OK guys, my engine stalling when the put in drive is back with the winter fuel blend.

[pepsi71ocean]

In stock form our Tq Convertors have a single clutch disk that is electronically enegaged when lockup is called for. In the tripple loc Tq convertors there are 3 disks and steels between them being engaged the same way. The reason Dodge engineers build a single disk was to save money and give plenty of clearance for just this situation ( expansion / contraction due to temp changes) When the after market convertor makers figured that they can fit 3 disks in there ( trippleing the load capabilities ) the game was on!!! 3 disks in the space of 1 something has to be compromised. and that is space ( ie torerances ). As temp gets colder fluid get's more dense and steele expands and or contracts, even .001" - .003" makes a huge difference in side there. .005 by most respects is still considered a interferance fit unless high pressure oil fills the gap..

--- Update to the previous post...

I would almost bet money that those of us that are having this problem could benifit from trying a tranny product like this:

http://www.zmax.com/micro_lubricant/automotive/

I haven't tried it yet cause I never payed much mind to the problem. let me know if any of you try it and how it works??? I got to get my ECM/ VP issue ironed out first before I can try it. Just a thought!!!

Hate to bust your bubbles guys but i have the same issues, but my trans is completely stock and the weather was 65 out today.

Its so odd that it did this just the other day it started, i immediately sent Jim a Pm about it.

It sucks this is such a issue as im really starting to wonder if this is a electrical gremlin or if this is something else completely.

I have only had my new 60HP injectors in my truck for a month or so. then again i have a suto failing VP-44, that i leaking fuel out of the shaft seal and into the motor oil.

[JOHNFAK]

Did it stall before the new injectors ? Jim and mine both did after injectors From memory.... But funny thing is I put mine to stock again and no diff .... Weird .... Another funny thing is if I put it into gear immediately after starting .... No stall ..... Let it idle for a few mins in cold weather ... Stalls every time

[pepsi71ocean]

Did it stall before the new injectors ? Jim and mine both did after injectors From memory.... But funny thing is I put mine to stock again and no diff .... Weird .... Another funny thing is if I put it into gear immediately after starting .... No stall ..... Let it idle for a few mins in cold weather ... Stalls every time

it never did, and it started 3 days ago, the injectors have almost 3,000 miles on them, and im yanking them tomorrow to get pop and flow tested for S&G. This morning the truck stalled when i left work, i drove 3 miles to breakfast at ihop and shut the truck off. And guess what an hours later got in the truck she went into gear just fine. But i will say the rpm's dropped to about 500rpm before bouncing up to 625-650. I drove to the other diner and had a appetizer with my girl and then shut the truck off again, fired right up and was fine. It was 55 out this mornignt he truck did have thw WTS light on for about 10-15 seconds. My suspects are 1. VP-44 2. injectors 3. tranny. 4. the evil "electrical" gremlin. the only other thing i can think of is that dam VP-44, with pyrometers still running higher then they should im banking that might be part of the problem, but we shall see. The truck was fine last night when i left for work, but it was 65-68 out.

[2500ctd]

Did it stall before the new injectors ? Jim and mine both did after injectors From memory.... But funny thing is I put mine to stock again and no diff .... Weird .... Another funny thing is if I put it into gear immediately after starting .... No stall ..... Let it idle for a few mins in cold weather ... Stalls every time

Mine is exactly the same. It hasnt stalled since it has gotten warmer but it stumbles once put in gear. This was after the bigger injectors as well. Havent driven it in like 2 weeks however.

[pepsi71ocean]

got my injectors back and they all poped and flowed very closely, the shop said they haven't scene injectors so close, even closer then BOSCH specified.so its back to the drawing board.

[2500ctd]

got my injectors back and they all poped and flowed very closely, the shop said they haven't scene injectors so close, even closer then BOSCH specified. so its back to the drawing board.

Oh well, sux when something isnt broke. Means we gotta keep looking. Hmm I think we need a new drawing board. Was it mentioned if anyone has a new VP? Wonder if its a sign of one getting weak. Not so much as going bad, but just tired? Mine has around 190K on it. Bought the truck with 56K so unless it was replaced within that time More thinking: Read a current mag, Dieselpower IIRC, and they showed the guts of a VP. Question is guys with a scan gauge, can you see the timing? Does the VP advance timing once in gear? Maybe the timing piton in the vp is getting sticky or not able to compensate for the load in gear at first. Since it seems to mainly be an issue during first start up.

[pepsi71ocean]

did anyone try this here http://www.madselectronics.com/DownloadS03A.html it says " Smarty S-03. Ver. 1.22B Data 2.07A Same as version 1 but with the TSB for extreme cold climates and driveablity enhancements for winter fuel. ( For automatic trans. only )" Im wondering if this would change anything?

[SASQCH]

Well as the weather warmd here in Alaska my truck was getting worse and worse with the stalling when put in drive and then also in reverse. It was also getting harder and harder to start where it would spin sometines up to 10 seconds before firing off. I have an IAT fooler on the truck so I started playing with different IAT temp readings by adjusting the pot on the fooler to round 100 degrees when the actual IAT reading was over 140 because the truck was warm and had sat for 15 minutes. I found that it started much easier when the electronics thought the IAT reading was around 100 degrees. I still had winter blend fuel in the truck and the tanks were almost empty so I went and filled them with fresh summer blend fuel. I then hooked up the trailer with about 8K load in it and drove 50 miles and stayed with friends. The next morning the truck fired right up and no longer stalled when going into gear. It hasn't stalled since that was three days ago. This re afferms what I have experianced now for three springs. At least with my truck the winter/spring time stalling is caused by the fuel blend available here in Alaska. The problem may be exaserbated by the triple disk converter and larger injectors but the base cause is in the quality of fuel. I never had a stalling problem until the ULSD fuel was mandated. Jim

[pepsi71ocean]

my stalling issues still exist, the other day i pulled out of a job intview and threw it from N to 1 and the truck stuttered badly until i put it into drive.

[pepsi71ocean]

to bring a thread back from the dead.........

I recently swapped my worn out dead Vp-44 out for a new one from jacobb at DAp. this new Vp-44 sucks balls, completely.

The truck stalls EVERY time i go from neutral to drive, regardless of weather it is 20 F or 70 out.

The old shot vp-44, i have started it up and threw it into drive, even if it was 20F out. now over the weekend it was really cold, i think it only got to 40 at the height of the day, and the new Vp-44 it stalled.

I messed with it some more today and even holding the engine at 1,000 Rpm's it will still stall out when going into gear. BTW, having it that high allowed the truck to jump about 6 feet before stalling out.

i have noticed several anomalies that i have found elsewhere in this thread.

1. My voltage meter (on dash) also shows that the system is not charging when first started up, for up to 1 min.

2. the Idle speed is very low, a little below the 800 mark (2 lines below 1,000), or approx ~750.

3. When dropping it falls about 200 rpm, to 550 ish then dies.

4. old Vp-44 has failed timing pistol, so it was always in retard mode, pump would drop 200rpm but didn't have any issues, idle rpm was much higher about 850.

So i swapped Vp-44's again, and sure enough truck fired right up, and the engine was idling at 850, not 750 that the new VP-44 was idling at?????????? and even though its only 50F outside the truck dropped right into gear without issue.

This makes me wonder why the ECM was allowing the new Vp-44 to idle lower the the old one?

I noticed that Jim's Vp-44 in his video idles at the almost the exact same RPM as my new Vp-44 does. what is annoying as ____ is why is the ECM not raising the idle to the 850 it should be:shrug:.

I have to speak to bob wagner first, and then i'll take the truck to dodge and have them flash the 18-014-01 into the truck, that DTT says will fix the problem, problem is it was 70 F today and the truck still stalled regardless of what rpm the engine was at.

The only theory i have is that the old vp-44 had a completely lost its ability to advance timing, and was stuck in full retard mode, which is the only difference that i could think ofr, like Jim's problems, fully retard Vp-44 doesn't need good diesel to start up under load, unlike this new Vp-44.

--- Update to the previous post...

I should update, i swapped the new VP-44 into the truck again, and the issues returned, however i did as Jim did, and immediately threw the truck into gear, and sure enough the problem went away. I could then throw the truck in gear as much as i want, however if i went more then 2 mins after leaving it in neutral it would then stall out.

With this new found wisdom i drove the diesel to my g/f house (about 15 mins away), and with the truck warmed up (190), and the trans at about 140 the truck didn't have issues. We were at her house for 20 mins and the problem didn't arrise when we left, the truck was colder now at the bottom of the acceptable line.

We drove to lunch, and spent a little more then 2 hours there, and the truck once again didn't have any issues.

So, i called DAP when i got home, and we had a chat for about 30 mins today, and they are speaking to the pump builder about my theories.

Here is my theory in complete form.

1. When you first start the truck up it must be in some sort of closed loop, where the ECM and the Vp-44 call the shots, the VP-44 is on fully retard mode, allowing the truck to start up without issue, then as soon as the engine RPM is read and stabilized, the VP-44 will advance timing accordingly.

This is why if you put the truck into gear right away there is no issue. Because (DAP) agrees that its plausible that the VP-44 is retarded, giving the truck the full torque it can produce to overcome the load.

Now when discussing the idea of the TC causing the issue, i think that if the TC was the problem, then it would do it right away, as well as when you wait 30 seconds or so so it will do it. This means it cannot be a mechanical problem, because if it was then the truck would stall out at the same time.

Today it was much colder i think about 45-48 out. And the truck had no issues if i threw it right into gear upon starting it up this morning. Even after two hours of the truck sitting in a windy parking lot, it fired right up, and went into gear without arguing with me.

So now my theory is out, which can explain alot of the other things, such as fuel quality, lower cetane causes the fuel to burn quicker, which means if the pump is to advanced it will indeed stall out, rather then have the fuel injected when its needed at the very end of the cycle.(like the old VP-44 did).

Some other questions asked have to do with what controls idle RPM's, because when i swapped the old VP-44 back into the truck last night it idles at 850 again, but swapping the new VP-44 in the truck its back to that low 750rpm.

[JOHNFAK]

Some other questions asked have to do with what controls idle RPM's, because when i swapped the old VP-44 back into the truck last night it idles at 850 again, but swapping the new VP-44 in the truck its back to that low 750rpm.

I like the info. You understand this a lot more than me 2. Only thing is (at least for me) this didn't happen after I installed a new vp44. Same for Jim as far as I remember - could be wrong. Seemed to happen after the transmission work and the heavier TC (3x disk). Theres also a thread on CF started about same thing - involving Goerand tranny. So possibly we have similar but different issues ..... not sure but if I put mine straight in gear .... no issues The RPM thing is interesting Ill have to recheck mine at idle .. keep up the thoughts/info

[pepsi71ocean]

I like the info. You understand this a lot more than me 2. Only thing is (at least for me) this didn't happen after I installed a new vp44. Same for Jim as far as I remember - could be wrong. Seemed to happen after the transmission work and the heavier TC (3x disk). Theres also a thread on CF started about same thing - involving Goerand tranny. So possibly we have similar but different issues ..... not sure but if I put mine straight in gear .... no issues The RPM thing is interesting Ill have to recheck mine at idle .. keep up the thoughts/info

the reason i suspect that it is a timing issues is i have driven my 99 the last month i have over 700 miles on my trans with the worn VP-44, i have gotten it to start right up, and throw it into gear, idle it along and put it into gear without issue, with the old VP-44. However the old VP-44 didn't have any ability to advance the timing, so it was stuck in full retard mode. This is why i suspect is the difference. I also suspect that the VP-44 is alos retarded fully when starting to ensure that it starts up as fast as possiable, and once it starts and comes to a static idle it will then advance the timing for Emissions reasons. If this is true, then it can explain why you can throw it into gear when the truck is first starting up without issue, because its acting just like my worn VP-44, in full retard mode. This is another question i asked DAP to ask the pump builder, im interested to see if they know as much about the pumps as we would like to know, if the pump is indeed retard then it answers the question.

[SASQCH]

Hi guys,Just thought that I would add my two cents here. I moved from Anchorage AK to Roundup MT last May. We have had a really mild winter here and I haven't had any stalling problems to speak of this winter or spring. I'm not sure if it's the difference in fuel quality or what.The stalling problems I had started after the triple lock trans and larger injectors were installed. Don't think at this point that it is a VP44 issue, but I'm not ruling that out yet.I have an IAT fooler installed on a sw so I can use the IAT or a set resistance to tell the ECM what I want it to think the OAT is. When I forget to switch it back to the IAT normal setting before shutting down, and it is cold out It has a real tough time starting and running until it finally reads the real IAT sensor. Jim

[pepsi71ocean]

Hi guys, Just thought that I would add my two cents here. I moved from Anchorage AK to Roundup MT last May. We have had a really mild winter here and I haven't had any stalling problems to speak of this winter or spring. I'm not sure if it's the difference in fuel quality or what. The stalling problems I had started after the triple lock trans and larger injectors were installed. Don't think at this point that it is a VP44 issue, but I'm not ruling that out yet. I have an IAT fooler installed on a sw so I can use the IAT or a set resistance to tell the ECM what I want it to think the OAT is. When I forget to switch it back to the IAT normal setting before shutting down, and it is cold out It has a real tough time starting and running until it finally reads the real IAT sensor. Jim

Jim, Im not blaming a faulty VP-44, what im blaming is that the new VP-44's don't retard the timing enought to ovrcome the load placed on the engine. This is getting back to my core question of what the timing is when the engine is started right up, thus how to prevent the engine from stalling. The only difference i see is that the timing is different between the old VP-44(which had no timing at all), and the new VP-44 (which does). I also found out that my truck will stall after idling it, even when WARMED UP:banghead: I was idling away at the beach for 10 mins and put it into gear and she stalled right out, trans temp ~150, engine temp 190. SO started it right back up and it was fine again. OAT was about 47. Also, when i got home i pulled up to the garage and threw the truck into neutral, and noticed the headlights got super bright, then back to dim. so i grabbed the voltage meter and decided to do some probing. With headlights on, the truck in neutral, i noticed that going from N-R, the voltage went from 14.06-13.5, then back to 14.06. Going from R-N 14.06-14.8, back to 14.6 RPM 750-925 Going from N-D 14.06-12.9, back to 14.06 RPM 750-550 Going from D-N 14.06, 14.8 back to 14.06 RPM 750-950 IMO it almost seems that either the alternator falls on its face, or the PCM is not giving the order to continue charging to take the load off the engine? Im also wondering if the Voltage Regulator that DTT supplied that tapps off of the power supply line to the PCM could be effecting this, as almost every major trans builder has some kind of voltage regulator attached. I might attempt to raise the voltage on my voltage regulator to the transmission and see if that has any effect on the stalling issue. While speaking to my brother he seems to think that a larger alternator that is internally regulated (without the PCM) would also solve the problem??

[SASQCH]

Hmmmm, guess I'm playing catch-up here. You said "The only difference i see is that the timing is different between the old VP-44(which had no timing at all), and the new VP-44 (which does)." I was not aware of this. When did this electronics change take place?Have you considered that the voltage drop might be from a sudden load placed on the electrical system (electrical solenoid kicking on, faulty solenoid / wiring problem, or something) and the VR in the PCM is not responding fast enough to the load? Don't know how you could fix that if it's true. However, the voltage is not dropping below what your batteries can supply and that should be adequate for the electronics in the VP44. Just some thoughts.Jim

[pepsi71ocean]

Hmmmm, guess I'm playing catch-up here. You said "The only difference i see is that the timing is different between the old VP-44(which had no timing at all), and the new VP-44 (which does)." I was not aware of this. When did this electronics change take place? Have you considered that the voltage drop might be from a sudden load placed on the electrical system (electrical solenoid kicking on, faulty solenoid / wiring problem, or something) and the VR in the PCM is not responding fast enough to the load? Don't know how you could fix that if it's true. However, the voltage is not dropping below what your batteries can supply and that should be adequate for the electronics in the VP44. Just some thoughts. Jim

my old VP-44, the timing piston broke, so it was not advancing or retarding timing, it was more or less stuck in retard mode. Therefore it was injecting very late in the cycle, causing more torque. when swapping from this older VP-44, to a new one, the only difference is the timing. Which makes me think that the timing can make a difference. The electrical problem, is compunded by (i forgot to add), last night when leaving from the GF's house i threw it right into gear and the fuel pressure was about 5psi, i threw it into netural and the fuel psi rose to 15?? It almost seems as if there is some sort of static or interfearance, at the same time its weird that the voltage drops as well. This maks me think there is a connection between the voltage drop, and the abililty of the engine to hold its own, with the timing on hand. I find it funny that this all started after replacing that VP-44, nothing else was changed. Its so weird. It makes me wonder if there was a way to retard the timing on the VP-44 at idle, or just above idle to allow the engine to produce mountains of torque to prevent the engine from stalling out. This is also why i think that the VP-44 is fully retarded when the engine is first started up, for the first 10 seconds or so, to allow that the engine will start, and since it is fully retarded the engine will overcome the inital shock of the torque that ius put onto the engine VIA the transmisison.

[pepsi71ocean]

this problem is going south quick, the truck is now almost stalling when i threw it into gear, especially when warmed up sometimes.Once in gear its no problem, if i swap gears fast its not a problem.I went back to the drawling board, and notices my Alternator was charging, then stopped charging, and my voltage went from 12v-14v back and fourth.And on top of that the lift pump runs in the 50% duty cycle, sometimes Usually wen the truck goes into reverse, until you tap the gas pedal, or start moving the truck. Im thinking of adding our old battery charger and adding it to the system, and seeing if the problem goes away? Im thinking that if i throw it onto 50Amp it might keep the batteries level enough to see if the problem goes away.

[2500ctd]

With yuor symptoms it does seem electrical. Mine only really did it after bigger injectors. After the tranny I noticed a drop in rpm when putting it is gear after a cold start. Never thought much of it since it never stalled. This was like 4 yrs or so ago. The stalling only happen after the addition of bigger injectors. After a cold start the electrical system would be at a bigger load. Batteries drop (due to iod), grid heaters cycling. So after starting the alt is playing catchup. I wouldnt put a internally reg alt on. I perfer a remote voltage sensing system with the volt reg taking a volt reading from where everything gets its power. Granted the stock system doesnt do this. For an explanation: Remote volt sensing Couldnt Cummins give a little more insight on how the vp acts? We need an inside contact to put a stalling truck on a scanner and datalog the parameters during this event. Now my truck has been starting the OD lock unlock so I have been keeping the rpms above the problem area. Cant remember if it started along with the stalling. That would also reinforce a noise/interference/electrical issue. I wonder if when the truck is first started some inputs are ignored until a set amount of time after idle speed is reached. What about hotwiring the vp44 to run then trying to see if it stalls when put in gear. Hot wiring it would, I believe, bypass all the inputs from the truck. Maybe try this with and without a battery charger on it? random thought. On gas engines, increasing the timing will raise the rpm. Get a medium ground at the desired idle rpm. On the timing table below the target rpm, increase the timing. It helps the engine recover from loads put on the engine. The comptuer adding timing is quicker then the idle air valve having to move to increase air flow. I also play with megasquirt on gas engines.

[pepsi71ocean]

With yuor symptoms it does seem electrical. Mine only really did it after bigger injectors. After the tranny I noticed a drop in rpm when putting it is gear after a cold start. Never thought much of it since it never stalled. This was like 4 yrs or so ago. The stalling only happen after the addition of bigger injectors. After a cold start the electrical system would be at a bigger load. Batteries drop (due to iod), grid heaters cycling. So after starting the alt is playing catchup. I wouldnt put a internally reg alt on. I perfer a remote voltage sensing system with the volt reg taking a volt reading from where everything gets its power. Granted the stock system doesnt do this. For an explanation: Remote volt sensing Couldnt Cummins give a little more insight on how the vp acts? We need an inside contact to put a stalling truck on a scanner and datalog the parameters during this event. Now my truck has been starting the OD lock unlock so I have been keeping the rpms above the problem area. Cant remember if it started along with the stalling. That would also reinforce a noise/interference/electrical issue. I wonder if when the truck is first started some inputs are ignored until a set amount of time after idle speed is reached. What about hotwiring the vp44 to run then trying to see if it stalls when put in gear. Hot wiring it would, I believe, bypass all the inputs from the truck. Maybe try this with and without a battery charger on it? random thought. On gas engines, increasing the timing will raise the rpm. Get a medium ground at the desired idle rpm. On the timing table below the target rpm, increase the timing. It helps the engine recover from loads put on the engine. The comptuer adding timing is quicker then the idle air valve having to move to increase air flow. I also play with megasquirt on gas engines.

Im almost 100% convinced it is an electrical issue, but here is the thing. My old Vp-44 i swapped it back into the truck and the problem went away. My truck has larger injectors, the only difference is that my older pump couldn't change its timing because the timing piston was dead. So there in lies our answer to this whole mess. Its a timing issue, it makes me wonder if there is somethign the ECM does to change the timing, or the fuel quanity. But i should also note that mike and i don't agree on this. However mike and i agree on the fact that the PCM is acting funny, because the alternator fails to start charging untill the truck starts driving, however with the old pump in the truck the PCM would start charging almost immeaditly. I also started adjusting my voltage regulator, and noticed that if i adjusted the voltage to 5v (instead of the 4.6-4.7 that DTT suggest)m the truck doesn't drop as bad in load, and the alternator starts charging sooner, however the only problem is the truck starts in 2nd gear.

[pepsi71ocean]

An update..

After my last batch of fuel the stalling is very sporadic.

Apparently letting the truck get the alternator up to 14v before moving it into gear seems to prevent some stalling, while tapping the pedal seems to fix it completely before tossing it into gear.

If i let it idle away for more then 5 mins without putting it into gear she stalls every time, however like stated above tapping the throttle a bit will prevent this.

I still find it strange that the stalling occurs even when its 70F out. regardless of trans temp or engine coolant temp as well.

Im starting to suspect a VP-44 that might not be 10% there, like mike was thinking its possible that i have a VP-44 that has the wrong key way or could be loading up who knows.

I spoke to DTT today about that 1,000 mile trans fluid change, and that will be my task on Saturday, when speaking of the issue, they say that the TSB 18-14-01 fixes the issue at hand, but i have found that the dealership is being hard on me, refusing to work on the truck.:banghead:

all in all, im wondering what the root cause is underlying, i still think that it has to do with timing and fueling, but until i can get a dealer to look at the truck all bets it seems are off.

JOHNFAK: did you ever check your idle rpm's for me?