Fuel lubricity

[Vais01]

Still no matter what is lower in BTU content... Not by much but petroleum diesel is the top of the BTU list and petroluem gasoline is top of the gasoline BTU list.

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Excellent information thank you for that chart.

[dripley]

I noticed this in the wife's Dakota. Her mileage was down 5% to 10% with ethanol. But her little foot weighs about 1000#'s. I have not noticed any decrease in the 2500, some increase actually. I am not sure what the Comp is contributing. Installed that at the same time I started running the Bio. I am currently running it off due to clutch slippage. It still does boost fooling and lets the truck fuel pretty good past 20 psi of boost where before it would defuel once I hit 20 psi. I cant explain the mileage when I am usually running around 77 or 78 on most interstates with a 70 mph limit, slower on others. I just ran at 18.5 mpg from Chattanooga Tn to Hickory NC and back. 50% of that trip was thru the Smokies. Alot of hills to pull but a lot of coasting also.

[Vais01]

I have run some B-5 but mostly B-15 and 20 for the past 8k miles with no ill effects. Matter of fact some fuel economy increase. I did add an Edge comp about the same time so not sure what effect this has had on the mileage. I ran a tank of this while back and got one of the best tanks mileage wise ever. IMG_20150823_213344590_HDR1.jpg I still ran 16oz's of 2 stroke with the B5 and the B15. The B20 and this stuff run quieter than straight #2 and 2 stroke.I have only been running the bio this spring and summer, not sure about winter. So far no ill effects. I hope I am not screwing anything up because I am seeing more and more Bio almost everywhere i have been in the past 8 months. It is getting more prevalent.

I guess I should add this. Many years ago when ethanol was first being pushed I thought that anything to get us of the arab teat had to be good. Since it has become so prevalent and the true cost is apparent I am against it. Every time you go to the grocery store you pay for it. I think the negatives outway the positives. That being said, I hope this is not as true for the Bio diesel. I know some of it comes from waste products, soy beans and such. I am not sure how these items effect any thing else. I need to do some more research. I would hate to find out it is no different in those respects because I would have to rethink using. We might not have much choice seeing that is being sold in more and more places. Plus me and the truck like it so far.

Good info. I don't think biodiesel blends are remotely bad as long as your truck is in good shape.

I'm running an ounce per gallon of 2 stroke so far all my fuel stations are 2% or 5% biodiesel. 5% biodiesel being the most common. Only reason I'm asking about stronger blends is because I may have a potential job that will include alot of travel and some stations only have blends greater than 10%.

[Vais01]

I noticed this in the wife's Dakota. Her mileage was down 5% to 10% with ethanol. But her little foot weighs about 1000#'s. I have not noticed any decrease in the 2500, some increase actually. I am not sure what the Comp is contributing. Installed that at the same time I started running the Bio. I am currently running it off due to clutch slippage. It still does boost fooling and lets the truck fuel pretty good past 20 psi of boost where before it would defuel once I hit 20 psi. I cant explain the mileage when I am usually running around 77 or 78 on most interstates with a 70 mph limit, slower on others. I just ran at 18.5 mpg from Chattanooga Tn to Hickory NC and back. 50% of that trip was thru the Smokies. Alot of hills to pull but a lot of coasting also.

Driving habits and conditions have more to do with fuel economy than the fuel. Sounds like you made some great milage on a slipping clutch.

[diesel4life]

Oil dilution with fuel is caused by injectors not due to biodiesel. Fuel economy reduction is minor to none in some vehicles. Filter plugging is only an issue in winter not summer and also when filters can not be heated or ani-gel additives have not been added.

Now mishandling is from splash mixing which is a practice avoided now due to hazards. The additives and biodiesel are added and mixed in the piping and pumped into the truck.

After several PDF and procedural documents I have learned that there is just too much misinformation floating the net.

Biodiesel has a higher and narrower boiling range than regular diesel fuel, and does not evaporate from the crank case like #2 does. and because of its molecular structure it atomizes in Larger droplets coming out of the injector. This is particularly a problem in engines that use post injection cycles to burn the soot out of the DPF. Engine oil companies add specific antioxidants and additives to counter this.

Second, biodiesel that has been incorrectly mixed or stored (or stored too long) will plug filters regardless of the time of year, winter simply has a tendency to show b weaknesses quicker than #2.

Edited August 24, 2015 by JAG1

[Vais01]

You are the one spreading the misinformation here. Biodiesel has a higher and narrower boiling range than regular diesel fuel, and does not evaporate from the crank case like #2 does. and because of its molecular structure it atomizes in Larger droplets coming out of the injector. This is particularly a problem in engines that use post injection cycles to burn the soot out of the DPF. Engine oil companies add specific antioxidants and additives to counter this.

Second, biodiesel that has been incorrectly mixed or stored (or stored too long) will plug filters regardless of the time of year, winter simply has a tendency to show b weaknesses quicker than #2.

I am not spreading misinformation I am merely stating the facts. Now if you would like to continue trolling my post of fuel lubricity and stating biodiesel blends are bad due to what reasons you have justified to yourself, please continue and I will continue to ignore you. This thread was started to see what people are doing for fuel lubricity and what the Engine Manufacturers associations have done to help this long known issue. Please consider that we are talking about engines that have no DPF, SCR or EGR systems and our trucks do not have pre and post injection. Edited August 24, 2015 by Vais01

[diesel4life]

LOL, if you think bio is the end all cure to diesel fuel quality you are sorely mistaken. The ONLY reason we have bio fuels is due to government driven subsidies and mandates. It has absolutely nothing to do with it being a superior product to #2. If it was superior the EMA and ASTM would recommend and possibly demand its use, as it is they say you MAY use up to x amount BUT knowing the quality of the fuel is YOUR responsibility, and your warranty WILL be voided if/when you get a bad dose. The only saving grace for bio is its lubricating properties, aside from that #2 is superior in every way. Ever see a dmaaged fuel system from a bad batch of bio? It ain't pretty.Bio is much worse than ULSD in terms of water retention and solvency, even worse than gasoline and methanol.

[diesel4life]

Now we are editing my posts because I stated someone was mis stating facts??

Wow.

[dripley]

Driving habits and conditions have more to do with fuel economy than the fuel. Sounds like you made some great milage on a slipping clutch.

 

Just so you know the clutch is not slipping with the comp off. Just made 420 mile run with the the 5th wheel(15k) in 5th gear and it never slipped. No matter how hard i was on the throttle. I only put in 6th a few times on level ground and did not slip it at half throttle. However if I turn on level one and get on it empty it slips as soon as the turbo spools. 

[Vais01]

Just so you know the clutch is not slipping with the comp off. Just made 420 mile run with the the 5th wheel(15k) in 5th gear and it never slipped. No matter how hard i was on the throttle. I only put in 6th a few times on level ground and did not slip it at half throttle. However if I turn on level one and get on it empty it slips as soon as the turbo spools.

Well it is a great excuse to upgrade. I'm not 100% familiar with the Comp Box and how it fuels to say try this or that and see if it slips.

I'd still say it's upgrade time.

What kind of fuel economy out of that trip? Bio blend percentage?

Edited August 24, 2015 by Vais01

[CSM]

James, what information are you looking for?  

[dripley]

Well it is a great excuse to upgrade. I'm not 100% familiar with the Comp Box and how it fuels to say try this or that and see if it slips.

I'd still say it's upgrade time.

What kind of fuel economy out of that trip? Bio blend percentage?

 

On that trip with the 5th wheel, I stopped in Georgia and they sold straight #2. so the whole trip was on #2 and I got 10.1 mpg running 65 or a little under in 5th gear. The rv weighs 15k and is 12'-8" tall. Lots of drag.

[Vais01]

James, what information are you looking for?

Anything to do with fuel lubricity from biodiesel blends to additives used and the MPG associated.

[Vais01]

On that trip with the 5th wheel, I stopped in Georgia and they sold straight #2. so the whole trip was on #2 and I got 10.1 mpg running 65 or a little under in 5th gear. The rv weighs 15k and is 12'-8" tall. Lots of drag.

Oh yeah a whole lot of drag.

[diesel4life]

If your truly interested on the effects of biofuels and what OEMs have to say about them, here is a good read.

http://www.theenergycollective.com/jared-anderson/450416/fuel-stability-problems-challenge-fame-biodiesel

Here is what Cummins has to say, take note of the part where they talk about maintenance intervals when switching from #2 to B20:

"Due to the solvent nature of B20, and the potential for ‘cleaning’ of the vehicle fuel tank and lines, new fuel filters must be installed when switching to B20 on used engines. Fuel filters will need to be replaced at half the standard interval for the next two fuel filter changes. After this initial period, you may revert to the intervals specified in your O & M manual.

For EPA 2007 on-highway midrange engines only, oil sampling will be necessary for the first 6 months of operation with B20 to monitor fuel dilution of the lubricating oil."

http://cumminsengines.com/biodiesel-faq

More opinions from OEMs

http://www.eia.gov/conference/2014/pdf/presentations/woebkenberg.pdf

[Vais01]

If your truly interested on the effects of biofuels and what OEMs have to say about them, here is a good read.

http://www.theenergycollective.com/jared-anderson/450416/fuel-stability-problems-challenge-fame-biodiesel

Here is what Cummins has to say, take note of the part where they talk about maintenance intervals when switching from #2 to B20:

"Due to the solvent nature of B20, and the potential for ‘cleaning’ of the vehicle fuel tank and lines, new fuel filters must be installed when switching to B20 on used engines. Fuel filters will need to be replaced at half the standard interval for the next two fuel filter changes. After this initial period, you may revert to the intervals specified in your O & M manual.

For EPA 2007 on-highway midrange engines only, oil sampling will be necessary for the first 6 months of operation with B20 to monitor fuel dilution of the lubricating oil."

http://cumminsengines.com/biodiesel-faq

More opinions from OEMs

http://www.eia.gov/conference/2014/pdf/presentations/woebkenberg.pdf

I am very aware what Cummins says about the use of Biodiesel blended fuels and I am also very well versed in the steps to take when the use of biodiesel is to be used. As a matter of fact the key thing from holding me up from utilizing higher fuel blends other than B5 is I do not know if there is anything within the VP44 that can handle biodiesel blends.

Also food for thought go to a fuel station and if you do not see a posted tag on the pump stating the use of biodiesel blend it means that 5% or less is being used. The fuel companies do not have to post the percentage of biodiesel used if it is 5% o below.

Now that you mention this Cummins posting also says they still have no word on using 5% biodiesel blends on engines older than 2002 aka VP44, P7100, VE, CAV injection pumps and Stanadyne injection pumps.

[CSM]

Seen this?

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/98-5-02-powertrain/448005-vp44-biodiesel.html#/forumsite/20661/topics/448005

[dripley]

Ever since I ran the first tank thru back in Oklahoma, B5 as I recall in 09, I noticed my truck liked it. Idled quieter as I recall. never gave it much thought until about April of last year when I noticed the places I was stopping were all starting to sell blended diesel. The truck seemed to like it and the mileage showed it. Bear in mind I just installed an Edge comp and I am not sure what that has to do with it since I run in the off position but it does boost fooling which is helping my situation greatly. I have seen alot of what ya'll post for reference as well. There is too much info out there on both sides for me to make a decision based on what I see here and on the internet. Cummins says with my 02 motor I should be fine on a B-20 mix. My truck does like it and seems to run quieter with it with good mileage results and power also. 

 

For now I will take my uneducated self to running more of the bio and be the guinea pig. I got 10k coming up soon with the bio and will pull the filters and see what is in there. I have to say that my pressures are staying the same since starting with the blended fuel and no fluctuations have occurred as of yet. Both filters on the AD have over 10k on them now, probably nearer to 14k or 15k. I would think if the filters were catching a lot of crud I would see a drop of some sort.  

 

Just food for thought here. When I take my trips home I am usually running in the high 70's. That means I am turning around 2300 rpm. Could this make a difference in how the fuel is burnt/consumed by the motor? I know in past posts here that most seem to think that 2000 rpm is the sweet spot. Maybe 2300 is the sweet spot for bio? I don't know just saying.

[diesel4life]

Again referring to the Cummins page,

" What materials are incompatible with biodiesel?

Natural rubber, butyl rubber and some types of nitrile rubber (depending on chemical composition, construction and application) may be particularly susceptible to degradation. Also, copper, bronze, brass, tin, lead and zinc can cause deposit formations. The use of these materials and coatings must be avoided for fuel tanks and fuel lines. Fuel fittings and connectors are acceptable due to the small surface area in contact with the fuel.

Note: Contact your vehicle manufacturer to determine if any of the OEM supplied components are at risk with biodiesel in order to prevent engine or vehicle damage."

So the rubber fuel lines are the primary concern however the early VPs did have a brass bushing and brass is one of the compatibility issues. If your pump has been replaced in the last several years it shouldn't be an issue so long as you don't get a bad batch get by the filters.

The other reason not mentioned is filtration. The older trucks have poor filtration when it comes to bio, you need a good 2 stage filtration at a minimum and our trucks didn't come with them from the factory.

It all comes down to personal preference but I'm not sure why anybody would WANT to run higher doses of bio. Just changing your filters out an extra round will negate any minor advantage in price (along with the slight decrease in mileage).

I see the advantage in running B2 or even B5 for lubricity reasons. B2 offers nearly 2 and a half times better HFRR improvement over the 2 cycle mix that many like to use on this forum. Much beyond that and the potential problems that can arise pushes it past the point of diminishing returns for me. Part of the reason I posted the Cummins link was for their requirements on fuel standards and storage. It is nearly impossible for us to know where our fuel has come from, how its been handled and how long it's been stored. Another quote from Mercedes in the link I posted:

"The problems seem to be occurring in distribution and Mercedes reported that (in 2014) as much as 15% of retail biodiesel was out of spec.

There is little regulation or concern at this point as to what happens to the product once it leaves the terminal. Our infrastructure transports and stores bio much the same as it does regular #2 and that is where the problems arise. Until there are better laws and regulations put in place to transport, and store biodiesel the problems will continue.

[Vais01]

Seen this?

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/98-5-02-powertrain/448005-vp44-biodiesel.html#/forumsite/20661/topics/448005

Yes, CSM I have only after you posted it. I have seen similar things also but it seems things like this are a rarity.