Need Someone Creative

[ISX]

I cannot figure out a format to make this work how I want. It's a tree of wires meaning you start with the shutoff solenoid with 3 wires coming out of it. I have the wire colors listed in the orange and then I have where the wire goes. If the wire goes to its final destination, it is colored red (as is the case for the ground). If not, it is green meaning you can keep going. Each orange being the wire to the next destination from the last green cell followed by the new destination under the orange.

Simple, until you end up with something that does not leave with just one. The shutoff solenoid relay being the 3rd wire is listed with 3 orange wires coming out of it. Because there was the brown wire coming from the shutoff itself, this means there is a total of 4 wires coming out of the relay. So I list the other 3 since they are all possible culprits. Each one terminates except the last one, so not much of a problem, yet.

If we use the middle wire for example, it would be traced like this. LT GRN/BLK wire comes out of FSS and goes to fuse block, it then goes from the fuse block along a DK BLU wire to the ignition switch, it then from the ignition switch along a red wire to fuse 3, it then goes from fuse 3 along a red wire to the battery. At that point there are no more places to go, so it terminates.

Then the starter motor relay has another 3 wires and now it starts to get ugly. If the one didn't terminate at the battery, I would have 2 wires not terminating and it would create a list that you wouldn't know which came from where. I made a gap between the 2 to make it easier for the time being.

Because of this variable multiplying, something as simple as a family tree design doesn't seem to work with excel's "cell" format.

Do you guys have any idea, even if you don't think it could be done in excel, that could make it work perfectly?

[ISX]

Here's another design that has no flaws other than just not flowing as well. I like how the other one is a "one right after the other" flow chart thing. So, I hate this one also.

[Wild and Free]

I am a bit confused as to what you are trying to accomplish that the schematics don't already show.

[Mopar1973Man]

I am a bit confused as to what you are trying to accomplish that the schematics don't already show.

I tend to agree...

[ISX]

That picture is actually the proof.... Post a picture of everything that makes the shutoff solenoid work and now you have to scan all over the million pages of schematics. It was the biggest PITA ever to wire my truck when each component is repeated over several pages. One wire is here, one wire is there. I just want to make everything easier to figure out. If the FSS doesn't work then it could be any number of relays, fuses, or even the wire on the positive battery terminal (had it corrode off on me). If you trace it out on the schematic it takes forever. I hate beating my head against the wall trying to find every page that the FSS or any of its components is listed on. Yesterday I went through every single page of the schematics and listed every single thing that was a thing. Every fuse, every switch, every light, every sensor, every relay, every motor.......EVERYTHING. I added the things as I saw them as I scrolled down the schematics, writing the page number next to the component. There are 198 components.... Most are listed on several pages. A lot of things do not even account for some wires. The relay for the starter solenoid is like that, you have to look at 2 or 3 pages to even see all the wires that go to it. So if you found it on one page and assumed there were only 2 wires, you would be missing out on the other 2 and miss a potential problem. The spreadsheet I made with all those items is a HUGE help. I was in a chat room the other day telling someone about it and he had never seen the schematic. I showed it to them and then I showed them the spreadsheet and they quickly figured out why I made a spreadsheet. To trace something out in all its entirety takes forever. I want to be able to click on the component and see everything tied into it, instantly. I hate wasting time on stuff that could be made easier. If I was a complete nerd I would make a 3d high def picture of the truck with all the wires in it like manufacturers show with engines on youtube with their animations. You could click on what you wanted and it would show just all the wires that ran it. But I am not that smart.

[bjytech]

Made this up in OpenOffice Draw tonight, this kinda what you are looking for ISX? PDF is attached for better viewing as well as the .odg file if you want to play around with what I have made already. Editable .odg file: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/992624/FSS_wiring.odg

FSS_wiring.pdf

[ISX]

That did make me think of it differently. In a good way! I just am trying to get it to flow. You can kinda see how yours is still a little bit of lines going everywhere. Basically in my first drawing with the black, the middle wire that stairsteps down is just incredible, but that hardly ever works like that. But what you did is a big leap cause I didn't think of combining things like you did. I also like other things you did. I just gotta stare at it some more Thanks for doing all that! Wasn't expecting anyone to go that far. Much appreciated.

[bjytech]

I know what you mean, its hard to get these wiring diagrams to flow nicely, the first attempt I made was alot more of a mess than the one that I showed in my last post.

[Wild and Free]

There is a science behind schematics and engineers at different companies have different reasons for the different style of schematics they use and it varies between countries as well.

I like the block schematics as to what you are trying to achieve which shows the entire rig on one single page, the problem with this is they are huge and get overwhelming to read unless they are laminated and you have dry erase markers to outline and trace out the circuits, What Dodge does is a combination of Block and ladder where they break out sections or seperate functions and then chase you to a different page for many different wires.

Then there are ladder schematics where you can chase individual wires through subsequent pages but these wind up being a 100 page novel schematic. There are no perfect schematics I can say as I use about every style weekly, there are pros and cons to every style.

You have to remember the basics of electrical theory and troubleshoting and you eliminate the need for doing what you are trying to do, That is why there are troubleshooting guides in the service manuals to help follow set problems.

From what I see is you get too caught up in the science of the details you forget the basics, You are looking through a spotting scope to see the ant on the hill half a mile away when it is actually crawling up your nose.

[ISX]

There is a science behind schematics and engineers at different companies have different reasons for the different style of schematics they use and it varies between countries as well.

I like the block schematics as to what you are trying to achieve which shows the entire rig on one single page, the problem with this is they are huge and get overwhelming to read unless they are laminated and you have dry erase markers to outline and trace out the circuits, What Dodge does is a combination of Block and ladder where they break out sections or seperate functions and then chase you to a different page for many different wires.

Then there are ladder schematics where you can chase individual wires through subsequent pages but these wind up being a 100 page novel schematic. There are no perfect schematics I can say as I use about every style weekly, there are pros and cons to every style.

You have to remember the basics of electrical theory and troubleshoting and you eliminate the need for doing what you are trying to do, That is why there are troubleshooting guides in the service manuals to help follow set problems.

From what I see is you get too caught up in the science of the details you forget the basics, You are looking through a spotting scope to see the ant on the hill half a mile away when it is actually crawling up your nose.

Yes I realize they get long and that is why I am still testing ideas. I don't care about other components, only components that make or break the component I select. If I pick FSS, I only want to see the stuff I have listed. There are other things that hook up to those wires, but the FSS does not depend on them, so I do not list them. I went through every single page the other day so I could list each component and I would say most things would have a list like what we have here, it wouldn't be much longer than that. So if there was a way to perfect it with just that, then I think it would be ideal, fast and efficient to find problems. Right now when someone asks uhh well I know there is a backup fuse thread on here. Well if it wasn't the fuse causing the light to be out, and not the bulb, then I shudder to think of having to go through all the pages on the schematic. The idea of finding it is simple but the time spent finding it and tracing everything is unnecessary. So if you only have to follow the trees in the forest with the red marks on them, rather than getting lost in the whole damn forest, you can have the problem fixed in no time.

And yes I realize I make everything difficult and detailed but I see a difference. On every forum there are the same questions, and theres tons of forums out there. Everyone wants to know why their nose itches and everyone says "theres an ant in it". Alright simple enough. Flick it off. Oh wait, the ant comes back... Or, why did the ant get there in the first place.. I don't care about problems that are apparent, I care about how to eliminate them altogether. If I can see the ants a mile away and see that they are coming towards me, I can walk over there and fumigate the anthill. Problem solved. As far as everything I do trying to be unnecessarily dead nuts...why can't it be perfect? I'm not trying to push it on anyone as I know it's unnecessary, but I want that damn thing to get 40MPG and every little thing that we let "get by" adds up.

I just think everything COULD be prevented if we looked at the fine details, the anthill in the distance, rather than just fixing the obvious problems all the time. I go through my truck all the time for no reason. The only problem I have ever had was a water pump go out and a tire blow out on me. The tire thing coulda been prevented and I'm not sure about the water pump since it just went out instantly all of a sudden. But tons of other issues that happen to people are completely preventable if they would only learn about the causes of things.

There is a thread on CF about what to bring with you on a 1900 mile trip, and they listed everything but a spare truck. I mean really, to me that was obvious that they have no clue when anything is going to go out. I know the condition of everything on my truck, I know what is questionable and if its to the point that I even have a lot of doubts then I would carry a replacement. My jeeps belt is questionable to the point I have doubts, I have a spare one and the tools to change it in the back seat.

Oh and the problem sets in manuals just tell you to check this and that which means your back at the wiring diagrams and next thing you know you've got 30 minutes wrapped up in finding the problem, confirming the problem, finding where the problem is, finding it in the schematic... I know most people think spending time is part of the fixing process but I can't stand it. If it can be done faster, than I will figure out how. I spend a ton of time on this crap but if that means making something that helps the next person save an hour, then it's worth it to me. Theres a million threads on CF reiterating the same crap the same way that does nothing but tell you to chase your tail in circles. Then I can post a video and the problem is solved. So there is an easier way, I provided it, saved them an hour, it was worth it. Why constantly do crap in ways that suck when there are better things out there if people just took the time. An hour burned here could be a week saved in a years time.

[Wild and Free]

"I just think everything COULD be prevented if we looked at the fine details"Like an old timer once told me a long time ago, " If everything on this world that was built perfect we would all be out of work"If there is Even one single wire in a circuit that goes to some other place it has to be a possible lead for troubleshooting, I have seen bad grounds or shorted wires at one end of a machine that totally threw other component out of whack because they share a common connector or connection at some other component in the middle. It happens more than one would think.I wish the automotive industry would get with the game like the industrial end has for troubleshooting, on Komatsu equipment the service manual breaks out every single connector on a machine and gives testing procedures with a multimeter looking for voltage, grounds or ohms ect and results to be able to isolate an exact problem in every single wire and electrical component on the machine.

[ISX]

Yes I can see other wires causing shorts but I would think a novice could determine where there was and wasn't voltage. Most of the things were spliced together at ground or fuses. But having rewired my truck I have seen the "finnnnne" job dodge did splicing wires together :doh:But I see your point and will see what I can think of. I just think the schematics are still a far cry from perfection. As far as perfect things go, that has been taken to its limits... We have cars MADE to break. Everything is made to break these days because old stuff was made to last a long time and that means there are things 100 years old that still run fine. Now you can't even rebuild an engine, they are throwaways. And I have a huge problem with that. The percentage spent on innovation compared to fixing things is like 1% to 99% whereas in the old days it was probably 20%/80%. People were making tvs, and computers and all kinds of crap. In these books I have, the common rail principal was made in the 80's...... They just didn't have the technology to make these pieze injectors. We have been working off old principals for decades. Computer processors have transistors in them measuring 22nm now, they said they are capable of making them 5nm. An atom is 0.1-0.5nm in diameter....... computers have the technology so why are we still messing around with incredibly lax engine tolerances. The injectors are precise, yet we can't even filter the dirt out of the fuel? Unbelievable. That's how I see things. No attention to detail except in certain areas, complete ignorance of detail in others. The crappy things destroy the precise things.