OK guys, my engine stalling when the put in drive is back with the winter fuel blend.

[jgendr]

Ok there are a lot of smart thinkers here and I belive you all are over thinking the problem. No disrespect intended. I have had this problem since the first time the weater turned cold after my sun Coast tranny was installed. It is a really tight tranny, Really tight!!! 1. the triple loc is 91% convertor, stock is 87% 2. Kevlar clutches with additional clutches in the clutch packs3 billet shafting I know this issue very well!! As temps Drop outside the parts internal to the tranny tend to expand. Due to the tight tolerance with this type of set up you loose clearances when parts expand. tighter tolerances means more friction to overcome. More friction overpowers the Idle hp of our trucks and thus it Stalls. Also SunCoast recomends using Dextron in their trannies versis AFT+4. ATF+4 has friction modifiers that let's things slip more where Dextron does not. Anybody have a clue what the hp rateing of our truck is at Idle???? I'm guessing about 60 - 80 hp. Not a lot there. at say 1300 - 1500 rmps you could have as much as 100 -150 hp plus the inertia to break the resistance. once the resistance is broke and the tranny fluid gets between the moving parts the tranny is fine. Yes the convertor is tight too, adding to the friction. your basically in a lockup condition on startup but you dont feel it because the input clutches of the tranny are slipping. when you put the truck in gear you feel the load and boom the engine stalls. So is it the convertor or is it in the tranny clutches? My bet it's the convertor. what would happen if you had a manual lock up switch that locked the convertor, as you slow down and the tranny downshifts and gets into 1st gear. at a complete stop the engine would stall out due to being locked up and not spinning just like a manual tranny unless you push the clutch in. the 47 RE tranny is supose to unlock the convertor in the shift from 2nd to 1st or when you let up on the go pedal thus free wheeling. On colder days the clearances in the convertor is actually in a lockup condition. No electronics will show you this becase it's a mechanical lock not electronic lock. It just the nature of the beast when you trade out stock with performance parts. Deal with it as you have by: knowing it's gonna happen and either start the truck earlier and let it warm up or brute force it by slamming it into gear with a little throttle. or choose to replace the convertor with a single disk and risk slipping it under load. JG

[ISX]

Ok there are a lot of smart thinkers here and I belive you all are over thinking the problem. No disrespect intended. I have had this problem since the first time the weater turned cold after my sun Coast tranny was installed. It is a really tight tranny, Really tight!!! 1. the triple loc is 91% convertor, stock is 87% 2. Kevlar clutches with additional clutches in the clutch packs 3 billet shafting I know this issue very well!! As temps Drop outside the parts internal to the tranny tend to expand. Due to the tight tolerance with this type of set up you loose clearances when parts expand. tighter tolerances means more friction to overcome. More friction overpowers the Idle hp of our trucks and thus it Stalls. Also SunCoast recomends using Dextron in their trannies versis AFT+4. ATF+4 has friction modifiers that let's things slip more where Dextron does not. Anybody have a clue what the hp rateing of our truck is at Idle???? I'm guessing about 60 - 80 hp. Not a lot there. at say 1300 - 1500 rmps you could have as much as 100 -150 hp plus the inertia to break the resistance. once the resistance is broke and the tranny fluid gets between the moving parts the tranny is fine. Yes the convertor is tight too, adding to the friction. your basically in a lockup condition on startup but you dont feel it because the input clutches of the tranny are slipping. when you put the truck in gear you feel the load and boom the engine stalls. So is it the convertor or is it in the tranny clutches? My bet it's the convertor. what would happen if you had a manual lock up switch that locked the convertor, as you slow down and the tranny downshifts and gets into 1st gear. at a complete stop the engine would stall out due to being locked up and not spinning just like a manual tranny unless you push the clutch in. the 47 RE tranny is supose to unlock the convertor in the shift from 2nd to 1st or when you let up on the go pedal thus free wheeling. On colder days the clearances in the convertor is actually in a lockup condition. No electronics will show you this becase it's a mechanical lock not electronic lock. It just the nature of the beast when you trade out stock with performance parts. Deal with it as you have by: knowing it's gonna happen and either start the truck earlier and let it warm up or brute force it by slamming it into gear with a little throttle. or choose to replace the convertor with a single disk and risk slipping it under load. JG

Have you seen SASQCH's video where he starts it and instantly puts it into D and it doesn't do it? You are probably right on all this but the fact that he can do that is very interesting and makes me think there must be a way to fool something to make it work or something.

[jgendr]

Have you seen SASQCH's video where he starts it and instantly puts it into D and it doesn't do it? You are probably right on all this but the fact that he can do that is very interesting and makes me think there must be a way to fool something to make it work or something.

If the truck was already warmed up or previously started and broke free or the outside temps are above 60-65 you usually don't have the problem. it's on the initial start after the truck has sat in colder temps for like a few hours or overnight. After seeing the video that I didn't watch the first time around I got me to thinking, Yes mind seems to break free easier in R than it does in Drive. Usually I pull it in r first to break it free and then give it some fuel before droppin it in D. Unlike his Mine will stall in R or D depending on outside temp. the colder it is the longer it takes to stop the stalling, but with in 2 minutes of driving it's all fine once I get it moving and freed up.

[JOHNFAK]

Can you explain the "clearances" in the TC you mean. Isn't the TC in a fluid coupling prior to lockup ........ so I could see a colder/denser fluid adding 'drag' like mike mentioned with the TC finding harder to move the thicker fluid, but would assume if it was a true lockup like you say (mechanical or electronic) it would be an almost immediate death of the engine. I'm kinda with isx in that there must be a way to reduce the load or work around the issue ........ weather its adjusting the fuel mappings via a programmer, a heat source, IAT, a heater grid delete/change ........ increase idle RPM's when cold, something thanks for the feedback ...... its been an ongoing issue for jim (and now me) !! :P

[jgendr]

Can you explain the "clearances" in the TC you mean. Isn't the TC in a fluid coupling prior to lockup ........ so I could see a colder/denser fluid adding 'drag' like mike mentioned with the TC finding harder to move the thicker fluid, but would assume if it was a true lockup like you say (mechanical or electronic) it would be an almost immediate death of the engine.

In stock form our Tq Convertors have a single clutch disk that is electronically enegaged when lockup is called for. In the tripple loc Tq convertors there are 3 disks and steels between them being engaged the same way. The reason Dodge engineers build a single disk was to save money and give plenty of clearance for just this situation ( expansion / contraction due to temp changes) When the after market convertor makers figured that they can fit 3 disks in there ( trippleing the load capabilities ) the game was on!!! 3 disks in the space of 1 something has to be compromised. and that is space ( ie torerances ). As temp gets colder fluid get's more dense and steele expands and or contracts, even .001" - .003" makes a huge difference in side there. .005 by most respects is still considered a interferance fit unless high pressure oil fills the gap..

--- Update to the previous post...

I would almost bet money that those of us that are having this problem could benifit from trying a tranny product like this:

http://www.zmax.com/micro_lubricant/automotive/

I haven't tried it yet cause I never payed much mind to the problem. let me know if any of you try it and how it works??? I got to get my ECM/ VP issue ironed out first before I can try it. Just a thought!!!

[balsip]

I have read that there is a built in "droop" in the ECM software that is stronger in the auto than the manual ECM. Droop means that the actual RPM is lower than the setpoint RPM as load increases. You can read about droop in the VP44 Smart Controller in the download section that the Cummins ECM mimicks. The guys with a manual tranny know this because they can start off from a dead stop without applying any throttle. Dodge asked Cummins for this on purpose I believe in case the lock-up clutch stays engaged(stuck relay contacts), but they did not count on all the mods and extra drag that can happen. I also suspect the "sampling time" is in the order of 4X per second meaning each update to the VP44 is 0.25 seconds apart approximate. The software may also be written such that there is a maximum speed correction per 0.25 sec sample execution which explains why P to R to N to D avoids the stall. It gives more samples to get up to speed. Surging can result otherwise with such low sampling time. There is some speculation on my part in the above comments but I have read quite a bit on this governor and my former career was as a process control engineer using microprocessors. If you have a Timbo APPS I would wonder if the "idle position" signal is a problem since Timbo uses extra deadband to eliminate APPS calibration. The ECM treats the "off idle" control tuning differently than the "on idle" tuning. Perhaps it would be worth measuring the APPS voltage at idle and make sure it is within spec before doing anything? The other angle to consider is the return pressure regulator on the VP44. Most injection pumps are very sensitive to this pressure, especially the P pump where many owners stretched the spring a bit to increase pressure and avoid stalling at idle in cold weather start-ups. The VP44 is a little different in that the flow is so critical to lubrication that they have the spring+ball AND a drilled bypass hole. So you can test that backpressure theory by squeezing the short rubber splice section a bit with locking pliers but do not squeeze completely off (do not starve the lubrication aspect) and see if it changes things. One possible solution(last resort?) is to use the neutral/park start lockout switch on the tranny to engage a 2 second "time delay off" relay to add a bias voltage onto the APPS for two seconds. ie. A switched resistor connected to the 5 Volt reference supply could add 200 extra RPM to the ECM APPS signal input but this is last resort. I have used a 555 timer chip for this type function but Toff Delay relays are available with this built in. Just some thoughts to consider.

[SASQCH]

I have read that there is a built in "droop" in the ECM software that is stronger in the auto than the manual ECM. Droop means that the actual RPM is lower than the setpoint RPM as load increases. You can read about droop in the VP44 Smart Controller in the download section that the Cummins ECM mimicks. The guys with a manual tranny know this because they can start off from a dead stop without applying any throttle. Dodge asked Cummins for this on purpose I believe in case the lock-up clutch stays engaged(stuck relay), but they did not count on all the mods and extra drag that can happen. I also suspect the "sampling time" is in the order of 2X per second meaning each update to the VP44 is 0.5 second approximate. The software may also be written such that there is a maximum speed correction per 0.5 sec sample execution which explains why P to R to N to D avoids the stall. It gives more samples to get up to speed. Surging can result otherwise with such low sampling time. There is some speculation on my part in the above comments but I have read quite a bit on this governor and my former career was as a process control engineer using microprocessors.

One possible solution is to use the neutral/park start lockout switch on the tranny to engage a 2 second "time delay off" relay to add a bias voltage onto the APPS for two seconds. ie. A switched resistor to 5 Volts adds 200 extra RPM to the ECM APPS signal input but this is last resort. I used to use a 555 timer chip for this type function but Toff Delay relays are available with this built in.

If you have a Timbo APPS I would wonder if the "idle position" signal is a problem since Timbo uses extra deadband to eliminate APPS calibration. The ECM treats the "off idle" control tuning differently than the "on idle" tuning.

Just some thoughts.

My issue started when I had the OEM APPS. I put in the Timbo APPS and there was no differecce in the stalling problem.

I'm quite sure that there are several issues that contribute to the stalling, the primary one being a multi disk low stall converter. The secondary one is larger than stock injectors. The third is fuel with a lower volatility (winter fuel). I don't doubt that there may be multiple other lesser contributors as well. I still suspect that injector pop pressure may be one of the lesser contributing factors.

I sent an email off to MADS to see if they may have anything to contribute but they have been unresponsive so far. I was hoping they might be able to provide a new fuel mapping to help eliminate the issue. But, unfortunately they probably won't try anything unless it equates to large $$$.

Jim

[rburks]

My issue started when I had the OEM APPS. I put in the Timbo APPS and there was no differecce in the stalling problem. I'm quite sure that there are several issues that contribute to the stalling, the primary one being a multi disk low stall converter. The secondary one is larger than stock injectors. The third is fuel with a lower volatility (winter fuel). I don't doubt that there may be multiple other lesser contributors as well. I still suspect that injector pop pressure may be one of the lesser contributing factors. I sent an email off to MADS to see if they may have anything to contribute but they have been unresponsive so far. I was hoping they might be able to provide a new fuel mapping to help eliminate the issue. But, unfortunately they probably won't try anything unless it equates to large $$$. Jim

O.K. I had been struggling with this stalling issue..but.. about 2-months ago i thought i had fixed it buy replacing some ground connections and a TIMBP APPPS...Wrong....yestarday it done it again..thing is..it is random..and unlike SASQCH & JOHNFAK ..MINE does not seem to do it when it cold...only does it after its warmed up and has been ran a few miles...mine too will pull down rpms real low at times but does not stall but it almost does..:banghead: I am curious..has anyone had this issue that is running stock injectors and stock SO VP pump???

[SASQCH]

I have a stock SO VP pump with Bosch RV 275 injectors. Have you considered that your stalling problem could be a faulty IAT reporting false intake air temps?

Mike,

I still cannot update my sig. I get a "BB code font is not allowed." when I try to save the updated sig.

[Wild and Free]

I know this issue very well!! As temps Drop outside the parts internal to the tranny tend to expand. Due to the tight tolerance with this type of set up you loose clearances when parts expand. tighter tolerances means more friction to overcome. JG

I am not sure where you learned metallurgy or physics but you are totally backwards. The colder any metal gets it "Shrinks" The HOTTER it gets the more it EXPANDS.

[SASQCH]

In stock form our Tq Convertors have a single clutch disk that is electronically enegaged when lockup is called for. In the tripple loc Tq convertors there are 3 disks and steels between them being engaged the same way. The reason Dodge engineers build a single disk was to save money and give plenty of clearance for just this situation ( expansion / contraction due to temp changes) When the after market convertor makers figured that they can fit 3 disks in there ( trippleing the load capabilities ) the game was on!!! 3 disks in the space of 1 something has to be compromised. and that is space ( ie torerances ). As temp gets colder fluid get's more dense and steele expands and or contracts, even .001" - .003" makes a huge difference in side there. .005 by most respects is still considered a interferance fit unless high pressure oil fills the gap..

--- Update to the previous post...

I would almost bet money that those of us that are having this problem could benifit from trying a tranny product like this:

http://www.zmax.com/micro_lubricant/automotive/

I haven't tried it yet cause I never payed much mind to the problem. let me know if any of you try it and how it works??? I got to get my ECM/ VP issue ironed out first before I can try it. Just a thought!!!

Having a background as a tool and die maker and machinist, I've never considered .005 clearance being an interference fit. I've had to hold tolerances an order of magnitude closer (.0005) and that was only considered an interference fit under specific temperature differences in the individual moving parts.

But I agree that the multiple disks (being in an oil bath) cause drag on each other, and the higher the viscosity of the fluid the higher the drag.

There are converters out there now with five clutch disks. I wonder how much drag they cause.

You being in the southern states probably don't experience the effects of below freezing temps all that often but here in Alaska we do for about 7 months a year. That makes the stalling an issue I would like to resolve.

I went and looked at the additive site and was interested in reading all the claims of better mileage, more power, longer engine and transmission life, etc. etc. etc.

Then I read the msds sheet where it wasn't corrosive to GLASS.:banghead: How much of the transmission is glass.:lmao:The product from what I've read is refined mineral that their magic process has transformed into a different substance. I read marketing hype akin to magnets on the fuel line giving better mileage.

I just don't buy it, need to see independent laboratory testing results. But that's just my opinion.

Jim

[white01]

did/does the ats co-pilot you have work good?a little?

[SASQCH]

did/does the ats co-pilot you have work good?a little?

Yes, it works great. It doesn't control the transmission shift points as some people seem to think, it does control when the TC lockup happens and when the exhaust brake comes on. Great product.

--- Update to the previous post...

I am not sure where you learned metallurgy or physics but you are totally backwards. The colder any metal gets it "Shrinks"

The HOTTER it gets the more it EXPANDS.

This is true.

Whoa, wait a minute here folks. Remember different metals expand and contract at different rates. The transmission case is basically aluminum while the internals are steel and the bell housing is also aluminum. Also remember the expansion and contraction are a percentage of the dimension of the part. What I am getting at is an 18" aluminum case will expand or shrink a lot more than a 1/8" thick piece of steel will at the same temp rise or drop.

If the case contracts more than the internals there is less room inside for the parts that did not contract as much. So there could be a net affect that is different than you would think at first glance.

With that said, I'm not convinced that the expansion or contraction of the torque converter unit, which i believe is mostly steel, will have that much affect. I think the fluid viscosity between the lockup clutch plates and the converter having to push thicker fluid will have a greater effect than the expansion or contraction of the parts will have.

In my case with the stalling issue, when the engine is up to 190F and the TC fluid temp in the pan is 135F and the OAT is below 35F or so, and I shut the truck down for 15 min it will still stall several times when I start it back up.

The TC certainly hasn't cooled much in that period of time, the transmission oil hasn't cooled much, the trans case and bell housing hasn't cooled much, the engine is still quite warm, the IAT usually is about 120F because the intake manifold is absorbing heat from the engine. So basically most everything is at least as warm as an 80F day but the truck still stalls.

On a 60F day with the truck at 60F from sitting overnight it don't stall. So there has to be other factors contributing to the problem. Fuel I think is a contributing factor. Injector pop pressure????

Jim

[balsip]

I took a look in the FSM (manual) in the wiring section at the APPS. As you probably know the APPS supplies a voltage proportional to you right foot but it also supplies two digital TRUE/FALSE signal to the PCM labeled as follows: 1)ON IDLE 2)OFF IDLE. I would probe these two signals when at idle position to make sure ON IDLE is TRUE and OFF IDLE is FALSE since this affects the PCM software tuning for RPM speed control very strongly. You can back probe these at the PCM connection using aligator clips and a safety pin and of course a DVM. Just keep the two leads from shorting together. You should be able to do it with engine off but key in ON position(guessing). When "on idle" the software will try to hold a relatively strong closed loop control on RPM but once "OFF IDLE" it will let your brain and your foot be the "closed loop". Just the fact they used two digital signals to verify the same "idling" state tells you how important this state determination is. I would check that out.

[SASQCH]

On another site I came across an individual that is having a stalling problem the same as John and I have.The interesting thing is he states that when he makes his own biodiesel from used cooking oil, his problem goes away. When he puts in ulsd diesel the stalling returns.This kind of supports my position that it is in part fuel related.

[guesswho512]

were is the link SASQCH?

[JOHNFAK]

Only updates I have are is my temps have been as low as 40 and not yet stalling. She wants to - but hasn't quite yet.So the injectors appear to have a small % play in this also - at least for me - but obviously most of the LOAD is comming from something else/TC. One thing I have noticed - is on the cold/near stall days ................ I get a big puff of white smoke out the back - almost like she's dumping a large amount of fuel .............. I'm not sure if this is just normal for colder temps ............. but doesn't seem to happen when its a bit warmer. Not really anything else to add - will put my RV275's back in around a month ........ expect the stalling to be more frequent then.

[SASQCH]

were is the link SASQCH?

I went back to the cummins forum where I thought I saw the post, finally found it and I had misread it. He was talking about a hard starting issue not a stalling issue.:banghead: My Bad, that's what sometimes happens when you burn to much midnight oil reading posts. Jim

[JOHNFAK]

Hey man Not sure if you had any other deverlopments here. My stalling is back a bit more with the drop in temps - around 38--48 depending. I haev noticed something tho - if I do the following - it seems to stall more 1) Start truck and wait for engine warm light to go off 2) Let truck idle and warm up for good 5 mins 3) Move truck into gear and STALL Now doing this - appears to reduce the frequency of stall 1) Start truck and wait for engine warm light to go off 2) 2 quick taps of the throttle as soon as light goes off to release some white smoke 3) Engage gear ...... no stall No idea - just noticed based on driving habits Going to look at some other upgrades to truck for other reasons and see where I am with it after. Side note - do you run this ?? http://www.dieselautopower.com/product_p/35-fslash-40%20turbo%20budget.htm I think its pretty much a direct bolt it right - except hy35 has the VCLAMP - this is direct bolt in and couple extra bolts ?? You like ???

[SASQCH]

Hey man Not sure if you had any other deverlopments here. My stalling is back a bit more with the drop in temps - around 38--48 depending. I haev noticed something tho - if I do the following - it seems to stall more 1) Start truck and wait for engine warm light to go off 2) Let truck idle and warm up for good 5 mins 3) Move truck into gear and STALL Now doing this - appears to reduce the frequency of stall 1) Start truck and wait for engine warm light to go off 2) 2 quick taps of the throttle as soon as light goes off to release some white smoke 3) Engage gear ...... no stall No idea - just noticed based on driving habits Going to look at some other upgrades to truck for other reasons and see where I am with it after. Side note - do you run this ?? http://www.dieselautopower.com/product_p/35-fslash-40%20turbo%20budget.htm I think its pretty much a direct bolt it right - except hy35 has the VCLAMP - this is direct bolt in and couple extra bolts ?? You like ???

Nothing new on the stalling issue, just living with it for now. Havn't taken the +80 injectors into the diesel place here to test and set them to 310 bar, but will do it sometime soon. As for the turbo: I had a HX35/40 dodgezilla from Jacob on the truck. Put it on last May and made a run to Montana and back and it smoked a lot using a 14 cm2 exhaust housing on it, so I changed the housing to the original 12 cm2 from my HX35 and made another trip to Montana. by the time I got there the turbo would only give 20 psi or so and then it sounded like a 3lb coffee tin with a hand full of gravel being swirled around. I had my HX35 in a box in the bed so I put the HX35 back on with the 14cm2 housing and am back to being able to boost to 42 psi and keep the egts well in line again. (yes, I know to keep it under 35psi) Called Jacob and as per his instructions sent the 35/40 to the mfg. for examination. Just heard yesterday that one of the cir-clips on the bearings wasn't seated properly and was allowing the compressor wheel to contact the housing and oil to go into the exhaust ( thus the smoke). Supposedly they are fixing it and sending it back. Jacob didn't know if there would be a charge to me or not. I certainly hope they cover it as it was their screw-up not mine. I'm not sure that I will put it back on as I'm happy with the HX35 at this point after putting in the RV275 injectors. I haven't updated my sig here because for some reason the site won't let me do it. Some time back I contacted Mopar Man and he said to wait until the finished with some site upgrade or another. But as you can see I still can't change and save my sig. Jim