the heater core. You might notice you get hotter air on setting 3 than 4 because it isn't moving as fast so has more time to grab more heat, but then you aren't getting as much flow so it probably works out to heating the cab the same amount. On recirculate, it runs the already hot air through the heater core and you would think it would pull the entire 190F heat out of the heater core, but it doesn't. I have seen around 160F max on recirculate but the temperature difference isn't enough for it to get much more heat than if it weren't on recirculate. It is like a swimming pool being 100F and the air temp being 90F, that water isn't going to cool very much because there isn't much of a difference. Let it get to -10F and now the pool freezes rather quickly. You can put the fan on the lowest setting and that will give you the highest temp since it needs all the time it can get to pull the tiny difference of temperature away from the heater core, but then you have no flow. It is a very tedious setting if you want the most heat, vent settings even come into play (head/defrost/floor/mix..). Recirculate gives the hottest temperature no doubt, but only on your head so the bottom half of the cab remains cold. What I have found to do is put it on recirculate (setting 3) until your head melts, then put it on head/floor (setting 4), the temp will be a little lower but the whole cab will unite as one perfect temperature and then you simply start stepping down on fan speed, then temperature. The only thing is that the 24V's have that compressor on on every setting almost. I will turn my a/c on when it is on the head vent non-recirc tomorrow and see if it drops the output temp.

Well the diesel is a different beast for cold weather. The amount of fuel used cold is slightly increase but just enough to hold idle governor speed. As for preheating the air the 24V do preheat the air only after there is coolant temp to do so... Like my 24V will match dead on for IAT and Outside temps. I start to see the offset about 140*f and then the offset grows as the coolant rises to 190*F and above. Typically the IAT will match cold but rise up to +40*F offset of the outside temp. Then if you got a winter front on the IAT will have a max of +50*F offset typically. Reason for this is the air isn't blowing through the intercoolers all the time. I'm beginning to think that needs to be tested accurately also. How much heat can a turbo sucking in 10F air (or less) that builds 5psi be making.. I think if it were 30F+ it might make a difference but once it gets down to 10F I don't think it stands a chance. It is just like my underhood temps for summer and winter. In the winter it is just too cold to have any heat build, the cold ambient temp strips the heat instantly. The only time it begins to build some heat is under 10mph. It will build considerable heat if you are stopped, but moving you have no chance at all. If the IAT needs to go up, then it should be integrated with the exhaust to steal back some heat, a blocked intercooler won't do anything in the frigid temps as far as I can tell. Hmmm... My fan only stays locked from 1st to 2nd gear then its fully unlocked after that it remains unlocked for the rest of the run... You can't tell me it just stops moving when it unlocks. It is still turning a good number and pulling in air somewhat. According to your winter front page you went from 5-10 mile warm up down to "less than 3 miles" though you said warm up temp was 160-190. I don't know how you could make that any sketchier. Even so, I don't see how I could notice nothing without a fan to make matters worse, and you get such a big increase in heat production while keeping the fan. Something is askew with all this. The only thing I can think of is everyones thermostats somehow are flowing when they shouldn't be. I might take my thermostat housing back off and analyze my old thermostat and it's position in there to figure out why it is crap in the truck but fine in a pot of boiling water.

The IAT is the only thing I can't monitor. I know Mike can and I believe he says it warms it up a little. I have a BHAF that draws from where the airbox used to be. The air going to the filter is just as cold as outside, there is no heat there because I have one of my temp sensors on top of the air filter and in the winter it is always at ambient or a degree above at the max. Summer is a different story as I get 10-15F over ambient. EGT's are no different between running nothing and running cardboard/winter front. The thicker oil raises the EGT up and helps heat the engine up. I don't remember what the amsoil ran at the same temp but I am pretty sure it was a lot lower since it isn't as thick at the same temps as conventional oil.

Got the new water pump in. Seemed to go from 130-190 just as fast as before so I am going to say everything I posted is accurate, but will still try tomorrow morning. Weird thing is even the underhood temps were the same freezing cold with the cardboard covering everything. It needs a whole plate underneath the engine or something. There is no reason it should even need a winter front if the thermostat works. Covering up the radiator shouldn't make any difference at all because it doesn't use the radiator when warming up. This thread just proved it. The engine block is not going to care regardless, the only thing the cold air is hitting is the timing cover which yeah, big whoop. Then it slides down the side of the block which, yeah, there is not much heat transfer that is going to happen with an iron block. Everyone knows this, look at how long it takes for the fire poker stick thing to cool down if someone leaves it next to the fire, iron is not aluminum or copper, it takes forever to change it's temp. Now here is something probably against everyones way of thinking. I think the Cummins OEM thermostats are junk. Think about it, everyone uses them, everyone sees a difference with a winter front or at least thinks they do which means the thermostat is somehow flowing, and everyone sees that incredible gauge swaying. I don't know what part of that makes anyone think the OEM ones are good. The one I put in was for a 5.9 V8 gasser and goes to the proper temp and stays there and the winter front makes no difference (as I just showed). Another fact is that my OEM would wait until 220F before opening, then the temp would drop to 150 and just keep going back and forth, closing the range until it was bouncing between 190 and 200. Now this is not a gauge issue where the thing reads in the back of the head, I found out that is BS also after putting a mechanical gauge in the heater core which runs to the front of the engine and it matches the gauge in the back of the head. The weird thing about this was it was a 180F thermostat and when I stuck it in boiling water, it would start to open at 180 and be fully open soon after, but it wasn't like that in the truck. I just can't figure out what. I looked at how it was installed and everything and it was all in their correctly, the same as this new one I put in, but somehow once you put it in the engine, it becomes a POS. So I don't know what to think of it. The OEM thermostat before that one did the same thing but worked fine in boiling water also. Something is just screwed up in how the OEM ones are installed or something, I just don't know what.What's even more interesting is in the morning the fan clutch is so cold it might as well be locked up so it is pulling all that cold air straight through the radiator even though the winter front is on, I don't even have a fan on it and didn't notice anything so I am beginning to wonder about some things

This morning I blocked the entire radiator off with cardboard, didn't even put a hole in the center. Left the grill inserts in as well. It was 1F outside and maybe 10mph wind. Same route, same speed, same everything cept ambient temp (others were 10F). So even with all that stuff blocking it, there was no change. It was a little longer because of the lower temps but basically the same. This shows that with a thermostat that works, you can block off everything you want but your just blocking stuff that isn't even a part of the circuit (until thermostat opens). I also found it interesting how consistent the premium blue started. http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NhL9ahhmF8 Now there is one thing that happened that may or may not have thrown everything off. Since I didn't have a hole in that cardboard, I stopped on the side of the road and pulled the cardboard out once I had my 190F data. The water pump bearings were shot but no coolant was leaking or anything. I went straight to NAPA and got a new pump, by the time I got home the bearing had disintegrated and coolant was spewing out of it. I know it was still pumping just fine and it wasn't leaking while I did this final test so the results should be accurate. But just to be sure, I am going to get it all fixed and make another run in the morning to see if the times are still identical so I will know for sure that the pump didn't screw up my readings.

I don't know why we have so many posts about this issue but I will try and collaborate on it with as much info as I can think of. It is obviously a very common issue..First of all, you said when it leaked it would just drip, not spew. It probably relieved all the pressure out of the hole as it warmed up so it never got to the point of spewing. A bad radiator cap could also be relieving the pressure by not sealing correctly or just being warn out. The water pump's flow will not be seen in the radiator. You might see a rise and drop of coolant if it had some air in the engine that it purged out, otherwise it will do nothing but increase in volume as the temperature of it increases and eventually relieves to the overflow. The thermostat is the thing I am questioning. If it is screwed up in any way shape or form to where it stays open a little or a lot, it will take forever to heat up and if it stuck fully open, it may take 20-30 miles for the engine to get to 190. Once it reaches that temp however, the radiator should be pressurized regardless of the thermostat's condition as long as it is opening or stuck open. If it is stuck closed then the engine would overheat which doesn't seem to be the issue. From what I could tell the air for the HVAC goes through the evaporator regardless. If the evaporator and or heater core is caked with dust (like mine was) you will have less flow of air coming through the vents, if it is the heater core that is caked then obviously the air won't be able to blow through it and get hot. It can also be caked by a small coolant leak on it and that would build all that green fungus looking stuff all over the heater core. The whole system should pressurize and if it doesn't you have a leak somewhere. I would keep an eye on the overflow tank and see what it is doing. You can get a radiator tester to put where the cap goes to find out of it is pressurizing at all and find out of it is the cap that is bad.

I can see this thread is going to be long lol. Another 2 hours and it will be time for Mike's winter front. Should be the same 10F as this morning. Found out it will be -1F in the morning so we can see how that premium blue works (looking forward to it ). I also forgot that I have my underhood temps (the thing that said 7.9F this morning). That gauge has 2 probes, one is in the air vent and the other is zip tied right to the top of the air filter. Then I have the overhead one that gets its info from the probe right next to the drivers side headlight. I am thinking the winter front *should* raise underhood temps. Have to wait and see. With no fan or shroud on it, the air blows right through unrestricted and in 70F ambient temps I was getting around 10-15F over ambient in the engine compartment. Now that freezing temps have hit, it runs either right at or a degree warmer than ambient. I am going to try and block as much as possible for tomorrows negative temps. --- Update to the previous post... Just made the run with the grill inserts in. Temp, wind, route, everything, it was all identical. I'll probably get fired now though. The underhood temps were the same as ambient, as they were before. EGT's were the same too. Everything was exactly the same as you can see. In other words, from my testing I can't find any difference between running them and running without them. http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gZ7W4IuByc Tomorrow I am going to cover every single thing I can, like I keep saying, then we will see what happens. My theory with all of this has been that the radiator should have nothing to do with anything since it isn't part of the system until the thermostat opens, and if you got a thermostat that works (like I finally got), then it should barely open and it will go to 195 or what have you, and stop. I know it blocks the cold from hitting the engine block but I hardly see the block as something that radiates it's own heat very well so I see it as a non-issue. So far, my theory is proving to be right. Tomorrow will prove it once and for all, for me anyways.

Don't change the subject! All you need is adrenaline and weather is no longer a factor. A lot of times I will run to the end of the field and back before I do anything outside, works good.

I didn't even get cold Gonna have to be in the negatives for me to switch to jeans. I'm wondering if I should block off the entire radiator or just put the grill inserts in. According to the fraudcaster, it will be back to the same temp this evening and since I did that run at 7am (need to figure out how to switch radio clock back an hour lol), it should surely be back to 10F with the windchill and everything by 9pm. Then I can run the grill inserts. Then in the morning block off the radiator, intercooler, everything I can. --- Update to the previous post... Only been 5 hours and the whole truck is back to freezing, will wait for 9pm anyways. Got the grill inserts in so I'm ready. Yes I put them in in shorts and a tshirt hahaha, windchill is -1F right now, I was out there for at least 5 min. It's only cold if your mind is set on how cold it is