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cessna

EMISSION TESTING REQUIREMENT

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In Arizona, we have to get our vehicle to pass an exhaust emissions test in order to obtain the annual registration. Dos anyone know whether or not adding 2-cycle injuction oil into the fuel as a lubricant would have any negative affects on this exhaust emissions test?Regards, cessnaTucson, AZ

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hmmmm.. that is an interesting question Cessna.. I wonder... (thinking outloud).. if 2 cycle assists in lubricating your engine thus making it run more effeciently then I would tend to guess (only guess) that 2 cycle would assist in lowering the emmission out of the vehicle as well. I would be really suprised if it made it worse. On the other hand there are other additives that do not lubricate like 2 cycle oil, so I would venture to say that those additives (since they do not help with lubrication) would cause more break down of the metals in the engine thus possibly causing a high emmission test? :confused: How could someone test this theory? Are there emission readers that can purchase? Or maybe get in good with your emissions tester and try one test without 2 cycle then one with 2 cycle and see what the differences would be? I am no expert by any means.... so this is just my :2cents::) M's Maiden

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The emissions testing that I have had done on diesels was only opacity ( smoke ) at different conditions, from snap full throttle from low idle to run on rollers at road speed. A very smokey NA passed - 53 hp Isuzu to a 3208 Cat that smoked cold, I had to cardboard the radiator in 70 F weather to hold the temp up to pass, the next time I cardboarded the radiator and pulled the fan belts in 30 F weather but had to go get a 12x60 trailer to work the engine to get it warmed enough to stop smoking. Cost an extra 40 miles of running. Best solution is to ask the law on diesel emissions - it either has the protacall or gives a reference. Stock turbo diesels have no problem until they are hard to start, modifications that cause over fueling will normally not pass any but the road speed on rolls without help.keydl

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You have emissions testing in Idaho? I thought that it was only the EPA failed cities that were required to do that.keydl

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You have emissions testing in Idaho? I thought that it was only the EPA failed cities that were required to do that. keydl

No not yet for New Meadows, Id... But for larger cities like Boise, ID and such do have emission control testing. :rolleyes Coming to city near you! :confused:

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No testing around my parts!!! Which is the county just North of the county that Shitcago, IL is in!!!! I still have my kitty though!!! :thumbsup

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Phoenix, Denver, Colorado Springs, Tampa, Jacksonville and San Diego have tested. Diesel, propane and gas for fuel, and gas is the only fuel that they have sniffed the tailpipe. For propane they verify if it is dual fuel, for diesel most just listen. Colorado Springs wrote tickets for smokers on the road and once in the yard. Tampa pulled out a machine to compare the tailpipe to an opacity sample. That is where the big tips help by spreading it over a wider space. I got a snap idle at the southern I95 port in Va - but it had a test switch that I set before going in - big cam 400 Cummins turned up to 900 hp with the internals to stand pulling the power on the top side of the trans.The only time that I intended smoke was 30 miles form delivery and the turbo exhaust seal quit sealing. I guess the 3 gallons of oil used in 30 miles resembled mosquito fogging.keydl

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UPDATE...............................................Several months ago I posted a question concerning any possible detrimental effects to adding an additive to the fuel to lubricate the lift pump. My concern was that (due to AZ state imposed emissions testing) the opacity readings might increase substantially causing the vehicle to fail.I never did receive a satisfactory reply to the question. I can now report that adding Stanadyne Lubricity Formula at the recommended concentration does not. I just had the 1999 CTD with 55000 miles on it tested yesterday as required for registration renewal. The opacity limit is 30% and my truck came in at 2%. Just thought that I'd pass that along in case anyone else is interested!Regards, cessna

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So if they are only testing for opacity of the smoke then 2 cycle oil should be a problem. As for my truck in stock form design smoke any differently with or without 2 cycle oil...Or are they testing for other things?

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For diesels, all they test for is opacity. I don't know what the 2-cycle oil would do in the concentrations used. The opacity limit is 30%. That's the Arizona requirement anyway. It all seems a bit ridiculous when our biggest pollution problem is dust!cessna

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If so then I would worry to much about the testing... Basically the testing is how black or dark you smoke is. So if your only a 2% opacity I wouldn't worry at all... Kind of like how they rate window tint but backwards... LOL

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Just to let all concerned know, earlier this year I had to get my diesel 03' ford powerstroke emission tested. I was running 2cycle tcw3 at 1oz per gal during the diesel opacity emission test for the state of WA. where I live. Plus I had my power programmer set on high at the same time, result=passed with flying colors. The 2cycle had no negative effects on the opacity exhaust emissions. Personally, I would have no concerns whatsoever about 2cycle having a negative effect on a emissions test for diesels. Harry

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Harry that is great new I'm glad to here the results of your smog test was a passing grade! I was concerned about that but I guess that proves that 2 cycle oil will not effect emissions testing! :thumbsup Thanks for the news Harry!

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They pay for those 4 gas machines and then use an optical comparison for diesel? There are some things that they do not want to become general knowledge, that diesel is far lower in most of the advertised bad stuff than gas and neither are run on a dyno at full power. There the difference ( at factory settings ) is really shocking.keydl

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They pay for those 4 gas machines and then use an optical comparison for diesel? There are some things that they do not want to become general knowledge, that diesel is far lower in most of the advertised bad stuff than gas and neither are run on a dyno at full power. There the difference ( at factory settings ) is really shocking.

keydl

So what is the difference??? :confused: I wanna learn... :smart

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Diesels are much cleaner than gas - at the time that I had access to a 3 gas machine the numbers were on the order of 10% on 2 of the 3, unburned fuel and CO - NOx were about 1/2 of gas. The procedure was at idle and 2k rpm and at 6k feet elevation. That and the low number of diesel is why they were excluded in most of the air pollution legislation. I don't think that they gave consideration to the generally better quality of the people pulling wrenches skillset when writing legislation or the 1/4 million miles that most will make with only a valve adjustment. That they chose optical methods reflects the differences because a bad smoker will often pass gas requirements for pollution. The Cat 3208 in an F700 passed on a 4 gas after a smoke ticket with no changes and was signed off with the printout attached for the state to clear the fixit ticket. It just smoked white until it had a load on, I kept a winter front on it year round, other than pulling out of Chandler, AZ in the late summer. I pulled into town about 10 am and the thermometer on the bank was reading 113 F - that afternoon it got hot and the truck did not have A/C. I took the next A/C course that the shop had avail.:)If they really wanted to limit vehicle pollution, they would set up on the side of the road and read with infared across the road at 2 spaced locations to identify the vehicle and do a pipe sniff 'for cause' and failing both, write a fixit ticket. The tools will fit on a motorcycle but parking would be needed for the sniff test. A visual for stupid tampering might be included but CA's requirement of ALL original equipment pollution be present is likewise stupid. As new equipment comes along better stuff can be retrofitted for less pollution. CA used to set up light checks where they wanted to see the lights work, the wipers. the horn and the floor clearance of the brake pedal. Fixit tickets had no tax attached, make the repair and show it to a LEO or have it signed off at the shop that fixed it.I will have to look at the current pollution limits, gas and diesel are not published in the same news article, but it is now a curiosity. We sold the diesel course at Denver Automotive and Diesel College as the coming thing with the early 70's pollution legislation.keydl

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Interesting stuff there Keydl. Over 4yrs ago, I used to be an emission test and repair tech in CA for many yrs along with my regular dealership work for MBZ. In 1996 we started using a dynamometer for testing the 5th gas(NOX). Whats nice at present, is most of our 3/4 and 1 ton diesel pickups are too heavy for the lightweight dyno's that they are using in the average automotive testing facilities. So they can't test our trucks for NOX, only soot(Opacity) levels out the tailpipe. But, with the dawn of 1/2 ton diesel pickups coming and the more and more stuff being thrown onto the modern diesel engine, such as Blue-Tec or Add Blue Urea injection coming soon, we will likely see more in depth testing and inspection of late model diesel power. You have an interesting point about the infra red testing, we were told back then that they were going to deploy this technology on a mass scale, but then it just disappeared. Must not have fit in to the states budget. All in all though, CA emission testing and most all emission testing is so biased, that its really unfair to the public. Most states, if you have anything thats all wheel drive, it dosen't get run on the rollers, but all two wheel drives do, so people with two wheel drive are the most likely to fail on average and pay the price, because as I'm sure you know, everything changes under load. Harry

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Not much interested in collecting the gross polluter. just throwing work/money to their friends. You ever run through a 'light check' in CA? I think that they quit in the late '60s, just go out and stop a road to check lights, wipers, horn, pedal clearance and of course paperwork.keydl

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In the late 60's I was still a kid on my stingray bicycle riding around trying to avoid hitting all the hippies. I grew up in the SoCal beach community of Ocean Beach in San Diego. But I remember my dad getting pulled over for a ticket in his 57 chevy and the cop checking all his lights. But your right, those infra red machines were supposed to be setup on the on ramps to the freeways, so as to detect gross polluters as they accelerated to get on the freeway, then snapshot a picture of your license plate and issue a citation in the mail saying you have to get your vehicle emission tested. Harry

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Another part of that plan was to set up on the supermarket to catch the ones that never got to the freeway. set mirrors up all over and park the van on the other side, unmarked so they would not know to coast past.keydl

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We moved up here to inland pacific northwest a little over 4yrs ago. We were done with the SoCal rat race, and purchased some acreage in the woods. Our home is about a mile or so from the Idaho border, so I get the advantage of close refueling for diesel in Post Falls ID, where the fuel taxes are much lower than WA, usually diesel ranges from 30-55 cents a gal less than WA. The FlyingJ truck stop is usually packed in Idaho, and all the WA side truck stops are empty, gee I wonder why. Hope I'm not getting too off topic, but I could never go back to the heavy traffic and long commutes. The countryside and wildlife up here is awesome, a true 4 season outdoor paradise, lots of lakes, trails and good country folks and activities, plus a much better place to raise our kids. Now back on topic. Heck, I forgot what I was gonna say. HarryOk, I'm back this evening to get myself back on topic. My feeling is, as time goes on, diesels will be tested as intensively as gassers. How intensive and for what model years? At present, states that are doing emission testing of diesel, are only doing a soot level test or as its called Opacity test for the tailpipe readings only. My fear is, if the EPA implements stricter standards for states emission testing and adopts the same levels of testing as gassers, some of us could be in trouble. Who is that "some of us"? People who have heavily modded there late model emission control equipped diesels. Now don't get me wrong, because this is only speculation on my part, but if testing becomes to the point of looking for "missing and modified" emission equipment, such as EGR/Catalytic Converters and Particulate Traps-DPF as its called/PCV systems/Power Adders or Tuners/Modified Exhaust systems/, some of us could be in a heap of trouble. California, in my view, would likely be the ones to first go this far, as CA has always been the leader in stricter emission standards. Likely the 2008 and newer light trucks and vehicles would see the strictest standards for passing or failing, as these vehicles have the most junk on them now. A point to remember is, if this happens, they can only inspect and test according to the emission equipment that came on that vehicle for that model year of car or truck. So if you truck came with a PCV system and a Catalytic Converter and EGR, then thats all they will be looking for, and likely your emission tailpipe standards will be less strict than say a newer truck that has DPF, but still stricter than a older truck that didn't have a Cat-Converter and EGR. I hope I'm wrong about all I've said so far, but I posted this for some food for thought, as I did emission inspection/testing and repair for many years, and it can easily become a true fact of life whenever the EPA gets involved. Best thing we can do as performance hungry diesel breathing fanatics, is keep as low a profile as possible, try not to blow too much black smoke on crowded freeways, as this will get the unwanted attention that may come to bite us later. Harry

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I added a few lines to my last edited post. Ok, I'm back this evening to get myself back on topic. My feeling is, as time goes on, diesels will be tested as intensively as gassers. How intensive and for what model years? At present, states that are doing emission testing of diesel, are only doing a soot level test or as its called Opacity test for the tailpipe readings only. My fear is, if the EPA implements stricter standards for states emission testing and adopts the same levels of testing as gassers, some of us could be in trouble. Who is that "some of us"? People who have heavily modded there late model emission control equipped diesels. Now don't get me wrong, because this is only speculation on my part, but testing could become to the point of looking for "missing and modified" emission equipment, such as EGR/Catalytic Converters and Particulate Traps-DPF as its called/PCV systems/Power Adders or Tuners/Modified Exhaust systems/, which could put some of us in a heap of trouble with getting our trucks to comply. California, in my view, would likely be the ones to first go this far, as CA has always been the leader in stricter emission standards, worldwide. Likely the 2008 and newer DPF equipped light trucks and vehicles would see the strictest standards for passing or failing, as these vehicles have the most junk on them now. A point to remember is, if this happens, they can only inspect and test according to the emission equipment that came on that vehicle for that model year of car or truck. So if your truck came with a PCV system and a Catalytic Converter and EGR, then thats all they will be looking for, and likely your emission tailpipe standards will be less strict than say a newer truck that has DPF, but still stricter than a older truck that didn't have a Cat-Converter and EGR. I hope I'm wrong about all I've said so far, but I posted this for some food for thought, as I did emission inspection/testing and repair for many years in the republik of CA, and it can easily become a true fact of life whenever the EPA gets motivated to implement new standards. As for what year models will testing be required, for gassers in CA, it goes from present yr models, back to 25yrs old, if I remember right. Best thing one can do as a performance oriented truck owner, is keep as low a profile as possible, try not to blow too much black smoke on crowded freeways, as this will get the unwanted attention of the diesel haters, that may hasten the EPA to come and bite us sooner. Harry

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