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SASQCH

OK guys, my engine stalling when the put in drive is back with the winter fuel blend.

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So I got my first fuel fill of the Alaska winter fuel blend last week and immediately the stalling when put in drive is back just like my thread of last spring on this problem. http://forum.mopar1973man.com/showthread.php/1584-Problems-Stalling-when-shifting-to-drive-and-hard-starting-when-hot.-Ideas?highlight= I got to thinking after I read JohnFak's thread on the same issue with his truck where new batteries fixed it. http://forum.mopar1973man.com/showthread.php/2401-New-One-truck-stalls-when-moving-into-gear?highlight= Entry #20 I checked my batteries and found they were 5 years old. Well, they are Costco's kirkland brand with a 100 month warranty. I looked at the chart of refund on the batteries and found I was at the 30% refund point. I pulled the batteries and took them to Costco and indeed, they did refund 30% of the purchase price after looking up my sales receipt in their computer (I had misplaced mine :-) ). Then I went and got 2 new batteries (again Kirkland with 100 mo warrenty), and installed and trickle charged them overnight. Didn't fix the stalling. When it was stalling last spring I had edge +80 injectors. I have since replaced them with RV275 injectors (new), so I'm sure that it isn't the injectors as the stalling happens with both sets of injectors. Last spring I found that adding injector cleaner ended the stalling until I added fuel once again. I've been getting my fuel at the Fred Meyers stores. I think I'm going to try another fuel source and see if that helps. I hate to use additives other than 2cycle oil. Any other Ideas? Jim

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Just a thought.......when was that last time you had a look at the water separating fuel filter on the FASS or drained any potential water out of it? Are you running an open draw straw or pulling fuel through the intank fuel sock?

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Just a thought.......when was that last time you had a look at the water separating fuel filter on the FASS or drained any potential water out of it? Are you running an open draw straw or pulling fuel through the intank fuel sock?

I check the water separator about once a month and have not found any water in it yet. Just changed the filter 6k miles ago. Don't have a drawstraw I'm using the factory pickup. Fuel pressure is 16.5 at idle and 15.5 to 16 running at 60 mph. Jim

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John's new batteries fixed it for him but once it got colder outside (under about 60F) it was back to doing it. He said the injectors made it do it once he put them in so we put the stock injectors back in and it hasn't done it since. I didn't know who actually had a lot of experience on this issue but I knew the blue chip guy must have more than most so I emailed him and this is what I got. The short answer is the cause is the bigger injectors. The long story is to explain how the VP44 works. The ECM controls idle speed, and when it sees lower than desired rpm it asks for a teaspoon, so to speak, of fuel to fix the problem, but now that you have bigger holes at the end of the pipe more fuel than asked for comes out without the VP44 knowing it and the idle increases too much, so the ECM tells to VP44 to kill the fueling to get it back to where it should be quickly. The result is the pump is doing all the right things, but the injectors are not putting in the correct amount of fuel to make the pump happy and therefore make the idle stay consistent. You are right that the viscosity of the ATFaffects this situation too. The only other thing that can aggravate this situation is if the injectors are not within 1% of putting out the same amount of fuel per delivery event.

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Hey manSorry to hear.Subscribing back to this one.Im not sure for me. The batteries DEFINATELY helped - no idea why though. However I don't think that was the cause. Even after ISX and I took the injectors out - it still drags down a lot - but hasn't yet stalled. But now in AZ coldest outside temps are 55. Need to be closer to 45 to know for sure.I am suspecting something with the 3x disk TC. Draws down on the engine more when fluid not warm. I think the bigger injectors to "aggrevate" the situation with more pop pressure :shrug: ...... I just think it was a tipping point for me......... pure speculation ............. but then you add your fuel deal into mix .......... maybe similar but seperate issues ?? Be interesting to see if your injector cleaner trick works again just as a 1 off - that would show it fixed it 2x.

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Hmmm.... If I had a set of stock injectors I would put them in to test that theory, but I don't. I have my RV275's in the truck and the larger +80's on the bench. I'm planning to get the +80's pop tested and set to 310 bar. I'm also going to ask if the shop can flow test the nozzles to see how close they are to each other.

I still think that the winter fuel blend has a lot to do with the stalling because last spring we were having quite warm days and the truck still was stalling until either I added injector cleaner or got summer blend fuel. On top of that the truck was garaged all winter and spring. Right now I have my horse trailer in one of the garage bays to rebuild the electric brakes.

On a side note with the truck parked out side, the high idle (not 3cyl) kicked in for the first time. I turned it on with the smarty last spring. The high idle coupled with the exhaust brake brought the truck up to operating temp real quick. :thumbup2:.

--- Update to the previous post...

Hey man

Sorry to hear.

Subscribing back to this one.

Im not sure for me. The batteries DEFINATELY helped - no idea why though. However I don't think that was the cause. Even after ISX and I took the injectors out - it still drags down a lot - but hasn't yet stalled. But now in AZ coldest outside temps are 55. Need to be closer to 45 to know for sure.

I am suspecting something with the 3x disk TC. Draws down on the engine more when fluid not warm. I think the bigger injectors to "aggrevate" the situation with more pop pressure :shrug: ...... I just think it was a tipping point for me.........

pure speculation ............. but then you add your fuel deal into mix .......... maybe similar but seperate issues ?? Be interesting to see if your injector cleaner trick works again just as a 1 off - that would show it fixed it 2x.

John, I suspect you are right about the 3X disk converter having more internal drag and aggravating the issue. I intend to add some inj cleaner to the fuel today to validate that it again temporally fixes the problem. The colder temps didn't seem to have an effect on the truck coming back through Canada from Montana (the truck was parked at night in temps as low as 22 degrees). It was only when I put in fuel here in Anchorage last week that the problem started, and the night time temps here were 10-20 degrees warmer than the Canadian temps were at night on the trip.

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Does yours drag down a lot like Johns? The injector cleaner and summer fuel doesn't stop it from dragging down but just keeps it from dragging down to the "stall point" right? I am just trying to understand how polar opposite chemicals can fix it, but in between it stalls. The way I am judging that is by cetane (injector cleaner is high, summer fuel is low, winter fuel would be in the middle) and also lubricity (injector cleaner is paint thinner so no lube, winter fuel is kinda paint thinner but still has some lube, then summer fuel has all the lube). I don't know what other variables there are. :ahhh:

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You got an accurate idea of what your RPM's go from when in 'P' to 'D'. I'm gonna go out and turn my edge to display RPM and see what it is from and too. Will post in a minute. Could be different issues (mine/yours) ?? Or maybe the 3x TC drops us both 80% of the way ........ then the exra 20% to push you over is fuel related for you ....... and injector related for me ??

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I went out and started the truck yesterday and the OAT was 38F. I'm sitting there for a minute waiting for the truck to warm up before putting it in gear and I stepped on the brake, I noticed the tach dip just a bit and recover (no difference in the sound of the truck). I got curious so I took my foot off the brake, no change in the tach. I stepped on it again and it dropped and recovered again. So I set the SGII to monitor rpm, and would see about 40 rpm drop and recovery every time i applied the brakes. So just out of curiosity I set the SGII to also monitor LOD . In park at idle the LOD was 18 when I put on the brakes the LOD jumped to 20-21 and then dropped back to 18. I pulled it into drive and the truck died like the key was shut off (when it dies that's how it always happens - bang and it dies) started it and it died three more times before it went into drive and kept running. When it does go in and keep running when the truck is cold it's like it shuts off for a split second but gets fuel and recovers just before it stops turning over, just like when it is first started with the starter. When in drive with my foot on the brake the SGII reports a LOD of 48 with the trans and engine cold.Anyway, I went out to do my thing in town. After the engine was at operating temp and the trans fluid reading 135F, I noted that the SGII LOD readings had changed to 10 at idle in neutral or park and to 36-38 in drive stopped (foot on the brake).My initial deduction from this is that when the brake is applied the brake lights coming on cause a temporary electrical serge to light them (anything electrical coming on requires more energy at start up than when running) putting a temporary increased load on the alternator causing the SGII to register the LOD increase and rpm drop before the ECM and IP electronics can respond with a tad more fuel.Also when the trans fluid is cold it is more viscous and therefore has more drag on the oil bath (wet) TC lockup clutches and the low stall vanes in the fluid coupling. I suspect that this drag, like the brake light coming on is enough to overcome the idling engine (748 RPM) before the ECM and IP electronics can respond with more fuel.When the truck engine and transmission is up to operating temperature it generally only stalls after it has been sitting for 15 minutes or more cooling off. I know the initial thought is it's the IAT. well I also use the SGII to monitor the IAT and after sitting for 10-15 minutes warm the IAT usually reads higher than 120 when I start the truck and after running a few minutes it drops to between 90 and 108 wit the OAT around 38F. Makes me think it's not IAT related.My thoughts are that when the injector cleaner or summer fuel is used it is more volatile to the point that the truck don't stall (or recovers more quickly) when cold. I also suspect that ISX is correct in that the larger injectors aggravate the condition.

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Does the summer fuel/injector cleaner solve it even when the trans/engine is under 40F?

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Does the summer fuel/injector cleaner solve it even when the trans/engine is under 40F?

I just put in a bottle of STP injector cleaner yesterday (one of my stops in town) so I'll know more tonight. When I had the problem last spring, yes, it solved the problem even when cold, the rpms dropped a bunch but it recovered before it stalled.

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would see about 40 rpm drop and recovery every time i applied the brakes.

I went out and tranny fluid was 71 (warm due to OAT of 80). My RPM's started at 800 and dropped to 640 moving into 'R' (mine happens in 'R' or 'D'). So thats a 160 rpm drop warm OAT. Will get some cold figures soon.

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The main issue is just that the trans is that tight. The 3x disc will handle a ton of power so I doubt it is going to be too easy on the truck when in D. I watched John's truck idle at 280F EGT (maybe lower) but just putting it in D would drive it to about 430F. That is one hell of a load and I think it is just because the trans is that tight. I think the injector cleaner/summer fuel must have a more potent injection somehow so it gives it a bigger kick than the regular winter fuel :shrug: The weird thing is that the RPM will always be the same once in D/R. The idle was dead on at 750 and in D/R it was dead on at 800 and once it got over the stalling hiccup and stayed running for a second, it would be right back at 800. It's like it just can't compensate as fast as the trans loads it.John initially fixed his truck by changing the batteries, which were making his truck crank slowly. If the batteries are bad then the alternator has to work harder, dragging the engine down slightly. That and the trans is what I believe to kill John's truck when it was 70+F outside. He changed the batteries and now the alternator wasn't dragging it down so the engine didn't have to battle as big a load.

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The main issue is just that the trans is that tight. The 3x disc will handle a ton of power so I doubt it is going to be too easy on the truck when in D. I watched John's truck idle at 280F EGT (maybe lower) but just putting it in D would drive it to about 430F. That is one hell of a load and I think it is just because the trans is that tight. I think the injector cleaner/summer fuel must have a more potent injection somehow so it gives it a bigger kick than the regular winter fuel :shrug:

The weird thing is that the RPM will always be the same once in D/R. The idle was dead on at 750 and in D/R it was dead on at 800 and once it got over the stalling hiccup and stayed running for a second, it would be right back at 800. It's like it just can't compensate as fast as the trans loads it.

John initially fixed his truck by changing the batteries, which were making his truck crank slowly. If the batteries are bad then the alternator has to work harder, dragging the engine down slightly. That and the trans is what I believe to kill John's truck when it was 70+F outside. He changed the batteries and now the alternator wasn't dragging it down so the engine didn't have to battle as big a load.

I think that is exactly right. My truck idles at 748 - 750 whether it is in drive or neutral/park. Although, I have also seen it idle around 800 in neutral a couple of times, when the engine is warm and the OAT is above 70F.

--- Update to the previous post...

OK, Just got back from a run to SAMs club and the auto parts store for a few things.

With the diesel injector cleaner in a full tank of winter diesel, the stalling issue is not there anymore.

So that again points to the winter blend of fuel being the straw that broke the camel's back with the stalling issue.

On my next tank of fuel I'm going to put in a dose of Power Service with the ctane along with the 2cycle oil and see what happens.

On the statistics side:

The OAT today was 32F,

When the truck was started the rpms were 748 and the lod was 12.

Then high idle kicked in and the rpm rose to 1222 and the LOD went to 0 then started fluxuating between 0 - 5.

Then I turned on the PacBrake to facilitate warm up and the rps dropped to 1150, the LOD went to 38, and the EGTs rose to 760.

When the IAT reached 83 the high idle kicked off. Idle went to 748, LOD to 30, and EGT to 540.

I then shut off the PacBrake and the LOD went to 12 and the EGT to 340.

It's interesting that the LOD diminished when the high idle kicked in. What is the ECM doing to diminish the LOD? Is it while in high idle, not allowing the alternator to produce a charge for the batteries to replace the starting energy used. I can't think of anything else off hand that it could do to reduce LOD.

:shrug:

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Thought I would figure it out by now, but, what is LOD? Thinking amp gauge now, not sure.

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Thought I would figure it out by now, but, what is LOD? Thinking amp gauge now, not sure.

according to the SGII manual the definition is "engine loading" "depending on the vehicle it's either the % of power available (I think this means capability of the engine), or the % of power available at the present RPM (I think this roughly equates to throttle setting maintaining the present RPM where closed throttle is 0 and WOT is 99) ." I don't know which category the dodge Cummins 24 valve falls into. I suppose I could figure it out by varying the engine rpm and seeing what the LOD does. I would think that if it's a % of power at a given rpm then LOD should diminish as RPM rises in park. If it's a % of the power available it should stay nearly the same regardless of throttle opening. Right now that's the only definition I have. Jim

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i believe load % is usually determined by injector duty.

So how does that work? What determines the Maximum and Minimum?

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100% load would be as much fuel as the injector can spray. you have to remember that load % is a obd2 pid designed for gassers. even at idle gassers will report 20-30% load because they have to match air to fuel ratios. diesel are not as strict and can run really lean. hence the really low %s. i typically only see 1%-2% load at idle unless the grid heaters are kicking on

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100% load would be as much fuel as the injector can spray. you have to remember that load % is a obd2 pid designed for gassers. even at idle gassers will report 20-30% load because they have to match air to fuel ratios. diesel are not as strict and can run really lean. hence the really low %s. i typically only see 1%-2% load at idle unless the grid heaters are kicking on

Ok I understand what you are saying. The wife and I went out to dinner tonight. When we got back home while letting the EGTs drop below 360, I looked at the LOD reading on the SGII which was at 12. With the truck in park I started advancing the throttle, when the rpm increased the LOD reading decreased. At 1850 rpm the LOD registered 0. this indicates to me that LOD on the 2nd gen 5.9 24 valve Cummins is the percentage of Engine Load relative to the possible amount of throttle (injector spray capacity) remaining to maintain the present rpm under an increasing engine load. So at 748 rpm and 12% LOD I had 88% more power that could be applied for work at that RPM. The difference between the LOD we see in our trucks is I am turning an automatic transmission and you are turning a five speed manual. You see much less drag at idle than I do with the low stall triple disk converter. Make sense to you ? Jim Jim

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i agree with you about the torque converter creating more of a load than my stick. when i first started playing obd2 everyone told me "that diesels don't report load% correctly". i don't know how true that is, but their arguments were about air/fuel ratios and how long the injector stays open(duty cycle). also on my cars(manual trans) at idle, load % sits at 20-30%. the same with my wifes auto. i my ram, i can actually get 0%(you and i know those injectors are opening) and even numbers like 3.13%. live data here at idle on my cars, not moving just giving gas, i can get load in to the high 90%, but with the ram i might get 5%(and thats a BIG might)

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I still say its going to be a trans thing plus your idle RPM's. Like my truck with a manual shows 0 LOD all the time in neutral the only time I see it rise is with a exhaust and/or high idle. But my normal idle is much higher they you SASQCH... My normal idle is 840-860 RPM's. So my thought is the TQ Conv is drawing down that 100 RPM creating the LOD change...

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I still say its going to be a trans thing plus your idle RPM's.

Like my truck with a manual shows 0 LOD all the time in neutral the only time I see it rise is with a exhaust and/or high idle. But my normal idle is much higher they you SASQCH... My normal idle is 840-860 RPM's.

So my thought is the TQ Conv is drawing down that 100 RPM creating the LOD change...

Hmm.. If that were the case why does the rpm stabilize at 748 whether the truck is in park/neutral or on drive?

In park or neutral, there should not be a lot of internal drag in the TC because the transmission clutches and bands are released.

It should be nearly as free turning as a standard trans out of gear with the clutch let out I would think. However when the trans is pulled into drive there is a much greater demand for power to overcome the internal converter drag.

When the truck is in drive (and didn't stall) while holding the brake, I hear the engine make more noise from working the torque converter fluid.

That's an audible indicator of the increased engine load (LOD).

I suspect the RPM is exactly where the ECM is programmed for it to be.

When the truck is put in drive the ECM asks for more fuel to compensate for the increased LOD.

I think it just isn't responding quick enough or with not enough fuel to keep it from stalling.

I think it's programming fuel map is calculated for a stock converter and stock injectors.

When a stronger converter and larger injectors are put in, then throw in winter grade fuel (and it being ULSD at that) it puts the required amount of fuel needed outside the programmed fueling map.

This is just my deduction of the factors that seem to be contributing to the problem.

We have to understand the problem thoroughly before we can solve it.

Another thought just crossed my mind, there is a setting on my smarty to compensate for larger injectors. I tried it once, but never when I was having stalling issues. I think I'll play with that and/or call MADS to discuss it. If I call them I will bring up the stalling issue and what I think the contributing factors are and see if they think they can create a map variation for a low stall converter.

Jim

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