Where is the line between too small and too big?

[AH64ID]

In my trucks case the tires dictate the GVWR. I haven't followed the new (4th gen) trucks enough to know if that's still the limiting case but I bet it is.

I'm pretty sure the highest payload truck is a regular cab 2x4, not a crewcab 4x4.

 

 

Did tires dictate GVWR or RAWR?

 

I am guessing its RAWR, and your FAWR + RAWR < GVWR.

 

My axle is rated for 10,912lbs SRW or DRW, per AAM. Yet Dodge had at least 3 ratings on door stickers. 6,010 on a 2500 Diesel, 6,200 on a 3500 SRW and 9,350 on a DRW. The 3500 SRW is just below tire limits, the 2500 is below  a SRW for marketing purposes and IMHO the DRW is based on suspension/frame limits.

[Mopar1973Man]

Your GVWR isn't 13,400... it's 8,800. The labels aren't there, but it looks GVWR/Engine/Trans/Gears/GCWR/SWB max tow/LWB max tow.

 

GVWR of the trailer not the truck. I'm rated to tow 13,400# worth of trailer. If I input your numbers then everything is way off.

 

Max 5th Wheel Towing - 6,500#   (Right!)

Max Conventional Towing -10,400#  Still way low from book.

 

[diesel4life]

Did tires dictate GVWR or RAWR?

You are correct, they dictate the RAWR.

[diesel4life]

Mike that is how I understood the calculator, was to plug in the truck GVWR. It didn't specify so I assumed they were asking for the trucks GVWR.

[David W Gray]

In my trucks case the tires dictate the GVWR. I haven't followed the new (4th gen) trucks enough to know if that's still the limiting case but I bet it is.

I'm pretty sure the highest payload truck is a regular cab 2x4, not a crewcab 4x4.

 

1. Considering the case between 2500 and 3500 with the identical engine and transmission, here are the most likely weak links that would reduce GVWR and/or GCWR: frame, gear ratio, springs, brakes, wheels, and tires. Starting with the 2014 Rams, the frame is identical for 2500 and 3500.

2. I did not say payload. I said tow rating. There is a difference. But you are right about payload:

REGULAR CAB LONG BOX 4X2 ST / TRADESMAN DRW (3500)

6.4L GAS MID DUTY - ESA 6-SPD AUTO 66RFE – DFP

Payload = 7,320

 

Late add:

 

If we based the tow rating for the payload of 7,320 pounds for the truck above @ 20% PW, then it could tow 36,600 pounds if the GCWR was ignored. Not a good idea, you think?

Edited September 30, 2014 by TheTowMaster

[David W Gray]

GVWR of the trailer not the truck. I'm rated to tow 13,400# worth of trailer. If I input your numbers then everything is way off.

 

Max 5th Wheel Towing - 6,500#   (Right!)

Max Conventional Towing -10,400#  Still way low from book.

 

 

Read the directions. All weight entries are about the tow vehicle. Not the trailer.

But this is good to know how some mistakes are made. Site updated.

[diesel4life]

I was referring to tow rating as well. Correct me if I am wrong here, but isn't the 30k GCWR only available with the regular cab 4x2?

In no way was I trying to nit pick your site (I sense it is) It is always better to er on the side of safety. I can't tell you how many 1/2 ton trucks I see here during camping season hauling big 5th wheels and TT's.

[David W Gray]

I was referring to tow rating as well. Correct me if I am wrong here, but isn't the 30k GCWR only available with the regular cab 4x2?

In no way was I trying to nit pick your site (I sense it is) It is always better to er on the side of safety. I can't tell you how many 1/2 ton trucks I see here during camping season hauling big 5th wheels and TT's.

 

Oops! Some how when copying and pasting from the chart, I guess I moved the page. I corrected the above. Yes you are correct about the regular cab. Sorry, it's been a busy day.

 

Oh no, it's not nit picking at all. I'm here to learn as well as teach. It's all good for me.

[Mopar1973Man]

Read the directions. All weight entries are about the tow vehicle. Not the trailer.

But this is good to know how some mistakes are made. Site updated.

 

Then I'd better sell my Cummins and buy a Ford...

 

[David W Gray]

http://www.legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/Title49/T49CH10SECT49-1002PrinterFriendly.htm

 

That is partial information. The complete Title 49, Chapter 10 is here.

 

I browsed quickly and there appears to be discussion about other load ratings as well.

 

I'm calling it a night. I'll look into it more tomorrow. It's been a good day.

[AH64ID]

GVWR of the trailer not the truck. I'm rated to tow 13,400# worth of trailer. If I input your numbers then everything is way off.

 

Max 5th Wheel Towing - 6,500#   (Right!)

Max Conventional Towing -10,400#  Still way low from book.

 

 

Michael, those numbers are correct. Your book tow rating is based on GCWR minus basic curb weight and a 150 lb driver. Each pound you add to the truck takes 1 pound from your tow rating. Your 13,400 is based on a "delivery" weight of 6,350lbs. Your GVW is 1K over that, effecting your tow rating based on GVWR.

The painfully low GVWR is what does it. With a GVW of 7300 you only have 1500lbs of payload per the door sticker. Take 200lbs out for you and you have 1300lbs available for a pin weight or tongue weight, assuming the hitch is included in your GVW. 1300/.20 = 6500 lbs for a 5er and 1300/.13 = 10,000lbs conventional. Higher or lower pin/tongue weights will effect your tow rating.

You have found out what most owners have, GVWR limits tow rating long before GCWR.

This is why I dislike the way 2500 and 3500 SRW trucks get this GVWR, as they are severely underrated from design spec. Change your GVWR to the 11K a DRW has and see what that does.

 

Starting with the 2014 Rams, the frame is identical for 2500 and 3500.

 

That didn't start in 2014, it started in 2003 and probably sooner. 2013 is the only year in recent history with different frames for 2500 and 3500. The 2013 2500 used up the last of the 03-13 frames.

Your 2008 DRW has the same frame as my 2005 3500 SRW CTD, my dads 2006 2500 CTD, and my brothers 2006 2500 Hemi. The diesels also share the same brakes, steering, and front axle. The front axle on the hemi is the same, but the rear axle is smaller.

 

I was referring to tow rating as well. Correct me if I am wrong here, but isn't the 30k GCWR only available with the regular cab 4x2?

  

Cab and drive config only effects tow rating, not GCWR.

That is partial information. The complete Title 49, Chapter 10 is here.

 

I browsed quickly and there appears to be discussion about other load ratings as well.

 

I'm calling it a night. I'll look into it more tomorrow. It's been a good day.

Yeah, just the tire part. The only statue I have ever found that talks about axle weight rating is for tag axles. All other axles fall under standard axle limits and tire limits.

[Mopar1973Man]

Hold on a sec. Pin weight of 1,100 pounds which is 20% of the 5,500 trailer weight. My rear axle is only around 2,860 to 3,200 with GAWR of 6,084# so... even using my high number 3,200 + 1,100 = 4,300 pounds... Hua? Nowhere near axle weight rating.

 

Just adding the front and rear GAWR is 5200 + 6084 = 11,284... Here comes back the 11,000 number you mentioned... Which now re-run the tow check its 5th wheel 12,300 and conv. trailer is 12,500 again.

[AH64ID]

Yup, nowhere near the axle rating but you would be over GVWR. On most vehicles on the road GVWR is an important number, but IMHO not so important on the SRW 2500 and 3500 trucks.

But many people believe that GVWR is not a negotiable limit, they aren't wrong but also they aren't right. If you go off of GVWR then the remaining payload will dictate the trailer. If you, MoparMom, and Diesel are in the pickup and a couple bags of gear then you might only be able to tow a 5500lb 5er amd stay within GVWR. If you do like most and use RAWR then you could tow much heavier.

The 11,000 number I posted is the DRW GVWR. I am fairly certain that 2nd generation 2500s and 3500s use the same frame. That means your frame is also rated for 11,000 and you would be safe to operate at that weight. If you exceed the RAWR then suspension enhancements may be needed, along with wheels and tires.

It's all gray math, but the data is available to determine true max safe loads.

[David W Gray]

 

That didn't start in 2014, it started in 2003 and probably sooner. 2013 is the only year in recent history with different frames for 2500 and 3500. The 2013 2500 used up the last of the 03-13 frames.

 

Yeah, now that I try to find what I read last month, I can't find it. But I could have misread it anyhow. What I did find is that for the 2013 Ram; they upgraded the frames from 35 ksi steel frame to 50 ksi steel frame. What I thought I read was that the 2500s where upgraded to the same as the 3500s. However, I think I'm set straight on this issue.

Therefore, I suppose I could take the frame issue out of one of the weakest link possibilities.

Edited September 30, 2014 by TheTowMaster

[David W Gray]

 Yeah, just the tire part. The only statue I have ever found that talks about axle weight rating is for tag axles. All other axles fall under standard axle limits and tire limits.

 

After looking over the Idaho Statutes, Title 49, Chapter 10, it appears that only the tire load limitation is mentioned. This is actually the first I’ve seen like this. I suppose there are other states with similar statutes.

The bottom line is; LEOs do not enforce compliance with anything written on the Certification Label. The only laws that pertain to  maximum weight mostly apply to the big commercial trucks. Generally, RVers will never come close to reaching those kinds of weight.

Therefore…

Can an RVer tow or transport loads over the Certification Label weights? Absolutely.

Can an RVer modify their vehicle to increase the load or towing capacity? Absolutely. (Here's an article about that: http://goo.gl/gyYtYI)

Does everyone need to comply with the results of the RV Tow Check? Absolutely not!

RV Tow Check is nothing more than a tool.

Is RV Tow Check better than any published towing guide? Absolutely.

Edited September 30, 2014 by TheTowMaster

[AH64ID]

Yeah, now that I try to find what I read last month, I can't find it. But I could have misread it anyhow. What I did find is that for the 2013 Ram; they upgraded the frames from 35 ksi steel frame to 50 ksi steel frame. What I thought I read was that the 2500s where upgraded to the same as the 3500s. However, I think I'm set straight on this issue.

Therefore, I suppose I could take the frame issue out of one of the weakest link possibilities.

 

Yeah the 03-12 frame was 35K psi for 2500/3500. The 2013 3500 received the new 50K psi frame, while the 2013 2500 stayed with the 35K psi frame. In 2014 both trucks where on the 50K psi frame.

[AH64ID]

The bottom line is; LEOs do not enforce compliance with anything written on the Certification Label. The only laws that pertain to  maximum weight mostly apply to the big commercial trucks. Generally, RVers will never come close to reaching those kinds of weight.

 

 

Correct. That is why it's important for people to know the actual ratings for their vehicles if they plan to exceed any of the door sticker numbers.

[AH64ID]

One more thing to add about too big or too small.

 

Be sure to consider the places you tow. If it just on regular roads/highways to a campground with hookups then any length will suffice. If you like to boondock a bigger camper can hinder that.

 

We expected to have a little more troube getting our 30' TT into some of the places we took out 22' TT, but we actually didn't. The only reason we didn't was ground clearance, we gained a LOT. I had to raise the ball on my WDH 4.5" to make the trailer sit level, and then added a 1" taller ball which gave me another 5/8" of height at the tongue. All of that 5" of clearance was below the frame rail, as the tongue design was the same. The new trailer has flipped axles stock, and 225/75R15 tires.

 

Two other things effects towing mileage, and IMHO stability, the enclosed underbelly and length of tongue. A shorter tongue means less air between the truck and camper, and the enclose underbelly allows the air to flow smoothly underneath. Both of those will help a big trailer tow smaller, on flat ground. My longer and heavier TT tows about the same on flat ground as the shorter/lighter one, since the shorter one had a longer tongue and no enclosed underbelly.