Synthetic 2 cycle oil usage.

[Mopar1973Man]

We need to post up the MSDS for AMSOIL 2 stroke Interceptor oil. That's what I use. https://www.amsoil.com/msds/ait.pdf -Chuck

Well Chuck... How is the AMSOil Synthetics working for you? I've got lots of people asking about using synthetic 2 cycle oil in the fuels but I was uncertain of the results you've gotten so far. So I'll let you continue this thread for the others... But I'm curious myself of the results you got so far! 8-)

[flagmanruss]

I am interested in the concept of using synthetic 2 cycle oils... and the possibility that we could use less of it. My reasoning: I used to run many 2 cycle farm & garden tools (chain saws, brush cutters, weed wackers) each with their own mix ratio. I was going nuts until I went to a single can and mixed it 100: 1 with an Amsoil Product. The engines all ran for years on that mix.Now the question remains... if we are running the 2 cycle oil for friction reduction in the VP44 then this might work as well or better. On the other hand, I'm getting increased mpg with the dino 2 stroke. Would the synthetic 2 stroke offer the same benifits? I don't think we know since we really don't know why some of us get the increased mpg at all.Just my thoughts.Russ

[Mopar1973Man]

I am interested in the concept of using synthetic 2 cycle oils... and the possibility that we could use less of it. My reasoning: I used to run many 2 cycle farm & garden tools (chain saws, brush cutters, weed wackers) each with their own mix ratio. I was going nuts until I went to a single can and mixed it 100: 1 with an Amsoil Product. The engines all ran for years on that mix. Now the question remains... if we are running the 2 cycle oil for friction reduction in the VP44 then this might work as well or better. On the other hand, I'm getting increased mpg with the dino 2 stroke. Would the synthetic 2 stroke offer the same benifits? I don't think we know since we really don't know why some of us get the increased mpg at all. Just my thoughts. Russ

Actually... that why the ratio of 128:1 was delvoped. It was to increase the lubricity of the fuel thats all but the increased MPG was a bonus. But the reason behind the MPG is the fact that the 2 cycle oil has more BTU's over any other product on the market (excluding #2 diesel). It would a good idea to talk to Duluth Diesel about the AMSOil Synthetic line for 2 cycle oil. He the fore runner for testing the AMSOil line... :D

[keydl]

This is straight guesswork but the people that want to run syn 2 cycle will probably find that the same differential applies when mixed with diesel.Old 2 cycle and cheap 2 cycle use a dino mix of 32,35,40:1 and some of the syn 2 cycle advocates mixing at 100:1 which indicates that the syn stuff is more resistant to burning but still supplies the required lubrication. I think a good part of the increase in fuel mileage is due to upper ring lubrication from the unburned 2 cycle oil - exactly the same way that the 2 cycle gas engine is lubed to prevent scoring the cylinder wall.If that is the way that the extra mileage is produced then mixing syn 2 cycle at 1/3 or 1/4 will give the same results. Using a product with very near the same BTU per pound is a direct substitute - same BTU in more work out. The windage on the injector pump would not account for that much difference but lowering the windage in the engine would. The difference in design of the compression ring would also account for the difference in results on different engines. Timing would explain the difference in sound - injecting early with paint thinner would go off before TDC for a sharp sound followed by the main fuel burn at a lower pitch.Moly rings break in quick and run a long time if not abused, crome rings take a lot longer and run about the same life but stand abuse, cast iron rings break in real quick and wear out sooner. When cast rings were the only rings upper cylinder lube was sold everywhere and ring jobs kept the shop busy.So for every one with an interest there is a base to work on with the work on dino 2 cycle that morpar1973man has done, works for him and I think that he saved the injection pumps on both of my pickups by providing the information on 2 cycle.Can syn 2 cycle do a better job? Very possibly. But you need to collect all of the fuel tickets and remember to carry the oil. All brands are not universally availaible. I would think that starting low and slow would give the most reliable numbers. Syn 2 cycle will run a chain saw that says to mix 16:1 - that is roughly 1/6 the amount of oil. Does anyone holding a 1000 miles of fuel tickets want to stick a toe in for 1 oz per 6 gallons? and collect another 1 to 10K worth of tickets with the odometer reading on them? I think that 1 oz per 4 or 5 gallons would get the same result but the measuring becomes more precise. One of the ways is dilution to make the measuring easier.I've got a friend running 400:1 in a Detroit and so far the wallet meter is saying that the 2 cycle is worth the trouble of hunting it with a tractor, when he goes into the shop they tell him that his turbo is full of oil (I hope so) and he needs a set of injectors, but the boost is nailed at 29 and the computer on the dash is saying that the truck is up .4 MPG from the same route last year. The dash is showing 6.6 for 79,800. Wish mine did ton mile like that.keydl

[Mopar1973Man]

This is to show the cost per mile difference of DINO 2 CYCLE OIL.

Now if we look at averages (red line). My high point before 2 cycle oil was 18 cents but after is about 15 cents. So now subtract 18 cents - 15 cents = 3 cents. I started at 85K and current is 105K so 105K miles - 85K miles = 20K miles. Now 20K x 3 cents = $600 dollar savings... Not bad for running 128:1 ratio of DINO 2 CYCLE OIL...

Now lets see the SYNTHETIC OIL do it... :thumbsup

[flagmanruss]

Hi Again,I think keydl has an interesting point, is exploring why the 2 stroke tends to improve the mpg for most of us... Hypothesizing that the added oil is staying on the cyclinder walls to reduce the ring wear & improve sealing... just as it does in a 2 stroke gas engine... If the synthetic can do the same job with less oil, the question then is how much is enough and how much will it cost? If this is the case, it's just gotta extend the ring life... motor life... further. Owners care about this... oil companies & government agencies don't. Since the benifits extend to other makes & models, not just the 2 gen CTD, then this hypothesis is more believeable. They don't all run a VP, they share recoprocating pistons... Chuck (aka Duluth Diesel) Replied to my message on DCDF forum that he's using the AmsOil Interceptor at one pint per fill up & no problems. He didn't specify the gallonage so we can't figure the ratio. I used 1 quart for my first fill up with Penzoil "Syn blend" but that is too rich for the 128:1 in the 24 diesel gallons I added, though not so much for the tank load since I'd not run the mix before. I will cut the oil added next time to 24 oz (1.5 pt). I have not got back with Chuck since I am new to this and am still working up the dino... This appeals to the scientist / explorer in me... very :smartI continue to thank MoparMan Michael for bringing this thought provoking subject forward.Russ

[Mopar1973Man]

:thumbsup This is what I love listen too... Now I'm on the learning curve with other members! :thumbsup

[DuluthDiesel]

It is engineered to burn extremely cleanly at temperatures that are very similar to ULSD. I feel that it is the best 2 stroke product for this application, and I continue to use it. It costs more, and I understand that is an issue. But since it lubricates better than conventional products and is said to burn cleaner, and that I've run it quite a while now with zero issues, I feel the increased cost is worth the protection. AMSOIL makes some amazing products and they have always proved to be worth it. Cheaper than a VP44, that's for sure. Due to the better lubricity, I feel that you can use a pint (half a quart) of Interceptor per tank and get the same benefits as a full quart of a conventional 2 stroke. This is because you can run a 1:100 mix of Interceptor in an engine that is designed for a 1:50 mix of conventional 2 stroke oil and still get better engine protection. Based on that fact from AMSOIL, I feel that running 1 pint is more than sufficient VP44 protection. Since I get 2 tank loads out of 1 quart, the increased cost is negated. -ChuckAMSOIL Direct Jobber

[Guest]

are you using the same Amsoil 2cycle for the winter months?

[Guest]

I speak from experience I run amsoil Interseptor in my f350 now since the use of two cycle was brought to my attetion and also in my sleds and a few years ago I had to remove my power valves on my sleds every year and clean them, once I started using Amsoil I pulled the valves to clean and all I had to do is wipe them down no scraping oil and carbon deposits them at all very,very clean. That is why I chose to run this in my truck. But I'm also wondering if the additive can be reduced from 1 oz per gal to possibly 1/2oz per gal.

[Mopar1973Man]

Duluth Diesel was posting about dropping down to 1/2 quart to a tank on his truck...

[Guest]

Has anyone looked at their turbo after running 2 cycle oil. Just wounder if there could be any deposits for the 2 cycle oil and if syn would have less desposits. I run a F250 that had a history of sticking vanes before I started using 2 cycle oil. I will say the turbo has been fine for the last year.Donovan

[Guest]

If it's TCW3 it should be very clean ( or no dirtier than running #2 diesel). Even in two stoke gas engines it burns cleanly with no deposits or soot.MikeyB

[dorkweed]

For all those who are concerned about running 2 stroke oil, I have this to say.........Many of you probably have never pulled apart a 2 cycle engine; one designed to run on anywhere from 32:1 to 50:1 of fuel to oil have you?????? Well I've taken apart many, and have never, ever seen deposits, carbon, gunk whatever you want to call it anywhere in the combustion chamber of a well maintained, properly running 2 cycle engine. If anything, most people add TOO MUCH oil to these engines and cause the air/fuel mixture to be over rich in oil. I've never seen a "carboned" up spark plug from a 2 cycle engine that was properly maintained. Even improperly maintained, the spark plug tends to be wet with oil and not "carboned" up as many of you think!!!

Where this carboned up stuff and gunking up of injectors and such comes from is beyond me. The heat from a diesel engine should burn away any deposits (if there to start) in the cylinder and keep any from forming. Much moreso than in a gasser. If you've got carboned up injectors, you're not working your Cummins truck hard enough. And a full throttle zip from a stop sign is not working the mighty Cummins either!!!! :smart I'm talking pulling a trailer day in and day out....here and there.......up that mountain/hill and down the other side. Get those EGT's hot enough, for long enough to burn that carbon (if any) off the injector tips!!!

And for those who insist on using PS, MMO, and any of the other so called "diesel additives", to "CLEAN OUT" the fuel system.......Can any of you tell me why the fuel system needs to be cleaned out???? Isn't that what your FUEL FILTERS are for????? :smart Some of the logic you all seem to spew just leaves me shaking my head. :?: Some of you truly don't know how these engines work IMHO!!! If you're on the fence; listen and read what Mopar1973Man has been telling you all now for over a year now. Do you truly believe that he'd start a website "DEDICATED" to the benefits of using 2 stroke oil as a diesel additive for almost 0 dollars if he wasn't sure it'd benefit you all???? He's not a "corporate" guy just looking at $$ signs either. Just a regular DUDE like most of you all and me trying to make a living!!

If I've offended anyone reading this, I DON'T CARE!!! I'm not a PC dude, and I think this country would be a whole lot better off if everyone else wasn't so PC either!!! Sorry for the rant!!!! :smart B)

MikeyB.......Welcome aboard, I've always valued your inputs on the "other" forum!!! :thumbsup

[Mopar1973Man]

Thank you Dorkweed...Wonderful post there! :thumbsup

[keydl]

Well dorkweed is ranting on 'cleaning' a diesel fuel system and failed to describe the main reason that they need cleaned - running in hot and shutting down with the pistons still hot. That cokes the fuel in the tips, with good fuel and a full flow through the tip the coke will be worn away, but they want to drive them the same as a gas engine. The one thing to do not to need to 'clean' the fuel system is ease in the last 5 or 10 min coming off the road. Unless you live at the top of the pass and drag a full load home it should be 2-3 min to drop the pyrometer under 400 deg with the engine oil temp matching the coolant so that there is not a major amount of heat to soak to the fuel.The additives for increasing the cetane # were originally sold for when the fire would not light consistantly - a random miss with a cold engine. If the miss is regular there is normally a mechanical fault but a random miss that clears with a quart of gas in 50 gallons of fuel is the proof of low cetane. Gas is a no-no when the mechanic talks to the customer so the additive is on the shelf. This is a long time back, by the 60's I didn't find ANY bad fuel other than that pulled from the bone yard that was 5-10 years old. But there is profit to be made selling the stuff so the salesmen generate pitches to sell the stuff, the shop selling usually has a spiff for the mechanic as well and pretty soon they believe in the stuff. With the sulphur and the people that tapped the heating oil tank before the dye the additives caused no harm other than the cost. The only constant is change and all of the sales pitch for additives needs to change but there are a lot of people that have their paycheck hooked to the market and they do not want to change.The synthetic 2 cycle prevents cylinder wall scoring every time at 100:1 and most to the time at 200:1 ( I think that that is what they did because the machine survived one top up of the mix gas but not the second 400:1? I don't know exactly) diluting premix with mower gas is one of the ways to get gas in the car. I would advocate either starting low 4-500:1 or cutting back to find where the curve in the chart starts. I think that at least 1000 miles to get a point on the chart would be a fairly easy run to get multiple inputs. Gallons per 1000 miles with a note of the season because chilly weather and the fuel that goes with it raise the gallons per 1000 miles. I watched one person use the tank capacity and the trip odometer to figure MPG Another listed miles to low fuel light that will cost him in the future sometime.- the fuel cools the lift pump or the station may be out.I ran across some pints of 2 cycle and refill them from the gallon so now I just stop a little sooner and drop in a pint for 16 gal rather than pour the oz in the fill hose after pumping, the low light turns on about 24 gal, another easy measure with the pints.I smile at the frustration of the people that thought that they could force the early retirement of old diesels the same that they killed the cars with the unleaded gas but this time they were smarter and put the heating fuel off limits with dye rather than a restricter in the fuel fill. Or untill somebody finds a bleaching chemical. These are the same people that refuse to 'time' lights to create traffic congestion so they get more money for the roads. They say it 'can't be done' but they did it in the 50's and took the signs down in the 80's. I guess the concept of 40 foot per second divided into x feet to the next light won't fit into their computer.I guess this turned into a half rantkeydl

[keydl]

First for the information to be easily replicated ( think science ) the record keeping needs to be consistantand resistant to distraction. Having driven commercially the bookkeeper wants the receipts and is not inclined to pay the miles until the paperwork is in good order.If the fuel gage works or the trip odometer works there is a good guess as to the amount of a fill up. I found it hard to measure oz fron a gallon jug that did not remain the same shape so I got some pints and refill them.Just below 1/2 fuel gage is 16 gallon, fuel low light is 23. Another way is to add ozs and pump gallons or a $50is 16 2/3 gallon - get a bag of peanuts and a drink and its 16 gallons = 1 pint. But I am a slacker and just add the pint for $50. But when the low fuel winks once the 23 gallons gets 24 ozs so it is close. I collect a receiptfrom habit and if distracted toss a scrap sheet with what I remember in with the rest. One of the things that I have used this for is maint because if the fuel use goes up there is something not working right, a drop of 8-12%can be a partially plugged injector especially if the boost is low by 2-3 # or it could be the current need if anair cleaner element.Because there are quite a few that say no improvement and some have a gap in the data that they presentfrom format as in quoting tank capacity for fuel amount rather than fuel pumped for a full tank or consumptionper time period.rather than distance. Uncorrected oversize tires can be allowed for with a GPS reading or a highway yardstick( Mile Marker) comparison to the odometer reading.The AMSOIL claim that the 100:1 can be fed to 20:1 engines would indicate that it may be possible to use 1/5ththe amount of the dino stuff. I haven't anything that old but have used it in a 32:1 chainsaw for a couple of long weeks and no problems, that is 1/4 of the dino oil recommended.I don't know if a direct comparison would work, whether some remains for a half tank or a tank as well as theheel in the tank ( intended to isolate contaminates, it is possible to tap the last tablespoon from the tank but that would collect the water first every time). That is why the advocacy for 3-4 fillups with each and all runsfor results. So fillups of 21, 22, 22, 23 mpg looks like 22.5 and not 22 because of the trend. And 23, 22, 22, 21looks like trouble, look for the thing breaking.I think that I will stay with the dino for another 14k fir a total of 20 k and look at the maint log and fuel records.With a history on dino 2 cycle to compare the synthetic to I would cut the ratio on the synthetic until the other numbers looked like the dino numbers. I can see a real possibility of saving money by spending money, the costto find out? The difference in cost of a couple of gallons and 3-4 hours keyboarding to push the numbers around.With a spread sheet - column for fuel gallons, odometer read, MPG, full average MPG, average last 10 MPG, fuel cost and fuel cost per mile. Since columns are cheap I might put monthly cost and others if you have ideas.So if somebody wants to start on the other end and start with 1/4 oz synthetic and work up there would be noproblems accounting for the heel in treating the tank, just add for capacity plus the fillup at each level and stop when there are no further benefits from more 2cycle for a couple of tanks.I would be very interested if someone works up this way. One other thing - the 2% biodiesel was best at lube for raw ULSD fuel and the snowmobile 2cycle prevents gelling so the addition of synthetic 2cycle to straight biodiesel to see if it prevents gelling or how much it takes to cure geling. A half gallon with a half pint in a 5 qt oil jug in a -10 environment ( my freezer won'tmake it and something is real wrong if the back yard does) leaves room to add either stuff to find a -10 pour point or cloud point. The real cost in the cold country is time because the mix will be truck fuelafter looking at it. :)keydl

[Mopar1973Man]

Thank you Keydl for the long post...

We need another volenteer to dig in and help out with Keydl's idea here... I can't do it because I'm biased of the 2 cycle oil all ready... LOL

My research started at 85K miles and I didn't get the 128:1 ratio figured out till about 95K miles...

Here is my MPG logs

Here is my cost per mile

[dorkweed]

I've actually dropped my 2 stroke amount to 16oz/1gal because many of the stations around me are anywhere from 2-11%bio. However,on my hunting trip to North Dakota, my truck got great mileage even loaded to the gills and pulling a small 5x8 trailer. Don't know that I'd be a good choice to experiment because of the bio-surprise I may or may not get at the pump!!!

[Guest]

I'm a little puzzled by Chucks' math in the above post regarding the mix ratio of the Amsoil Interceptor product. Using 29ozs. of conventional 2 cycle oil per 34 gallons of fuel yields a ratio of approximately 150:1. If I understand him correctly, we could use 15ozs. of the Interceptor oil to achieve the same or better lubricity; however the mix ratio then becomes 290:1. Normally I put in 25 gallons of fuel and 20ozs of 2 cycle oil. This yield a mix ratio of 160:1. If I used the Interceptor oil then I would put in 10ozs of that which would equate to 320:1. Will someone please enlighten me where I'm going astray.