110V Question

[AH64ID]

My wife has a Juicer that was sometimes take camping, it's has a simple low-off-high switch and a 850W motor, and runs fine off the Honda 2000 Generator and shore power. 

 

My mom has the same juicer and it wouldn't run on my dad's Honda 3000 or Honda 5500 generators so he installed a Xantrex 1500w inverter and it works flawlessly.

 

This week I tried running our juicer off of our inverter, same model Xantrex 1500w that my dad has. It only works on the outlet closest to the inline transfer relay/inverter. On any of the other 110V outlets it just buzzes when you turn the switch on (and there is no amp draw). If I hook up shore power the juicer works flawless off any of the 110V outlets, so I don't think I have a wiring issue. There are 2 15A circuits, it doesn't work on either.

 

The inverter hasn't gone to sleep mode with the low draw becuase the TV still has power.

 

Why would the inverter only be able to power the juicer on 1 outlet?

[Mopar1973Man]

Interesting. I really don't have a answer. Is your neutral and hot on the right sides of the outlet? (Shooting from the hip)

[thefox311]

Could be a possiblity of voltage drop on the outlets further away from the inverter.  But with 14 awg solid copper there shouldn't  be much drop.    NEC states on a 15 amp circuit load rating must not exceed 80% during normal run on start up most items that pull 12 amps will go a little over 15 then drop back down to 12 or so.

 

w=va (watts=volts*amps)  1500/120= 12.5 amps  so that inverter can only carry 12.5 amps peak load.  I would bet that your juicer runs real close to 12.5 amps on start up. Kinda hoky but put a 120 HVAC cap  in line with the juicer and i bet it would start up every time   

 

oh I scrolled back up and lets see 850 watts is running so that would be 7.5 amps when you have it on high.  10 micro farad cap would probably do it for ya. But from what it sounds like in your post it the current capacity differences between the inverter and the shore power.  its 15 amps on shore and 12.5 on inverter.  So i think that is what your problem is and too much draw to start it up the further you get from the power source.

 

Hope i didnt confuse you too bad i just go off on tangents. 

 

 

-Cameron

[thefox311]

Need to correct what i posted before, Did a little looking around at the user manual for this bugger and found that this unit is rated at 1000 watts continuous (w=va 1000/120=8.5 amps).  

 

http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Power-Inverters/Xantrex-Inverters-Hardwired/XPower%201500%20Inverter%20Owners%20Guide%20%28975-0558-01-01_Rev-B%29.pdf

 

something interesting that I found in there:

 

High Surge Loads

Some induction motors used in freez

ers, pumps, and other motor-operated

equipment require high surge currents to

start. The inverter may not be able

to start some of these motors even t

hough their rated current draw is within

the inverter’s limits. The inverter will normally start single-phase induction

motors rated at 1/2

horsepower or less

 

So you are running real close to design outputs of the inverter.  But it should be ok

 

Another tid bit of info too why it wouldnt run off the generator's was probably because the frequency was either too low or too high, or the voltage was too low and or high. You can check the frequency with a Fluke 177 DVOM or any DVOM that has a frequency option . It needs to be close to 60 hz as possible.  The reason it would run off the inverter is that it makes up for the frequency error/low voltage and cleans up the output of the 120 vac

 

My dad is a freak (course so am I since it's what I do for a living) when it comes to setting up his generator's for his rv. (That's what i get for having an electrical engineer for a dad) He adjusted his Under load and the best load to use while adjusting those parameter's is the AC Unit.  Anyway under load adjust the engine speed while checking the frequency to get it to as close to 60 hz as possible +/- .3 hz.  once you get it close check the voltage on one of the outlets and it will should be really close to 120 vac.    And under no load voltage will a little high as well as frequency.  But too high a voltage and or frequency will damage appliances. So find a happy medium and stick with that.

 

And i see in your original post that there is a transfer relay in line with the AC.  Which totally makes sense why it wouldn't run off generator and why it would run off the inverter. 

 

But anyways I hope I was able to help out your situation there!

 

PS i did check out your install on a previous post very nice! Wish i had one in my trailer, need to install a second battery in parrallel so I dont suck my batteries dry in 2 days.  Kids love to leave the lights and the pump on at night haha.

 

Hope this helps or at least you know what to look for now

Edited March 18, 2014 by Cameron Bailey

[AH64ID]

So I went out to the TT this morning to use the inverter to grind coffee (forgot to last night and it's LOUD). When I was done I plugged the Juicer into the same outlet (the one that buzzed yesterday) and it worked. I cycled the inverter and it worked.. WTF??

 

The only electrical difference is that I wasn't plugged into shore power as well, but the only thing that should effect is the ground and the juicer uses a 2 prong plug.. .and not to mention it worked on 1 of the outlets while on shore power (breakers for general circuits where off which puts the load on the inverter).

 

Now I am really confused.

 

Interesting. I really don't have a answer. Is your neutral and hot on the right sides of the outlet? (Shooting from the hip)

 

Yes, verified with a multimeter.

 

 

Need to correct what i posted before, Did a little looking around at the user manual for this bugger and found that this unit is rated at 1000 watts continuous (w=va 1000/120=8.5 amps).  

 

http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Power-Inverters/Xantrex-Inverters-Hardwired/XPower%201500%20Inverter%20Owners%20Guide%20%28975-0558-01-01_Rev-B%29.pdf

 

something interesting that I found in there:

 

High Surge Loads

Some induction motors used in freez

ers, pumps, and other motor-operated

equipment require high surge currents to

start. The inverter may not be able

to start some of these motors even t

hough their rated current draw is within

the inverter’s limits. The inverter will normally start single-phase induction

motors rated at 1/2

horsepower or less

 

So you are running real close to design outputs of the inverter.  But it should be ok

 

Another tid bit of info too why it wouldnt run off the generator's was probably because the frequency was either too low or too high, or the voltage was too low and or high. You can check the frequency with a Fluke 177 DVOM or any DVOM that has a frequency option . It needs to be close to 60 hz as possible.  The reason it would run off the inverter is that it makes up for the frequency error/low voltage and cleans up the output of the 120 vac

 

My dad is a freak (course so am I since it's what I do for a living) when it comes to setting up his generator's for his rv. (That's what i get for having an electrical engineer for a dad) He adjusted his Under load and the best load to use while adjusting those parameter's is the AC Unit.  Anyway under load adjust the engine speed while checking the frequency to get it to as close to 60 hz as possible +/- .3 hz.  once you get it close check the voltage on one of the outlets and it will should be really close to 120 vac.    And under no load voltage will a little high as well as frequency.  But too high a voltage and or frequency will damage appliances. So find a happy medium and stick with that.

 

And i see in your original post that there is a transfer relay in line with the AC.  Which totally makes sense why it wouldn't run off generator and why it would run off the inverter. 

 

But anyways I hope I was able to help out your situation there!

 

PS i did check out your install on a previous post very nice! Wish i had one in my trailer, need to install a second battery in parrallel so I dont suck my batteries dry in 2 days.  Kids love to leave the lights and the pump on at night haha.

 

Hope this helps or at least you know what to look for now

 

 

The motor is 850w peak, and the inverter is 1500w continuous and 3000w surge. I am no where near maxing it out, especially with the juicer on low even with start-up requirements (The 2000w peak generator, 1600w continuous, starts it without issue, and there is usually 600-1200w of demand already on it). On low the amp draw was ~4A DC, so about 45W of power to spin it. On high it was ~23A DC or 270w. That's no load, the 850w is a not to exceed amount not the constant draw. It would only come close to 850w while on high and juicing a very hard vegetable. I am going to guess, that like an a/c motor, those are the locked motor watts.

 

There is also no increase, not even 0.1, in DC amps when the motor is buzzing. To me that right there isn't a supply issue. If the inverter wasn't enough power it would go into over-current shutdown and the DC amps would go well above 150.

 

Voltage is 117-118 depending on load. I haven't checked phase yet, but nothing else complains (TV, chargers, 5.5hp peak vacuum).

 

I haven't ran it on the generator since the inverter was installed, but since it works on shore power and inverter power close to the inverter (and now at other plugs) I don't think the transfer relays are having issues.

[thefox311]

It's really hard to tell what the problem might be without being there in person.  So you are saying you are having no problems whatsoever on shore power on any of the outlets using the juicer? Maybe it's not the power at all and possibly the juicer itself? Shooting from the hip have you tried your parents juicer? To try and compare the two?

[AH64ID]

I am starting to lean towards it being the juicer (not broken just needing something different?), as on shore power there are 0 issues on the same outlets.

 

They live in Seattle so until we meet up for camping I won't have a 2nd one to compare with.

 

I tried again last night and all seems to be working, really bizarre.

[rancherman]

Is  the  juicer  'sticky'?      I had  a  blender  once that  had  a  tight  impeller..  probably from me  not  keeping it clean enough!

 

 

Speaking of   camping, generators....    I  went with dad  years ago,   and  we plugged in the ol 2 hole  toaster.    Popped in a couple slices  of bread,    popped  the  slide down  and  it  killed the  generator  dead in its tracks!

 

I thought it was hilarious,  a   sheetmetal  appliance,  no more than a couple pounds,    stopping  a   13hp   Briggs  cold!

Shoot,   we'd run   water well pumps  on that thing,   deep freezer,  refrigerator...  (not at once)

[AH64ID]

No it's not sticky, there is no amp increase so the motor isn't trying.

 

Must have been a bad, or BIG ARSE toaster!!