So I got my first fuel fill of the Alaska winter fuel blend last week and immediately the stalling when put in drive is back just like my thread of last spring on this problem. http://forum.mopar1973man.com/showthread.php/1584-Problems-Stalling-when-shifting-to-drive-and-hard-starting-when-hot.-Ideas?highlight= I got to thinking after I read JohnFak's thread on the same issue with his truck where new batteries fixed it. http://forum.mopar1973man.com/showthread.php/2401-New-One-truck-stalls-when-moving-into-gear?highlight= Entry #20 I checked my batteries and found they were 5 years old. Well, they are Costco's kirkland brand with a 100 month warranty. I looked at the chart of refund on the batteries and found I was at the 30% refund point. I pulled the batteries and took them to Costco and indeed, they did refund 30% of the purchase price after looking up my sales receipt in their computer (I had misplaced mine :-) ). Then I went and got 2 new batteries (again Kirkland with 100 mo warrenty), and installed and trickle charged them overnight. Didn't fix the stalling. When it was stalling last spring I had edge +80 injectors. I have since replaced them with RV275 injectors (new), so I'm sure that it isn't the injectors as the stalling happens with both sets of injectors. Last spring I found that adding injector cleaner ended the stalling until I added fuel once again. I've been getting my fuel at the Fred Meyers stores. I think I'm going to try another fuel source and see if that helps. I hate to use additives other than 2cycle oil. Any other Ideas? Jim

So what is it that the engine does when starting and going to D instantly that keeps it from screwing up. Does yours fix itself when the transmission warms up? Yes, when warm it don't stall unless it sits for more than 10-15 minutes, then stalls the first time into drive after that it's usually good.

Johns worked fine once the trans was up to temp, it still dropped and everything but wouldn't get to that stalling point.

Your does seem a little more responsive to the load. I don't know how the cam sensor is set up but if it is like I think it is and the engine has to move 2 revs for the cam magnet thing to move past the sensor once then I can see the cam sensor engines would be less responsive.

Do your EGT's shoot way up when your in D like Johns does? Yes, EGTs go up like John's when warm idling in drive I'll see 500-510F.

You can see that thing was up at 440F.

Just edited my previous post with some thoughts.

If we could just figure out how you are able to go into D while you start it without an issue, that might be the key to all this. I just don't know what happens when you start it. I suppose it is giving it more fuel to try and get it to 800RPM so if you stick it in D while it is doing that it keeps it from stalling, but I'm not sure. It looks like it is started and running at 800 for half a second before you are able to get it into D but it must still be in the starting "mode" or something. I just don't know what it is doing at that period of time. Obviously fixes the issue though.

ISX and John

Try to put your trucks in gear immediately after engine start from neutral to see if it keeps running after going into gear.

Also, try to put it into gear without holding the brake and see if that affects the stalling.

I just sent an email to MADs electronics who make the smarty to try to get their input. They have a lot of experience with the fueling maps.

Here is what I said:

"Gentlemen,

I and quite a number of 2nd generation 24 valve dodge diesel owners are experiencing a phenomenon of engine stalling when the outside temperature is below 50F. These trucks all seem to have several things in common, larger than stock injectors, and low stall multiple lockup disk torque converters.

A number of us have been discussing the issue on a dodge diesel forum.

Here is the URL to the discussion thread:

http://forum.mopar1973man.com/showthread.php/2827-OK-guys-my-engine-stalling-when-the-put-in-drive-is-back-with-the-winter-fuel-blend

.

There are even several videos of what is happening from the drivers view.

We are suspecting that at low temperatures, the sudden increase on engine loading from the low stall converter coupled, with the larger injectors puts the fueling requirements outside the range of the fueling map at 750 rpm.

I know you folks have a lot of experience in this area and would appreciate your thoughts or any suggestions you have that might help with the problem.

I and several of the others have the smarty S-03, I was wondering if there is a different program that might address the issue.

Is there any way with the S-03 we can change the idle rpm from 750 to 850 in the ECM.

If it is the fueling map causing it to stall, it would be nice to have a compensation section on the program for a low stall multi disk torque converter like you have for injectors and torque management.

Awaiting your response

If I get a response I will share the content.

There ya go

Everything I have been showing you is John's truck I have a 12V 5spd.. He used to live in Missouri also so we met up a few times.

ISX and John Try to put your trucks in gear immediately after engine start from neutral to see if it keeps running after going into gear. Also, try to put it into gear without holding the brake and see if that affects the stalling.

** I normally pull in an then 'R' out the next morning. I will start backing in so I can pull out in 'D' and let you know. I know I had issues in either 'R' or 'D'. Will post. ** Yeah I tried this before - made no diffference **. ** ISX ** - remember how my grid heaters connections - they were corroded - would that have disabled the grid heater from working ? Wondering if the TC puts a load on engine ........ but any second factor tips it over edge (grid heater, battery voltage, larger injectors, atf fluid too cold, air density etc etc) ..... thats why hard to isolate

** I normally pull in an then 'R' out the next morning. I will start backing in so I can pull out in 'D' and let you know. I know I had issues in either 'R' or 'D'. Will post. ** Yeah I tried this before - made no diffference **. ** ISX ** - remember how my grid heaters connections - they were corroded - would that have disabled the grid heater from working ? Wondering if the TC puts a load on engine ........ but any second factor tips it over edge (grid heater, battery voltage, larger injectors, atf fluid too cold, air density etc etc) ..... thats why hard to isolate

The grid wires weren't connected, they were corroded off, so no factor with them But it does seem every tedious. Like the new batteries fixed it since I think the alternator had to work harder and put a load on the engine with the old bad batteries, but then it got cold and the tranny fluid became the major factor.

Well I suggested to ISX while he was doing the work for John to put it in Neutral and let it idle for while and then drop it in gear. I guess he tried than and no luck... I was hoping that idling in Neutral would warm the fluid a bit and help in the stalling problem. I know some of the older trans had problem with drain back... Throwing all my ideas and thought on the table...

I was hoping that idling in Neutral would warm the fluid a bit and help in the stalling problem. I know some of the older trans had problem with drain back...

On that note - don't some of the the modified VB/shift kits have the ability to "pump in park". If ours don't ( i have a feeling mine doesn't) .... then I did wonder if the fluid itself could drain back like you said a create an issue. Originally I was wondering with the extra tranny cooler, which jim has also, but I know the LOAD on engine was dragging this down prior to that install. Jim - on yours you said it kills it much quicker ...... is it possible on yours the TC lockup solenoid activates momentarily and puts too much LOAD and kills instantly ? john

On that note - don't some of the the modified VB/shift kits have the ability to "pump in park". If ours don't ( i have a feeling mine doesn't) .... then I did wonder if the fluid itself could drain back like you said a create an issue. Originally I was wondering with the extra tranny cooler, which jim has also, but I know the LOAD on engine was dragging this down prior to that install. Jim - on yours you said it kills it much quicker ...... is it possible on yours the TC lockup solenoid activates momentarily and puts too much LOAD and kills instantly ? john

Don't think so, been down that road before. I have the TST co pilot hooked in the system to control the lockup. It has an indicator light that shows when it goes into lockup and it don't flash or anything. Now I do have a toggle switch setup to disengage the lockup, I will try with the switch set so lockup cannot possibly happen, and post the results. Before I had the copilot I had a lockup toggle switch and have accidentally killed the engine with it at idle. The engine stop is instantaneous, this isn't killing that quick.

I'll talking to CajFlynn on the phone about this and he suggest pulling the Trans Relay temporarily and see if it stall yet. He feels the TQ conv lockup is still occur some how and stalling it. He's running a triple disc TQ Conv and no problems...

I'll talking to CajFlynn on the phone about this and he suggest pulling the Trans Relay temporarily and see if it stall yet. He feels the TQ conv lockup is still occur some how and stalling it. He's running a triple disc TQ Conv and no problems...

I can try that today also. John, can you also try pulling the relay?

I can try that today also. John, can you also try pulling the relay?

Will do - is that the one in the stadard relay location - with horn etc on front box on drivers side fender. Cat may have a different VB and solenoids. BUt with jims co-pilot like he said controlling lockup I did disable cold start protection from edge. Either worse or same - almost stalled today - and probably 55 degrees. Wondering if worth removing the EDGE completely to take that out of the equation ?? But does it leave the fuel/mapping tables in the ECM ?

Will do - is that the one in the stadard relay location - with horn etc on front box on drivers side fender. Cat may have a different VB and solenoids. BUt with jims co-pilot like he said controlling lockup I did disable cold start protection from edge. Either worse or same - almost stalled today - and probably 55 degrees. Wondering if worth removing the EDGE completely to take that out of the equation ?? But does it leave the fuel/mapping tables in the ECM ?

I think the edge works like the TST PowerMax III. It don't have fuel mapping of its own that it puts in the ECM. like the smarty does, it just extends the duration of what the ECM calls for from the map.

OK, I pulled the transmission relay and guess what..... It still stalls just like before.

So that should eliminate the TC clutch going into lockup and stalling the engine at least on my truck.

I still have a sneaking suspicion that the injector pop pressure has something to do with the stalling.

I don't know if a higher pop pressure would help or a lower pop pressure would help.

To my way of thinking a higher pop pressure would atomize the fuel better but be perhaps a few nanoseconds slower to inject and ignite.

On the other hand a lower pop pressure would inject a few nanoseconds sooner and perhaps ignite soon enough to prevent the stall.

What do you guys think?

OK, I pulled the transmission relay and guess what..... It still stalls just like before.

So that should eliminate the TC clutch going into lockup and stalling the engine at least on my truck.

I still have a sneaking suspicion that the injector pop pressure has something to do with the stalling.

I don't know if a higher pop pressure would help or a lower pop pressure would help.

To my way of thinking a higher pop pressure would atomize the fuel better but be perhaps a few nanoseconds slower to inject and ignite.

On the other hand a lower pop pressure would inject a few nanoseconds sooner and perhaps ignite soon enough to prevent the stall.

What do you guys think?

I think your on the right train of thought. I don't think there is any "problem" with the truck. I think the TC is tight and the engine simply can't pick up the load quick enough. I know some trucks don't do it and I think it is because every truck is different and some trucks just line up all the stars that make it stall. Lower pop does sound like it would help it. If it were me, I would just stick one of those magnetic heaters on the tranny pan to get it hot. I would also just warm the truck up in neutral (to get the fluid moving in the tranny to help out a little) and then when you are ready to go, just turn it off and turn it on and put it in D real fast like you do to keep it from stalling.

Did you ever put the injector cleaner in it to see if it fixed it again?

I think your on the right train of thought. I don't think there is any "problem" with the truck. I think the TC is tight and the engine simply can't pick up the load quick enough. I know some trucks don't do it and I think it is because every truck is different and some trucks just line up all the stars that make it stall. Lower pop does sound like it would help it.

If it were me, I would just stick one of those magnetic heaters on the tranny pan to get it hot.

Yes, I tried that but the heater fell right off.:banghead: Seems that magnets don't work well on cast aluminum transmission pans. :lmao:

I would also just warm the truck up in neutral (to get the fluid moving in the tranny to help out a little) and then when you are ready to go, just turn it off and turn it on and put it in D real fast like you do to keep it from stalling.

Did you ever put the injector cleaner in it to see if it fixed it again?

Yes, I put in injector cleaner a couple of days ago. It didnt stall for about two days then started stalling again.

I have my +80 injectors that have about 20K miles on them. I'm thinking about having them pop tested to see where they are at. The truck also stalled with them when they were in the truck. I was just wondering whether a higher or lower pop would help.

Do you have any idea what the lowest usable pressure is? I know 310 bar is the high end.

Yes, I put in injector cleaner a couple of days ago. It didnt stall for about two days then started stalling again. I have my +80 injectors that have about 20K miles on them. I'm thinking about having them pop tested to see where they are at. The truck also stalled with them when they were in the truck. I was just wondering whether a higher or lower pop would help. Do you have any idea what the lowest usable pressure is? I know 310 bar is the high end.

You gotta use the aluminized magnet The injectors are basically identical to mine (12V) except the angle of spray (direct cone vs. the 12v angled cone) and mine are 260 bar. I am not sure what effect it would have if yours are supposed to be 310 and you used some 260's other than more advanced timing.

I talk to a gent in New Meadows that rebuild trans... I explain the problem to him and he's pointing the finger at the torque converter which has excessive drag or the lockup clutch is binding up and not releasing properly.

I talk to a gent in New Meadows that rebuild trans... I explain the problem to him and he's pointing the finger at the torque converter which has excessive drag or the lockup clutch is binding up and not releasing properly.

Don't get the lockup clutch only because 1) Wouldn't this kill the engine dead straight away - and jim and I both removed the transmission relay which I think would prevent lockup engaging - no diff 2) excessive drag - did he mention anyway to fix/overcome it ?? thx mike

Ok there are a lot of smart thinkers here and I belive you all are over thinking the problem. No disrespect intended. I have had this problem since the first time the weater turned cold after my sun Coast tranny was installed. It is a really tight tranny, Really tight!!! 1. the triple loc is 91% convertor, stock is 87% 2. Kevlar clutches with additional clutches in the clutch packs3 billet shafting I know this issue very well!! As temps Drop outside the parts internal to the tranny tend to expand. Due to the tight tolerance with this type of set up you loose clearances when parts expand. tighter tolerances means more friction to overcome. More friction overpowers the Idle hp of our trucks and thus it Stalls. Also SunCoast recomends using Dextron in their trannies versis AFT+4. ATF+4 has friction modifiers that let's things slip more where Dextron does not. Anybody have a clue what the hp rateing of our truck is at Idle???? I'm guessing about 60 - 80 hp. Not a lot there. at say 1300 - 1500 rmps you could have as much as 100 -150 hp plus the inertia to break the resistance. once the resistance is broke and the tranny fluid gets between the moving parts the tranny is fine. Yes the convertor is tight too, adding to the friction. your basically in a lockup condition on startup but you dont feel it because the input clutches of the tranny are slipping. when you put the truck in gear you feel the load and boom the engine stalls. So is it the convertor or is it in the tranny clutches? My bet it's the convertor. what would happen if you had a manual lock up switch that locked the convertor, as you slow down and the tranny downshifts and gets into 1st gear. at a complete stop the engine would stall out due to being locked up and not spinning just like a manual tranny unless you push the clutch in. the 47 RE tranny is supose to unlock the convertor in the shift from 2nd to 1st or when you let up on the go pedal thus free wheeling. On colder days the clearances in the convertor is actually in a lockup condition. No electronics will show you this becase it's a mechanical lock not electronic lock. It just the nature of the beast when you trade out stock with performance parts. Deal with it as you have by: knowing it's gonna happen and either start the truck earlier and let it warm up or brute force it by slamming it into gear with a little throttle. or choose to replace the convertor with a single disk and risk slipping it under load. JG