HE351ve install / retrofit 2nd Gen Cummins

[Me78569]

It was a late night hah. I'll update the thread today.

[Me78569]

So after the first longish trip ( 100 miles) I am pretty happy with the turbo and very mad at myself.......I forgot to tighten the compressor housing all the day tight.  THANKFULLY no damage, but it was causing my high egt and slow spool issues.  

 

I can say however, I can do 65 mph with the veins %100 open with 0 boost and 0 drive.

[Me78569]

Did some digging today and found a t clamp that was shot and the lower 3.5 to 3 inch elbow on the drivers side has a tear and was leaking.  

 

 

I will see how the egts and smoke is after I get those on the truck.  

[Me78569]

Well I have had the turbo in the truck for a few days.  

I have some EGT issues, and haze issues, but I am almost %100 sure that is due to the large cut I have in one of the boots coming off the intercooler.  

I am going to swing by a place tonight and get a new boot and get that fixed.  


However I have been able to put some 55-65 mph crusing miles on the truck.  I can say that I have 0 issues with leaving the veins %100 open and cruising egt's stay below 800 and I make no smoke.  

The code is set to jump out of the pot if I increase throttle above %25 I think, but it is rare I need that even here in the rockies.  I am able to accelerate from a stop light with the turbo open without any issues.  

I have put nearly 200 miles on the truck and I have used just over 1/4 of a tank.   some of which was going up a mountain pass and farting around with the skinny pedal.

 

Here is a couple videos from my drive in.

 

First one is me setting the turbo small ~5cm to show that you can make 3-4 psi of boost at 35 mph with about 10% throttle.  Then open the veins up all the way and cruise at 55 with no boost no drive and no smoke. 

 

 

 

and one with the veins %100 open leaving a stop light.

 

[Me78569]

Alright guys. Is this normal for 100 hp injectors no tuner fueling

Slow roll 100% throttle
He 351 100%:

Free Rev to red line
100 hp injector rev:

This is about % 40 throttle


40% throttle: https://youtu.be/vRP7i0AH5pk.

[Me78569]

injectors are back out and sent to dfi to be checked out.  Something is up with how smokey the truck is/was with the 7 x .009 injectors

 

 

Here is 97trxuszj on CFS truck

 

%40 on his truck

 

https://instagram.com/p/4XXLbIOMyi/

 

And %100 on his truck

 

https://instagram.com/p/4XXPqWuMyw/

 

 

HUGE difference from the above.  

[Me78569]

Alright I have moved the install stuff over to an article

 

 

http://articles.mopar1973man.com/2nd-generation-24v-dodge-cummins/26-engine-systems/482-holset-he351ve-install-retrofit-2nd-gen-cummins

[Vais01]

Well I'm amazed that the VGT did not clear up the smoke but at the same rate I did run a HE351VE for some time. What I quickly realized was in my trucks configuration at the time was the VGT could not flow enough air unless I choked down the vanes quite a bit. The negative was when I let off the throttle with the vanes choked down I would receive a notable and multiple bark.

I was running a Fleece VGT controller and I had created several maps and found anything over 33 PSI of boost I would receive this bark when I let off the throttle.

On modern trucks like the 6.7 Cummins the boost tables, fuel maps and several other parameters are used to set vane position to achieve the best possible turbo response, boost and keep the turbo efficient.

If your running a Fleece VGT controller I still have the maps I may be able to send you so you may program the turbo for better results.

Now as far as smoke levels with your DFI 7x.009 injectors what nozzle style did you use?

I myself am running his SAC injectors and see about the same smoke level but I also am currently running a Borg Warner 62/68/.80 turbo with the FMW compressor wheel. At wide open throttle I do produce a haze and my EGT's are manageable.

[Me78569]

Smoke I was seeing was due to an issue with the injecotrs. They were set at ppump preasures.

I am waiting to see if the new injectors fix my issues.

My controller now does vanes based on turbo rpms which helps clean up the smoke too.

[Me78569]

Not sure if you can read code but here is what Hakcenter has in place to keep the turbo from barking.

  constrain(vane_position, min_position, max_position);
  final_vane_position = vane_position;
  // Vane smoothing between large values
  if (turbo_rpm < top_end_rpm) {
    if (vane_position >= last_vane_position + 20 && last_vane_position < max_position - 10) {
      final_vane_position = last_vane_position + 10;
    } else if (vane_position <= last_vane_position - 20 && last_vane_position > min_position + 10) {
      final_vane_position = last_vane_position - 10;
    } else if (vane_position - 10 >= last_vane_position || vane_position + 10 <= last_vane_position) {
      if (vane_position > last_vane_position + 2 && last_vane_position < max_position - 2) {
        final_vane_position = last_vane_position + 2;
      } else if (vane_position < last_vane_position - 2 && last_vane_position > min_position + 2) {
        final_vane_position = last_vane_position - 2;
      }

Effectively it will only move the vanes slowly if the last position is > x amount.  So even if the vanes have been told to move a lot, due to change in conditions, it will only slowly move them. 

 

Injectors are back in and smoke levels are down to what I would consider reasonable for the altitude.   Still not really super happy with them, but they are pretty good ( i am overly picky).   I am sure that at sea level they won't smoke at all so that is what I would expect.  I was hoping for cleaner, but I am not sure if that is possible.  

[Me78569]

Some more fine tuning in place on my code.  I am now "snapping" the turbo closed for a moment then opening back up when you go from idle state to throttle state.  

 

 

Smoke is much better, egts are down, and DD performance is much better.  I am really starting to like this turbo for DD duties.  The torque curve is vastly flatter compared to the hx35. 

 

Last thing on my short list is to address my turbo overspeed issue.  I am able to push the turbo RPMS to 140-150k without much trouble.  I have been opening up the turbo curve more and more and the issue is getting smaller and smaller, but I still need to find the sweet spot for WOT.

[Vais01]

Some more fine tuning in place on my code. I am now "snapping" the turbo closed for a moment then opening back up when you go from idle state to throttle state.

Smoke is much better, egts are down, and DD performance is much better. I am really starting to like this turbo for DD duties. The torque curve is vastly flatter compared to the hx35.

Last thing on my short list is to address my turbo overspeed issue. I am able to push the turbo RPMS to 140-150k without much trouble. I have been opening up the turbo curve more and more and the issue is getting smaller and smaller, but I still need to find the sweet spot for WOT.

I agree the turbo can provide the air required for the truck to produce a flatter torque curve although it's still limited to 60 pounds of air s minute. At 30 psi it will perform fine once you achieve 35 PSI of boost air the turbo will begin to over-speed due to the engine requiring near 65 lb/min of airflow. Basically producing hot air. If I remember the turbo max allowable RPM is 144,000 that is measuring shaft speed.

I've ran into this issue with my truck. In my case removing the VGT and using a larger turbo has helped gain better fuel economy on the highway but I have lost the low RPM power because of the .80 A/R housing providing boost air around 1450 RPM. I could go down to a .70 A/R turbine housing (12 square CM) to increase boost at lower RPM or change torque converter to a 900/400 from Dave. There are many ways to correct this but for my driving style the .80 housing is is doing great.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Vais01

[Me78569]

everything I have read says the compressor side of the he351 is a super hx40.  Holset says the super hx40 is rated to 130,000 rpm at 40psi and moves up to 850 cfm

 

http://www.myholsetturbo.com/40appnotes.html

 

I am seeing much better mpgs above 55 mph with the he351 compared to the hx35. This is because I am able to manually control the vane position with the use of a Potentionmeter.   I am able to do 65 mph with 0psi drive pressure without smoke and with egts sitting around 800*f.  If you need the power, you just have to increase throttle above %25 ( or turn the pot off) and the vanes will snap back down to the rpm based position.  

 

For my goals of no more than 400-450hp it is a pretty good fit.  

[Wild and Free]

How do you know what turbo rpms are? What air restriction is its rated rpm at any given rpm?

 

Altitude, atmospheric pressure, humidity, temperature and a list a mile long will effect this.

 

I like to use a vacuum cleaner as an example for turbo over speeding and air intake restrictions. Put your hand over the end of a vacuum hose and what does the motor do?  Most will say it works harder because it makes more noise, but in reality is went into a vacuum and is working less hence why the motor sped up in a vacuum state having less to no air to pump and it speeds up, same happens with a plugged air filter, turbo speeds up since it is not pumping air it can not scavenge.

[Me78569]

I am using the shaft speed sensor on the he351ve to know what the shaft speeds are.  I am printing that info on the lcd screen in cab connected to the arduino. I can push it past 140k without much hassle.  However the specs on the compressor wheel are not widely know as it is a holset turbo.

 

 

 

Issue I am trying to resolve is keeping the turbo from running outside of its efficiency ranges like you are talking about above, if it is just spinning like crazy it won't be pulling in air like it was engineered to.  Since it is a variable exhaust housing I can tune it to open the vanes just enough to keep it from overspinning.  I just have to tune and test and tune and test .  testing and tuning is the only way to fine tune the setup for my truck.

[Vais01]

everything I have read says the compressor side of the he351 is a super hx40. Holset says the super hx40 is rated to 130,000 rpm at 40psi and moves up to 850 cfm

http://www.myholsetturbo.com/40appnotes.html

I am seeing much better mpgs above 55 mph with the he351 compared to the hx35. This is because I am able to manually control the vane position with the use of a Potentionmeter. I am able to do 65 mph with 0psi drive pressure without smoke and with egts sitting around 800*f. If you need the power, you just have to increase throttle above %25 ( or turn the pot off) and the vanes will snap back down to the rpm based position.

For my goals of no more than 400-450hp it is a pretty good fit.

Holset states the air flow is over 850 CFM and the wastegate preset to 40 PSI. That means if 40 psi is the max preset the turbo can produce a whopping 77 lb/min of airflow and that equates to 1065 CFM of air at 3200 RPM.

This is a massive amount of air from this turbo but would make the turbo too small for the 6.7 Cummins which would require about 80 lb/min and 1107 CFM at 35 PSI of boost.

The tricky part is that with a max pressure ratio of 4.5 that would mean the max boost capable of this turbo at 2800 RPM (Max rated power) is right in the ball park of 40.5 PSI. It calls for 940 CFM and around 68 lb/min.

For a modified 5.9 this is perfect and sets the point on the compressor map right in the .76 efficiency window.

The only thing is through all my testing the VGT and my trucks configuration it could not provide enough boost or airflow to keep the EGT'S below 1300 wide open. This is no problem for my current turbo.

[Wild and Free]

Just learned sumtin, didn't know they has a shaft speed sensor in them now.

[Me78569]

Thanks for the quick turbo math lesson.  Good for my needs haha.  

 

 

Wild, yep it is pretty nifty.  Makes for coding possibilities that are pretty cool.  Most importantly now that everything is paid for it gives me something to tinker with without spending money.  I still feel I can make the code work better for all around driving.  the rpm maps that I have right now are a little notchy,  keep in mind I am pretty picky when it comes to stuff so most likely wouldn't even notice.  

 

My wife loves that I can tinker without spending money haha.

[Vais01]

Thanks for the quick turbo math lesson. Good for my needs haha.

Wild, yep it is pretty nifty. Makes for coding possibilities that are pretty cool. Most importantly now that everything is paid for it gives me something to tinker with without spending money. I still feel I can make the code work better for all around driving. the rpm maps that I have right now are a little notchy, keep in mind I am pretty picky when it comes to stuff so most likely wouldn't even notice.

My wife loves that I can tinker without spending money haha.

Been there before. The HE351VE is a different animal all together compared to the HE351CW.

Just a small bit of advice the so called "silencer ring" is not a silencer ring on the HE351VE. It's a compressor surge preventer. There are no compressor map enhancement cuts on the compressor housing like on the HE341, HY35W or the HX35W to prevent surging.

If you tune the turbo correctly upon rapid throttle let off on max boost the turbo should not bark or surge due to back flow. This has to do more with drive pressure than anything else.

I'd like to see a video of the turbo at full boost and rapid throttle lift if you can make one.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Vais01

[Me78569]

It "hiccups" rather than barks now.  I still need  to work out a way to delay the turbo from closing fast on let off.  Shouldn't be hard once I look into since I know what my throttle position is.  I might just raise my walkdown rpm or the rpm that the turbo tried to walk the vane position down so idle rpm is around 12k

 

 

I'll try to get a video soon here.