Wastegate Questions; any old threads?

[john greenman]

The overflow line tees in with the supply lines coming from the tank. You are correct that they are all ready pressurized (by the pumps in the tank but not by the Cummins engine mounted pump), but I believe only to maybe ~ 4lbs or so; I would need to check. In any case, the returns definitely do not have an unobstructed flow back to tank so that is likely a good point. On the other hand, this set up did work fine for about 30K miles before all of this started with the rebuilding of everything (engine, injection pump, etc.). In any case, I will try the test with the lift pump drawing from and the bypass discharging into an open container and see what happens. Many thanks once again

[ISX]

What exactly is the history of this thing? You say it ran fine for 30k then you rebuilt it or something? What exactly did you do?

[dripley]

is the 12 valve that much differant than the 24valve on the return line. my 24 valve's return line goes straight to the tank and does not tie into the supply line.

[ISX]

is the 12 valve that much differant than the 24valve on the return line. my 24 valve's return line goes straight to the tank and does not tie into the supply line.

That's how it's supposed to be, he has something different going on. He has it in an F350 so it isn't a stock setup. The 12V does have a weird setup stock though. The overflow valve is on the ppump and it goes straight to the tank. However, the return lines on the injectors go back to the fuel filter, so they always have lift pump pressure on them. You can see it all here, skip to 2:15.

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1C8e5Q1l2E

[john greenman]

History: For some stupid reason I got a bug up my butt to have an F350 with a Cummins; seemed like a good idea at the time. Anyway, found this guy who 'specialized in conversions, bought a 1990 F350 (wanted an older one because I was planing on importing it to Canada and import laws more forgiving on 25+ year old vehicles) and put it in his hands. He found a 95 Cummins engine with ~100K miles. I had him pull the head and oil pan so that he could take a close look and reseal the engine as it was reassembled. I also had the auto trans taken out and a 6 speed put in, the diffs regeared and different tires put on. For the first ~7K miles there was a chirp/squeal coming from the bell housing when ever the throttle was hit or backed off from. This was never diagnosed and it eventually went away and I forgot about it until my clutch went out. It went out in stages on a return drive from BC. I was able to limp the 900 miles to where this mechanic lived and he agreed to install a new clutch (there was also a head gasket issue, but that's another story). he installed a really high end clutch and the when he was done the noise was back. Turned out that the thrust washers/spacers on the main bearing were shot all along and the crank was moving for and aft, thus the noise. So he took another block he had, rebuilt it and installed it. We also had the injection pump serviced and he installed new injectors. When all was done, he had someone else set up the pump (I have no idea what was done). It was quasi warranty work. It seems he rushed the job and there have been numerous problems as a result. One was that the tappet cover was leaking; to fix this I had to remove the injection pump. I had only driven the truck ~600 miles before initiating these (and other) repairs. I do not remember whether the truck had more power during this time than it has since. He stopped communicating with me and I got mad and now I have no contact with him (he won't respond) so I have no access to basic information. I have asked the pump rebuilder to try to get in touch with him and see if we can get some basic info and hope this approach works. I need this information so that the correct timing of the pump can be determined. I need to know what pistons were used, what injectors were used, that sort of thing. As of now we are only guessing at the CLP and the timing has been set at 19 BTDC. I don't even know if the head gasket can support this setting (I don't believe I have any head gasket problems at this pt). Forgot to mention, a pyro and boost meter were installed when the engine was rebuilt. As for the final insult, the noise or a similar noise has returned from the bell housing. Its hard to believe the thrust washers have deteriorated in ~5K miles so I don't know what is up and am not focused on that yet, but will ultimately need to deal. Needless to say, I am sorry I ever decided to take this approach, but I have so all I can do is move forward. Does this help? Thx

[ISX]

History: For some stupid reason I got a bug up my butt to have an F350 with a Cummins; seemed like a good idea at the time. Anyway, found this guy who 'specialized in conversions, bought a 1990 F350 (wanted an older one because I was planing on importing it to Canada and import laws more forgiving on 25+ year old vehicles) and put it in his hands. He found a 95 Cummins engine with ~100K miles. I had him pull the head and oil pan so that he could take a close look and reseal the engine as it was reassembled. I also had the auto trans taken out and a 6 speed put in, the diffs regeared and different tires put on. For the first ~7K miles there was a chirp/squeal coming from the bell housing when ever the throttle was hit or backed off from. This was never diagnosed and it eventually went away and I forgot about it until my clutch went out. It went out in stages on a return drive from BC. I was able to limp the 900 miles to where this mechanic lived and he agreed to install a new clutch (there was also a head gasket issue, but that's another story). he installed a really high end clutch and the when he was done the noise was back. Turned out that the thrust washers/spacers on the main bearing were shot all along and the crank was moving for and aft, thus the noise. So he took another block he had, rebuilt it and installed it. We also had the injection pump serviced and he installed new injectors. When all was done, he had someone else set up the pump (I have no idea what was done). It was quasi warranty work. It seems he rushed the job and there have been numerous problems as a result. One was that the tappet cover was leaking; to fix this I had to remove the injection pump. I had only driven the truck ~600 miles before initiating these (and other) repairs. I do not remember whether the truck had more power during this time than it has since. He stopped communicating with me and I got mad and now I have no contact with him (he won't respond) so I have no access to basic information. I have asked the pump rebuilder to try to get in touch with him and see if we can get some basic info and hope this approach works. I need this information so that the correct timing of the pump can be determined. I need to know what pistons were used, what injectors were used, that sort of thing. As of now we are only guessing at the CLP and the timing has been set at 19 BTDC. I don't even know if the head gasket can support this setting (I don't believe I have any head gasket problems at this pt). Forgot to mention, a pyro and boost meter were installed when the engine was rebuilt. As for the final insult, the noise or a similar noise has returned from the bell housing. Its hard to believe the thrust washers have deteriorated in ~5K miles so I don't know what is up and am not focused on that yet, but will ultimately need to deal. Needless to say, I am sorry I ever decided to take this approach, but I have so all I can do is move forward. Does this help? Thx

That's quite a story. Where exactly did he get the engine? You say it's a 95 but did he get it out of a 95 dodge? If it is then you got the wrong CPL. Here is a chart, you need to be looking at the 160HP pump since you said it came with an automatic truck, if it came with the manual then it's the 175, though the timing chart is the same either way, but different than the 215hp numbers you been looking at. http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/FAQ/timing.htm The conversion isn't the issue because a 12V only needs power to the shutoff solenoid to run, there is no ECM running it or anything else. This means anything that happened in the condition of the 12V from donor truck to your truck is entirely the mechanics doings. There are no incompatible things or anything like that, only wrong timing numbers. I would like to see a picture of that return line setup though.

[john greenman]

I used the 215 hp (have the chart) numbers because that was what I understood this engine is now (at least should be) with the pistons, injectors etc. Was this the wrong logic? Thank you

--- Update to the previous post...

BTW, don't know where he got the engine

[ISX]

The chart timing things are based on a number of things INSIDE the ppump. You can mess with injectors and all of that but unless you tear the pump completely apart to change things out, it is still a 160 or 175 pump. The numbers are the same on that chart for either of those so it doesn't matter. That's also the only pump on 95' dodge trucks, unless it was out of something else.

[john greenman]

Actually, I don't know if it came with an automatic truck; my Ford was an auto before the conversion. Hmm. Now I am lost. I have no idea whether this engine was coupled with an auto or manual, I have no idea what the CLP was/is. If what you say is correct, the pump rebuilder (with the best of intentions) led me down the wrong path in choosing the right timing spec. Ahhhhhh!

--- Update to the previous post...

Thinking back, I am fairly sure it was determined (either I was told or it was figured out from the serial number) that it came from a manual, not auto. Not 100% on this point though

[ISX]

It doesn't really matter since they have the same specs as far as timing numbers are concerned. They must have adjusted the plate rather than anything else to be able to get that 15hp bump. I think your issue seems to be more with this fuel pump ordeal than timing, though you should get that fixed as well.

[john greenman]

I agree, but I would like to understand this chart and I don't. May I ask what a CLP and how it is used to determine the correct timing? I was given 6.1mm or .240mm or 19 BTDC by the pump rebuilder, but that was based on a 215 HP engine. I am using a dial indicator to set timing, so if I understand you correctly, I should be using something closer to 4.5mm or .177" of lift height? Either way, I agree that I need to deal with the fuel pressure, what I don't want to be running too advanced without understanding the consequences, both advantageous and disadvantageous. At least one thing I read cautioned about not doing so without special mods to the head or head gasket. Thank you

[ISX]

I think I can figure out a way to figure out what pump you have since you have a dial indicator and can crank the engine and measure plunger lift. I just have to figure out how to derive it from that chart. How are you determining TDC?

The CPL (Control Parts List) is basically like a model version. Kinda like ford (bosch) f150 (p7100) lariat (CPL #)..

I didn't know Fritz had this page but it shows you everything http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/Facts/Cpl.htm

But your have no label on the drivers side of the timing cover case at all?

--- Update to the previous post...

As for understanding the chart, it is using plunger lift and port closure measurements. The barrel has a hole in it called the uhh why does it allude me. Starts with an S Swash plate is all I can think of for some reason. Oh, SPILL port. That hole allows fuel in above the plunger, the plunger goes up (pushing fuel back out, so nothing happens) and then the plunger itself covers the hole, this is the start of compression of the fuel (or start of injection). At THAT exact point is how much lift the plunger goes to get to that point. That is where all of their charts are derived.

I made a video on this a week ago so you can see what exactly happens inside the pump. The groove (helix) in the plunger only varies where the injection ends, the starting point is always the same (unless you have a 215Hp pump and are to the floor but thats for another day lol).

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3S65hqFaUo

[john greenman]

Trusting that when the pin is locked in the gear, it is correct. Haven't made any attempt to go beyond that; maybe I should given the other crap this mechanic has dished out. I actually just found that chart in a google search. It would seem that if I have the pump that I believe I have, I am running at about 22 BTDC which might be a bit much. As far as the lift pump is concerned, they must have check valves in them; from your experience, is there much chance of there being a check valve problem? I have left the pressure gauge hooked up for now; it seems that when I first start the engine, the pressure is up around 25 to 30 psi at idle, but if I rev it, it drops as low as 12 and doesn't go back up very far. Just passing these numbers along (somewhat tentatively as they seem to change from one try to the next) in case they say something. I still haven't tried setting up a remote fuel tank as its been raining.

[ISX]

Trusting that when the pin is locked in the gear, it is correct. Haven't made any attempt to go beyond that; maybe I should given the other crap this mechanic has dished out. I actually just found that chart in a google search. It would seem that if I have the pump that I believe I have, I am running at about 22 BTDC which might be a bit much. As far as the lift pump is concerned, they must have check valves in them; from your experience, is there much chance of there being a check valve problem? I have left the pressure gauge hooked up for now; it seems that when I first start the engine, the pressure is up around 25 to 30 psi at idle, but if I rev it, it drops as low as 12 and doesn't go back up very far. Just passing these numbers along (somewhat tentatively as they seem to change from one try to the next) in case they say something. I still haven't tried setting up a remote fuel tank as its been raining.

I would have timing around 15* if it were me. Those pressures are very low. Either the pumps aren't working right or the overflow valve is weak, though you shouldn't be getting 30psi at idle if it is. The stock lift pumps do go out, new one is $75 at cummins. I haven't messed with them enough to say how they go out exactly, spring inside might get weak or something. If I park on a hill my truck will drain a lot of fuel back to the tank, leading me to believe the lift pump does allow return flow, though I am not 100% yet.

[john greenman]

Great job on the video; Wow! Thank you.

--- Update to the previous post...

Dodge Dealer and another parts store are telling me ~$250. Sounds like you know of a source for $75, at Cummins? If so, that would be great. Thank you (not quite ready to buy as haven't run all above tests, but sounds like I will need to so doing my homework)

--- Update to the previous post...

Sorry, you said Cummins Dealer; have a call into them now.

--- Update to the previous post...

Finally got the test run direct from fuel can, return direct to fuel can. Amazing how much fuel goes through the return. No real change in pressure though. With the filter being as new as it is, I doubt that will make any difference, so looks more and more like lift pump. It also seems that it would be wise to figure out a way way to get that return back to the tank. Won't be easy as it is a two tank system; most likely need to run a line to a solenoid controlled tee, or something to that effect. Yuck!

[ISX]

It shouldn't be going through the return unless the pressure is at overflow valve opening pressure, try clamping (not fully, remember) the return and see if pressure goes up. Don't clamp tight enough to go past 45psi, if it can get that high.

[john greenman]

Again, depending on exact setting of needle, it starts off idling at ~25psi with fuel spilling through. If I pinch off, it raises to ~30 psi, but fuel is still spilling through. If I raise idle, pressure drops to ~15, 20 PSI, fuel still spills through. If I do what one is not meant to do and pinch off completely, doesn't go over 30 psi, fuel doesn't spill through or hardly does. i to 2 minutes of this filled a gallon container. Could I have both a bad valve and a weak lift pump?

--- Update to the previous post...

BTW, plan on changing filter and running test once more as that is last variable (that I can think of).

[ISX]

Your setting of the needle needs to be one spot.. It's either bouncing around or it isn't. It needs to be tightened up until it stops dancing and no tighter. That is the only needle setting that is valid. Kinda like people saying they get 99mpg in a semi truck [on a downhill].. The overflow valve is a ball on a spring, the spring holds the ball sealed until it is overcome by fuel pressure which a new one should open at around 45psi, maybe a little less, you really don't want to run over 45psi because the fuel filter can only handle so much pressure. The spring in that overflow valve gets weak overtime and opens at lower and lower pressures. That valve should remain closed until operating pressure is reached (45psi per new one). When you clamp the line, you are simulating a valve that is shut, so the pressure should build and will keep building until something gives which is why you try and just restrict the line rather than clamp it shut. At idle the pressure is lower but you will still see fuel coming out because the instantaneous pressure is hitting 45psi, but it is taking longer to get to that pressure, therefore the average (needle valved pressure) will be seen more like 20psi because the fuel pump is ran by engine RPM and at idle it isn't pumping very quickly. As speed rises, time between pressure pulses decreases, raising the average PSI you see. I am a little interesting in EXACTLY how the fuel flow goes on your truck. The stock setup goes from the tank (no fuel filter), gets sucked into the lift pump, then goes to the fuel heater, then the fuel filter, then the ppump, then to the injectors, then returns from injectors to the fuel filter. Or the fuel leaves out the overflow and goes back to the tank as a means to regulate pressure since the lift pump does nothing but pump, not regulate. Are you getting all this? I'm trying to get you to understand the logic of how it all works because I am not personally there and you are seeing what everything does that might not make it to the forum so you can diagnose it better yourself, I'm just trying to guide you to be able to do that. It's a very simple design just hard to grasp at times.

[john greenman]

I am totally getting it except for the part about the needle not bdancing; my needle always dances unless the valve is 100% shut and even then it moves ever so slightly;I thought I saw the one in your video do so as well; it is a matter of degree. If I just barely open the valve, let's say a 2 to 5 degree turn, the needle dances about 1 to 2 psi, but it still dances. Not trying to be difficult, just trying to get this right. In any case, if I go with that setting, I am getting 20psi with fuel pouring past the OFV. Even if I pinch off the return line so no fuel comes out, I only get about 25 PSI on that setting. That was why I was beginning to think I may have 2 problems. 1990 F350s have a dual tank system. There is a solenoid controlled valve operated by a switch on the dash that allows the driver to switch between tanks. When you switch tanks, the fuel pumps in the tanks are switched simultaneously. I am not intimately familiar with the details, but that is the general idea. This truck was set up with a manifold on the input part of the lift pump; both tanks supply lines and the return from the injection pump go into this manifold. In order to run return lines to the tanks, I would need to somehow mirror the supply set up. Honestly? It is a lousy system with a lot of over priced components; very convenient when it all works, but fraught with potential problems; at least several recalls on it. I have no fuel heater. I totally understand the logic thanks to all of your help; I certainly did not when i started. In any case, based on fuel flow, etc, I believe my filter is fine (just bought a new one but at $32 I may save it). It would seem that with not being able to get more than 25 to 30 psi no matter how I restrict fuel flow, I likely have a week pump. It would also seem that with the fuel flowing constantly through the OCV, even at low pressures like 10 to 15 psi, I likely also have a bad OCV. Finally, when I shut the engine off, the fuel pressure spikes up to the highest value I see for about 3 to 4 seconds before it starts dropping. This is while running the delivery pump right out of a 5 gallon can and the return going back into the same 5 gallon can so none of the complications of the F350 system are in the equation. This seems odd!

[ISX]

I am totally getting it except for the part about the needle not bdancing; my needle always dances unless the valve is 100% shut and even then it moves ever so slightly;I thought I saw the one in your video do so as well; it is a matter of degree. If I just barely open the valve, let's say a 2 to 5 degree turn, the needle dances about 1 to 2 psi, but it still dances. Not trying to be difficult, just trying to get this right. In any case, if I go with that setting, I am getting 20psi with fuel pouring past the OFV. Even if I pinch off the return line so no fuel comes out, I only get about 25 PSI on that setting. That was why I was beginning to think I may have 2 problems.

1990 F350s have a dual tank system. There is a solenoid controlled valve operated by a switch on the dash that allows the driver to switch between tanks. When you switch tanks, the fuel pumps in the tanks are switched simultaneously. I am not intimately familiar with the details, but that is the general idea. This truck was set up with a manifold on the input part of the lift pump; both tanks supply lines and the return from the injection pump go into this manifold. In order to run return lines to the tanks, I would need to somehow mirror the supply set up. Honestly? It is a lousy system with a lot of over priced components; very convenient when it all works, but fraught with potential problems; at least several recalls on it.

I have no fuel heater.

I totally understand the logic thanks to all of your help; I certainly did not when i started. In any case, based on fuel flow, etc, I believe my filter is fine (just bought a new one but at $32 I may save it). It would seem that with not being able to get more than 25 to 30 psi no matter how I restrict fuel flow, I likely have a week pump. It would also seem that with the fuel flowing constantly through the OCV, even at low pressures like 10 to 15 psi, I likely also have a bad OCV.

Finally, when I shut the engine off, the fuel pressure spikes up to the highest value I see for about 3 to 4 seconds before it starts dropping. This is while running the delivery pump right out of a 5 gallon can and the return going back into the same 5 gallon can so none of the complications of the F350 system are in the equation. This seems odd!

Hmmm, you pose a good point. I used a crappy valve that isn't really even a needle valve. The lift pump pulsates pretty slowly at idle so I think some variation would be necessary, but up higher it should pulsate fast enough to keep the gauge from dancing. I am curious now, 12V guys never really put fuel pressure gauges on their trucks so I haven't seen hardly anything on what the gauge is supposed to do, it's a 24V thing but their pumps are electric so they pulsate fast the entire time. Let me get a real needle valve tomorrow and some better hose and see what happens. I know mine was around 35psi floored iirc.

We might just have to use some sort of baffle rather than a needle valve. I gotta look into it more, this is really interesting. I've never read about people saying anything about this issue and assumed mine was just the rigged up setup I used. We will get to the bottom of this tomorrow (hopefully, I only got a 3 hour window to buy the stuff and do it, but I think I can pull it off lol). If I can't get it tomorrow then Sunday I should be back and can do it.

Explain what goes on when you loosen the valve up and let it dance, does the pressure go way up when you clamp the line? When you turn the truck off the ppump isn't drawing fuel so the pressure can raise. What does the pressure do once the truck is off? Hold constant or bleed down?

If you look in my signature, you can see what my other truck is...I know what your talking about with the dual tank setup For the record, I would put the cummins in my dodge into that truck if it didn't seem like I would waste a dodge in doing so, so don't think that your conversion was a waste because I woulda done the same thing.

--- Update to the previous post...

Alright I dug and dug and found out a bunch on how to identify that pump. First off there is a black tag with white lettering on the back of the pump, riveted on. There is also one on the side of the pump that will look the same.

The numbers on the back of the pump will be something like RQV400...1150PA1172K

Which decodes to:

R = Governor

Q = Transverse spring

V = Variable speed governor

400 = Rated minimum speed (idling speed = 1/2 engine speed, engine idle 800RPM) ... = controlled range

1150 = Rated maximum speed (= 1/2 engine speed, engine max speed = 2300RPM)

P = P series pump designation

A = Modification letter

117 = Type code

2 = Suffix

K = Torque matching by characteristic.

[source]

On the side of the pump is a more meaningful tag.

Numbers will look like this:

PES6P110A120RS7213

0 402 736 906

96628 08721

The first one can be decoded like this:

PES6P -Denotes number of cylinders and Basic Pump Model

110 -Denotes Barrel & Plunger Size in MM

A120RS -Denotes Cam rotation direction (Cummins is Right)

7213 -Denotes Pump series (2000, 3000, 7000, etc)

[source]

The next line of numbers seem to be a cummins lookup thing, but this website has put together a list of them, among other things. http://www.chathamfuel.on.ca/generic.asp?pg=appl_59&ti=Applications%20-%20Cummins%205.9